Was Rebellion Inevitable?

[MadDoc]

Curze just so happens to have dark and bleak visions, and that just so happens to ultimately drive him into the arms of Chaos. How convenient life sometimes can be. Chaos gets an additional Primarch without having to lift a finger. :tu:

Of course. Silly me, how dare I presume to disagree with the great Legatus... :)

 

Which, incidentally, was also most likely Chaos.

Or more likely a simple product of the psychic gifts that ALL of the Primarchs inherited as a legacy of their Emperor derived genetics (which they chose to exercise to a greater or lesser degree, with some having abilties which were subconscious/unconscious manifestations of that gift, ala Corax's "invisibility" or Russ' psychic scream/warshout).

[Perrin]

Or... just from the warp, same as all psykers/astropaths get their powers from. Not all of the warp is chaos. They could even have got their mutations from the Emperor's DNA that was involved in their creation.

Psykers are born usually due to a form of genetic mutation. Since the Primarchs were genetically engineered, it seems unlikely that they would just randomly have developed such psychic traits. That the Emperor had intentionally engineered them with such abilities is a possibility. But then why did he not give them to all of them? And why would he have given Curze such a detrimental power? The far more likely explanation is that those abilities developed due to the touch of Chaos during the Primarchs' incubation stage, which is well documented as having had siginificant effects on Primarchs such as Sanguinius or Magnus.

 

Never seen anywhere that Sanguinius' wings are from the touch of chaos, even implied. Only possible causes I've ever read are the high levels of radiation on Baal and genetic design by the Emperor. The Emperor not giving the abilities to all of the Primachs is the same reason he didn't make them all to the same design, they needed to be different so they could all adapt to different circumstances and fulfil different roles. It is also possible that Curzes abilities were from an unforeseen genetic mutation, or even from exposure to the warp when in his pod. Again, the warp, not chaos.

[Legatus]

Never seen anywhere that Sanguinius' wings are from the touch of chaos, even implied.

"The pod that housed the infant Sanguinius came to rest upon the surface of Baal Secundus, at the place now known as Angel's Fall. The Infant Primarch was found by one of the wandering tribes of humans who called themselves the Folk of Pure Blood, or simply the Blood. The young Sanguinius' life almost came to an end then and there, for the touch of Chaos had changed him. Tiny vestigial wings, like those of an angel, emerged from his back. Many wanted to kill the child as a mutant, while others wanted to absolve the boy, for in all other ways he was as perfect a child as had ever been seen. Eventually innate compassion prevaled and the child was spared."

(5th Edition Codex Blood Angels, p. 10)

In case you feel compelled to ascribe that bit to Matt Ward, that passage is taken almost 1/1 from the 2nd Edition Codex Angels of Death, page 18.

 

The 5th Edition Space Marines Codex has some more information on that matter (taken from the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, page 11)

"According to legend the Emperor created the Primarchs from artificially engineered genes, carefully imbuing each of them with unique superhuman powers. Legend goes on to tell how the Dark Gods of Chaos spirited away the Primarchs within their incubator capsules, scattering them widely throughout the Warp. More than one of the capsules was breached whilst it drifted through Warpspace - the forces of the Warp leaked in, wreaking havoc to the developing genetic material inside the capsule. Undoubtedly damage was done, although the nature of that damage would not become apparent until the Horus Heresy."

(5th Edition Codex Space Marines, p. 12)

 

The Emperor not giving the abilities to all of the Primachs is the same reason he didn't make them all to the same design, they needed to be different so they could all adapt to different circumstances and fulfil different roles.

They all had pretty much the exact same role, really.

 

 

Edit:

Or more likely a simple product of the psychic gifts that ALL of the Primarchs inherited as a legacy of their Emperor derived genetics (which they chose to exercise to a greater or lesser degree, with some having abilties which were subconscious/unconscious manifestations of that gift, ala Corax's "invisibility" or Russ' psychic scream/warshout).

That all Primarchs had some latent psychic abilities is newfangled BL fluff from the Horus Heresy novels. That Curze had peculiar dark visions and that some primarchs had been affected by Chaos in their incubation capsules is 2nd and 3rd Edition fluff.

[MadDoc]

The 5th Edition Space Marines Codex has some more information on that matter (taken from the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, page 11)

"According to legend the Emperor created the Primarchs from artificially engineered genes, carefully imbuing each of them with unique superhuman powers. Legend goes on to tell how the Dark Gods of Chaos spirited away the Primarchs within their incubator capsules, scattering them widely throughout the Warp. More than one of the capsules was breached whilst it drifted through Warpspace - the forces of the Warp leaked in, wreaking havoc to the developing genetic material inside the capsule. Undoubtedly damage was done, although the nature of that damage would not become apparent until the Horus Heresy."

(5th Edition Codex Space Marines, p. 12)

So new stuff is ok when it supports you, but otherwise its derided as newfangled (BL) fluff and so somehow less relevant? ;)

 

That all Primarchs had some latent psychic abilities is newfangled BL fluff from the Horus Heresy novels. That Curze had peculiar dark visions and that some primarchs had been affected by Chaos in their incubation capsules is 2nd and 3rd Edition fluff.

My bad. Obviously I'm wrong and you're right. I suppose I should just consider myself duly chastened and move along... :P

 

:down:

[Arkangilos]

Two things to say:

No chaos - no Horus being corrupted - betrayal gets a LOT harder deal.

 

Let's be fair, which option is the least trustworthy; the Emperor or Chaos? (Hint: It's not the Emperor.)

Oh really? A bloodthirsty dictator with hue personal ambitions is trustworthy? It is just like asking: Who is more trustworthy: Hitler or Stalin?

 

 

That is no where near the same. Chaos murders for fun, with no real agenda, the Emperor fights, but does not murder, to Unify and Protect humanity.

 

Believe it or not, force is the best way to protect people when the people you want to protect them from use force.

 

So, it is kill or be killed. You can kill to survive, and ultimately the galaxy will be better, or you can kill for fun. Which one would you rather follow?

[Legatus]

So new stuff is ok when it supports you, but otherwise its derided as newfangled (BL) fluff and so somehow less relevant?

First of all, that is not new stuff. It is from 2nd Edition, which I had pointed out.

 

Second, when Curze's visions had been described, it had not yet been the lore that all Primarchs had some form of psychic ability. It had already been the lore that a lot of Primarchs had been touched and affected by Chaos in their incubation capsules. Thus at the time when the Index Astartes of the Night Lords was written, describing Curze's peculiar visions, it is likely that it is meant to be based on that well known chaos touch, and impossible that it is meant to be one of the "common" psyichic abilities which would only be invented much later. Obviously it can now be retconned to have been a common and expected psychic ability, but at the time Curze's visions were first described, that explanation was not possible.

[MadDoc]

Thus at the time when the Index Astartes of the Night Lords was written, describing Curze's peculiar visions, it is likely that it is meant to be based on that well known chaos touch, and impossible that it is meant to be one of the "common" psyichic abilities which would only be invented much later.

Impossible? Thats a pretty big claim since you have no idea what GW have had sitting for years in their story notes on the Primarchs and various other things (quite likely predating the IA articles), things like the twin Primarchs (which nobody knew anything about, but which has apparently been there in GW's Heresy notes for years).

 

You're assuming things because you think you're the only person that can be right. I'm simply offering a well reasoned alternative, without interference from any penchant for bias.

 

Obviously it can now be retconned to have been a common and expected psychic ability, but at the time Curze's visions were first described, that explanation was not possible.

The shared psychic gift isn't necessarily a retcon, just because its the first we're overtly hearing about it doesn't mean diddly.

 

In fact, I think working from the assumption that its a retcon just because you didn't know about it, or assuming that the Primarchs (beings engineered from the genetics of the most powerful human psychic ever) weren't always intended to have psychic potential, is at best naive.

[Legatus]

That Chaos had been tinkered with the Primarchs had been long established in the Marine codices of 2nd Edition. That all rimarchs had innate psychic powers first came up with the Horus Heresy books during 4th Edition.

 

Seriously, suggesting that haunting visions of the future which ultimately drove Curze over the edge were more likely the random chance result of a fluff explanation that would be established years later than of the well known influence of Chaos on the incubated Primarchs doesn't hold much water.

 

We knew that's what Chaos did, long before the Night Lords Index Astartes article was published. It is not only mentioned in conjunction with many of the traitor Primarchs, it is even mentioned in relation to Sanguinius in the Blood Angels sources, and even in the Codex Ultramarines as the basic background for the Primarchs, even though that Codex does not even include any example of one such Primarch.

[Emperors Immortals]

Thus at the time when the Index Astartes of the Night Lords was written, describing Curze's peculiar visions, it is likely that it is meant to be based on that well known chaos touch, and impossible that it is meant to be one of the "common" psyichic abilities which would only be invented much later.

Impossible? Thats a pretty big claim since you have no idea what GW have had sitting for years in their story notes on the Primarchs and various other things (quite likely predating the IA articles), things like the twin Primarchs (which nobody knew anything about, but which has apparently been there in GW's Heresy notes for years).

 

You're assuming things because you think you're the only person that can be right. I'm simply offering a well reasoned alternative, without interference from any penchant for bias.

 

Obviously it can now be retconned to have been a common and expected psychic ability, but at the time Curze's visions were first described, that explanation was not possible.

The shared psychic gift isn't necessarily a retcon, just because its the first we're overtly hearing about it doesn't mean diddly.

 

In fact, I think working from the assumption that its a retcon just because you didn't know about it, or assuming that the Primarchs (beings engineered from the genetics of the most powerful human psychic ever) weren't always intended to have psychic potential, is at best naive.

 

 

With respect, that would also mean Defilers, vindicators and storm talons could have always been there and we didnt know. Along with everything else we dont know about, like El'Johnson penchant for wearing high-heels or Angrons phobia of Pineapples.

[RapatoR]

That is no where near the same. Chaos murders for fun, with no real agenda, the Emperor fights, but does not murder, to Unify and Protect humanity.

 

Believe it or not, force is the best way to protect people when the people you want to protect them from use force.

 

So, it is kill or be killed. You can kill to survive, and ultimately the galaxy will be better, or you can kill for fun. Which one would you rather follow?

That is what Imperium tells. Chaos tells similar story: Humanity cannot survive without it and has to embrace it, while Emp is bad guy who decieved chaos gods and created primarchs using chaos.

 

IMHO they are both just as bad, but because there is Imperial propaganda Emp is described in better light but there are subtle hints of his "badness" (There are no gods, while there are and even he might be trying to become one, then there is: Kill all aliens! Even friendly ones? Why? Well, because!).

[Captain Juan Juarez]

The same place Sanguinius' premonitions came from

Which, incidentally, was also most likely Chaos. At least his wings are specifically said to have been a product of the touch of Chaos.

 

And people laughed when I said he was a mutant...

[Emperors Immortals]

The same place Sanguinius' premonitions came from

Which, incidentally, was also most likely Chaos. At least his wings are specifically said to have been a product of the touch of Chaos.

 

And people laughed when I said he was a mutant...

 

 

Back in the box you!

 

j/k

[Captain Idaho]

That is no where near the same. Chaos murders for fun, with no real agenda, the Emperor fights, but does not murder, to Unify and Protect humanity.

 

Believe it or not, force is the best way to protect people when the people you want to protect them from use force.

 

So, it is kill or be killed. You can kill to survive, and ultimately the galaxy will be better, or you can kill for fun. Which one would you rather follow?

That is what Imperium tells. Chaos tells similar story: Humanity cannot survive without it and has to embrace it, while Emp is bad guy who decieved chaos gods and created primarchs using chaos.

 

IMHO they are both just as bad, but because there is Imperial propaganda Emp is described in better light but there are subtle hints of his "badness" (There are no gods, while there are and even he might be trying to become one, then there is: Kill all aliens! Even friendly ones? Why? Well, because!).

 

Of course they aren't both as bad as each other. Think about it logically; imagine the planet we live on right now is a Daemon World... And you'd be ok with that? Of course not. Compare it to a Hive World; I wouldn't want to live there either, but which would you rather live on?

 

Sure people go all RPG with their favourite faction, but reality tells us something quite different if we're being honest.

 

I honestly can't believe, barring RPG positioning of yourself, that anyone can read the Heresy Novels and not see the benevolence of the Emperor's intentions and (most importantly) his plans for "end game".

[Arkangilos]

That is no where near the same. Chaos murders for fun, with no real agenda, the Emperor fights, but does not murder, to Unify and Protect humanity.

 

Believe it or not, force is the best way to protect people when the people you want to protect them from use force.

 

So, it is kill or be killed. You can kill to survive, and ultimately the galaxy will be better, or you can kill for fun. Which one would you rather follow?

That is what Imperium tells. Chaos tells similar story: Humanity cannot survive without it and has to embrace it, while Emp is bad guy who decieved chaos gods and created primarchs using chaos.

 

IMHO they are both just as bad, but because there is Imperial propaganda Emp is described in better light but there are subtle hints of his "badness" (There are no gods, while there are and even he might be trying to become one, then there is: Kill all aliens! Even friendly ones? Why? Well, because!).

 

Of course they aren't both as bad as each other. Think about it logically; imagine the planet we live on right now is a Daemon World... And you'd be ok with that? Of course not. Compare it to a Hive World; I wouldn't want to live there either, but which would you rather live on?

 

Sure people go all RPG with their favourite faction, but reality tells us something quite different if we're being honest.

 

I honestly can't believe, barring RPG positioning of yourself, that anyone can read the Heresy Novels and not see the benevolence of the Emperor's intentions and (most importantly) his plans for "end game".

 

Speaking of RPG's, I have the Chaos RPG Black Crusade, where YOU PLAY AS CHAOS, and the book is filled with Chaos propaganda. Even in that book, where it makes the Imperium out to be evil, where it makes Chaos out to be good, there is still more murder, more sacrifice, more deception, and more death and evil than the Imperium.

 

Even if you read books from the Chaos point of view, chaos is evil. Have you ever read any of the 40k Word Bearer stories like First Apostle? Now compare that to an Imperial Guard novel like Gaunt's Ghosts. Huge difference. You will never, ever be able to convince me that the Emperor is just as bad as Chaos. He does what is necessary for you to survive, Chaos does what is necessary for CHAOS to thrive.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Yeah, the idea of the Imperium being no worse than Chaos is absurd.

 

The Imperium was/is not an altruistic state, it was violently expansionist and extremely xenophobic. This is all true. Nobody has ever accused the Imperium of being the "good guys".

 

But Chaos is evil. Utterly and irredeemably. I don't know how you can possibly read it any other way. Heck, it isn't like 40K is subtle about things. The end result of Chaos worship is always mass murder, mutation, damnation, etc. The Imperium may do distasteful stuff in the name of its own abenda, and in the 40K era do distasteful things in the name of pragmatism to remain in existence, but Chaos is always out destroy thing, just to destroy them.

 

40K is not, and never has been about Good vs Evil. It has always been about Man vs aliens vs Evil. The Imperium is a deep shade of gray because that's how human beings are. But Chaos has always been black.

[RapatoR]

That is no where near the same. Chaos murders for fun, with no real agenda, the Emperor fights, but does not murder, to Unify and Protect humanity.

 

Believe it or not, force is the best way to protect people when the people you want to protect them from use force.

 

So, it is kill or be killed. You can kill to survive, and ultimately the galaxy will be better, or you can kill for fun. Which one would you rather follow?

That is what Imperium tells. Chaos tells similar story: Humanity cannot survive without it and has to embrace it, while Emp is bad guy who decieved chaos gods and created primarchs using chaos.

 

IMHO they are both just as bad, but because there is Imperial propaganda Emp is described in better light but there are subtle hints of his "badness" (There are no gods, while there are and even he might be trying to become one, then there is: Kill all aliens! Even friendly ones? Why? Well, because!).

 

Of course they aren't both as bad as each other. Think about it logically; imagine the planet we live on right now is a Daemon World... And you'd be ok with that? Of course not. Compare it to a Hive World; I wouldn't want to live there either, but which would you rather live on?

 

Sure people go all RPG with their favourite faction, but reality tells us something quite different if we're being honest.

 

I honestly can't believe, barring RPG positioning of yourself, that anyone can read the Heresy Novels and not see the benevolence of the Emperor's intentions and (most importantly) his plans for "end game".

 

Speaking of RPG's, I have the Chaos RPG Black Crusade, where YOU PLAY AS CHAOS, and the book is filled with Chaos propaganda. Even in that book, where it makes the Imperium out to be evil, where it makes Chaos out to be good, there is still more murder, more sacrifice, more deception, and more death and evil than the Imperium.

 

Even if you read books from the Chaos point of view, chaos is evil. Have you ever read any of the 40k Word Bearer stories like First Apostle? Now compare that to an Imperial Guard novel like Gaunt's Ghosts. Huge difference. You will never, ever be able to convince me that the Emperor is just as bad as Chaos. He does what is necessary for you to survive, Chaos does what is necessary for CHAOS to thrive.

 

Ok, I was playing a devil's advocate on this and you got me, but some of you (kinda) got across my point: both are doing roughly the same thing: surviving and trying to aggressively expand and argument with hive versus daemon world is valid, but I want to point out that we are looking at whole deal though lens of imperials: surely hive world is better for us as "uncorrupted" humans, but daemons or cultists or CSM might find daemon world more comfortable than hive.

 

I know, I am kinda stretching it. :P

[Aqui]

Scratch a part of what I said earlier; the single event which had the most gravitas on Horus turning to Chaos was the death of Sejanus. Had he not died at that point in time Horus would have been much more roboust in his resistance to manipulation.

 

It's so understated, but it was so crucial. Sejanus was Horus' favoured son, the nay-sayer but favourite. With his loss he lost the greatest weight that kept him on the ground. He was also suffering grief more than he let on, and easier meat for the poison from Lorgar and his minions.

 

This, plus Horus was hurt by the Emperor taking leave to return to Terra (for his experiment on making Warp travel a moot point) - Horus felt betrayed by the perceived lack of Trust that the Emperor had in him, by not sharing what he was doing.

 

Also the dealings with the Interex - Even if Horus hadn't been injured by the Anatheme (sp?), Horus (to my mind) had regretted giving them the time of day rather than blasting them out of the Cosmos. It seems like a decision he was always trying to make up for afterwards.

[Badhaggis]

That is no where near the same. Chaos murders for fun, with no real agenda, the Emperor fights, but does not murder, to Unify and Protect humanity.

 

Believe it or not, force is the best way to protect people when the people you want to protect them from use force.

 

So, it is kill or be killed. You can kill to survive, and ultimately the galaxy will be better, or you can kill for fun. Which one would you rather follow?

That is what Imperium tells. Chaos tells similar story: Humanity cannot survive without it and has to embrace it, while Emp is bad guy who decieved chaos gods and created primarchs using chaos.

 

IMHO they are both just as bad, but because there is Imperial propaganda Emp is described in better light but there are subtle hints of his "badness" (There are no gods, while there are and even he might be trying to become one, then there is: Kill all aliens! Even friendly ones? Why? Well, because!).

 

Of course they aren't both as bad as each other. Think about it logically; imagine the planet we live on right now is a Daemon World... And you'd be ok with that? Of course not. Compare it to a Hive World; I wouldn't want to live there either, but which would you rather live on?

 

Sure people go all RPG with their favourite faction, but reality tells us something quite different if we're being honest.

 

I honestly can't believe, barring RPG positioning of yourself, that anyone can read the Heresy Novels and not see the benevolence of the Emperor's intentions and (most importantly) his plans for "end game".

 

Speaking of RPG's, I have the Chaos RPG Black Crusade, where YOU PLAY AS CHAOS, and the book is filled with Chaos propaganda. Even in that book, where it makes the Imperium out to be evil, where it makes Chaos out to be good, there is still more murder, more sacrifice, more deception, and more death and evil than the Imperium.

 

Even if you read books from the Chaos point of view, chaos is evil. Have you ever read any of the 40k Word Bearer stories like First Apostle? Now compare that to an Imperial Guard novel like Gaunt's Ghosts. Huge difference. You will never, ever be able to convince me that the Emperor is just as bad as Chaos. He does what is necessary for you to survive, Chaos does what is necessary for CHAOS to thrive.

 

Ok, I was playing a devil's advocate on this and you got me, but some of you (kinda) got across my point: both are doing roughly the same thing: surviving and trying to aggressively expand and argument with hive versus daemon world is valid, but I want to point out that we are looking at whole deal though lens of imperials: surely hive world is better for us as "uncorrupted" humans, but daemons or cultists or CSM might find daemon world more comfortable than hive.

 

I know, I am kinda stretching it. ;)

 

Medrengard sounds like a nice holiday location, but seriously being a citizen in an imperial hive city isn't much more appealing than living on a world devoted to Slaanesh :devil: