A year of Grey Knights

[number6]

First, a story. The story that really crystallized what I've been thinking for quite a few months now.

 

Last night was the very first time I allowed myself to play against the Chaos Daemons with the new GK codex. One of the employees at my FLGS -- who gets in between one and four 40K games every day he works there (and he's been working there since before 5th edition hit the streets) -- has been a fan and avid player of the Daemons ever since the codex came out. He's a great player and definitely knows they're underpowered these days, but he's good enough to give contentious games even with an underwhelming army. He still wins with the Daemons, even, though not nearly as often as he did back when the army was new and 5e was newish, too.

 

Anyway, I came in with my current friendly GK list looking for a game and he challenged me with his Daemons. (I had beaten his Vulkan list just last week, which nearly prompted me to post these thoughts then.) I demurred, saying that I'd rather he select an army could give the GKs a fair fight. He laughed, and insisted that while it was obvious that the GKs >> Daemons, he thought the GKs would still feel challenged. It wouldn't be an auto-win.

 

Long story short: I was right, he was wrong.

 

Just for completeness' sake, here are the lists. (2000 pts each)

 

My GKs

HQ

Mordrak + 5 Ghosts, all w/halberds

OM Inquisitor: TDA, psycannon, hammer

 

Elite

5 Paladins: halberd, halberd/psycannon, halberd/incinerator, hammer, stave

 

Troop

5 Strikers: psycannon, justicar w/hammer; razorback w/psybolts

5 Strikers: psycannon, justicar w/hammer; razorback w/psybolts

 

Fast Attack

Stormraven: MM, TLLC

5 Interceptors: psycannon, justicar w/hammer

 

Heavy

Dreadnought, 2x TLAC, psybolts

Dreadnought, 2x TLAC, psybolts

Dreadknight, heavy incinerator, teleporter

 

 

His Daemons

HQ

Skulltaker

Herald of Tzeentch on chariot

 

Elite

Bloodcrushers

Fiends

Fiends

 

Troop

Plaguebearers

Pink Horrors w/Changeling

Daemonettes

 

Fast

Screamers

Screamers

 

Heavy

Great Unclean One

Soulgrinder

Soulgrinder

 

 

The game was even set up to be as much in his favor as possible. I had to go first. It was Dawn of War. And it was Capture and Control.

 

If ever there was an opportunity for the Daemons to at least draw a game against the GKs, this was it.

 

Didn't matter. After the game ended on turn 6, all he had managed to kill were Mordrak and the attached Inquisitor, the dreadknight, the interceptors, and one of my razorbacks. Meanwhile, all he had left was the GUO with one wound, a single bloodcrusher with 1 wound, 4 horrors including the changeling, and the plaguebearers. I claimed both objectives for a clear 2-0 victory.

 

I left feeling very disappointed. A couple of people were watching the game, and when it was over my opponent was talking it over with them while I was picking my stuff up and he said, "Well, I gave it my all, but he (me) never even had to sweat." Which, sadly, was very true. There was just no challenge at all to the game.

 

And combined with the last several months of playing ... this last game really hit home the problem I'm having with my favorite army.

 

I can only get in a competitive game with my GKs if I'm playing against Space Marines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, or Imperial Guard. Sometimes, Dark Eldar and Necrons can make the game close, too ... but not reliably. It really requires a good player and a good list to make for a challenging game.

 

GW has updated more Imperial armies than anything else over the course of 5e, and they've got a mixed to poor record with the Xenos. Tyranids are outright awful, and DE and 'crons have only a limited number of tricks and builds that can give the Imperials a good fight.

 

Honestly, as much as I love the GKs, I get very little pleasure out of playing tight games against other Space Marines and only other Space Marines. Space Marine v Space Marine games leave me cold. I'd like to be facing down actual enemies of the Imperium, not coming up with "you're traitors!" or "training exercise" excuses for virtually every single game I play with my GKs.

 

But because the Marines are far and away the best armies in the game today -- and throughout the entirety of the last 4+ years of 40K -- not only is this the most common matchup (yawn), but it's causing many non-Imperial players to simply shelve their Xenos armies.

 

Since January, I've done nothing but play GKs, leaving my Tau and Tyranids entirely on the shelf. But honestly, I think I'm going to shelve my GKs and play many more games with my 'nids and Tau, as I did through much of last year as I built up and painted my GKs. At this point, after a year of playing the GKs -- and 5+ months of playing nothing but GKs ... I just need more of a challenge.

 

Sadly, I don't expect 6e to fix any of this, either. What really needs to happen is that GW needs to get off its ass and build quality non-Imperial armies. They ignored the non-Imperials for the first 2 years of 5e, and in the last 2 years of 5e, we got more Imperials, one botched Xenos army, and two merely OK Xenos armies.

 

No wonder people think GKs are overpowered. We need GW to make us some good competition that isn't also covered in power armour. It'd be a lot more fun that way, that's for sure. Right now, I'm not having nearly as much fun with the GKs as I did when they were the Daemonhunters. :)

[Gentlemanloser]

A good post.

 

I don't think it's the Xenos Codexes that are subpar, Deldar are a good codex. And I enjoy the Cron dex.

 

It's just the game is designed around 35 points boxes carrying 3+ T4 5 man squads of menz that can still take Melta guns. That's the heart of the problem.

 

If your army can't bring 35 points boxes carrying the above stats, well, you might just as well go home.

 

And 40k doesn't have to be like that.

 

Don't use Transports and dual WWB Inubi/Wych Deldar lists are hellish to face. Same with Daemons. Don't use WQ (lol what a game changer that single power is...) or transports and Dameons will eat you alive.

 

But sadly, the 35 point boxes are there. And you'd be silly *not* to use them. And Xenos need a way to take 5 man squads with a special wepaon or two, that don't die when you look at them strangely.

 

Change the basic rules favouring Rhinos and MSU marines, and you'd make the game a much better place.

 

Edit: I've not played a game in ages.

 

My mates are defeated. No matter what I do, what I field, none of them want to face me any more. They get no enjoyment from playing against the grey knights, and they have simply stopped playing.

 

The hope is that 6th, and new, up to date dexes, will hopefully change this. But I'm not really hopeful.

[Brother Dylan]

Yeah I know how you feel, I've recently gone back and started work on my Black Templars army once again for much of the same reasons. My main opponent played chaos and daemons exclusively and sense the codex has dropped he has won one game against the book, he is still a good sport about it but we face off against each other much less these days and I feel the Grey Knights are probably responsible.

[Toasterfree]

i agree that the survivability of transports is by far above what it should be. i think that 5e is weighed WAY more to vehicles than it should be. and the imperials and chaos (of all types) having a plethora of vehiles that have way better guns than xenos off the 8-ball. i toss chaos in there because they have access to basically all the same vehicles as marines do, minus the razor.

 

i can remember games in 3rd and what little of 4th that i played where if you had 2 to 3 tanks on the table you didnt have much else. and that WAS including transports. I think the one army that i had the most trucks (transports) in was my wolves, and thats cause i took 3~4 troops choices cause my heavy weapons force multiplied.

 

while i like the reduced cost of trucks it makes mech more capable to do. what i dont like about it, is that THEY NEVER DIE. sure its easy to penetrate them, but they are to survivable. i like the seperated out damage charts from 3 and 4. there was a lot more that could happen to vehicles on that (and back then they were expensive to so you had to protect them).

 

i disagree however that xenos are hindered in this edition as for the tournies that i have run, demons have won 2, chaos has won 2 and wolves have won 2. i have had xenos in the top half more often than you would think and even had a guard army in there (not meched up) running for top spot a time or three.

[Vesper]

Yeah I know how you feel, I've recently gone back and started work on my Black Templars army once again for much of the same reasons. My main opponent played chaos and daemons exclusively and sense the codex has dropped he has won one game against the book, he is still a good sport about it but we face off against each other much less these days and I feel the Grey Knights are probably responsible.

 

I know many people who left because of GK. And that's a pretty common subject. I guess codex creep just broke the friendly gaming just like it did with the tournament scene : by removing all the fun from the game. Now, there's two kind of armies, those that you have to play, and the ones that play themselves. That's not the fault of rhinos or something. That's the fault of codices IG, SW and, of course, GK.

Pretty sad, but you can't have a fair game against those codices if you don't play them. That is why they are banned in my gaming group. As simple as that.

[Marid]

A sad state of affairs to be sure. I haven't played in ages either. Still painting and modeling, but I dread going to the LGS when 6th arrives with my GK army. One could handicap a GK army by taking the 'bad' choices and leaving the TLAC dreads and the like at home. It's not like we can take our WH armies to play with anymore. Here's to a crummy one-build SOB WD codex. Enjoy. :)

[Inquisitor Fox]

My plan is to have to fluff'd Inquisitors and Retinues (of henchpeople like an actual warband, not a minmaxed unit) in Chimeras, and everything else is either teleported in or arriving by Storm Raven. The theory is it's a group of Inquisitors discovering badness and having to call in their aid. Is it handicapping myself? Most likely.. how many people take the TLAC dread on a Storm Raven transport deliberately losing turns of firing for position? No Paladins or Purifiers? No major Characters? Crazy talk you'd say. Probably right, but I play for modeling fun, enjoyment, tactical challenge and fluff.

 

Honestly... I loved my Witch Hunters army. Not a pure Sisters army, but my mixed Inquisition/SoB/perhaps a GK unit army. Sadly those days are gone, but I can still have fluff and fun.

 

This past year for me has seen me have essentially none games in it. There's been enough legitimate Real Life family issues that I'm still putzing with models and working on converting my army over to the new Codex and going from two or three legal armies to none legal armies and trying to make one that works. I can field a legal GK army now, but there's still hordes of conversion I want to do and units to buy. The bigger problem is, when armies I've been sticking with for a decade are changed on me and the perception seems to be growing we want to be non-challenged or have an auto-win... ugh.

 

I would rather all the armies end up as effective enough in the right circumstances as Grey Knights are. I would rather Xenos armies get some serious love and attention. I dislike that the army many of us chose for fluff and love of their character is being made out to be the poster child crutch of easy times. However, I am choosing to focus on the aspects of the hobby I love and trying to not worry about it. Rules come and go, the models and character stay. I imagine there will be some changes coming to shake things up, simply by the very different direction and level of things over the last year or two. Dark Eldar, Necrons... both of which seem to be very nifty portents towards what I hope happens to Chaos, Eldar, Tau, Orks, Tyrannids. I'd rather everyone gets some really powerful toys. Enough shiney that you have to only pick one or two to fit into an army list.

 

I hate pure mechanization. Hate it. I don't like vehicles as a general rule. I'm really curious as to how things will look in a few weeks, and am resolved to not worry too much. I'll just build and paint my models, play games as I can, and trust that the rest will take care of itself.

 

Then again, I collect and paint and play Sisters too, so perhaps I've more than your average load of Faith :)

[Gentlemanloser]

By all accounts, in a few weeks we'll all be moving back to the old GK staple of Raiders, and having them carry GKT. ;)

 

Now, there's two kind of armies, those that you have to play, and the ones that play themselves.

 

That's a very real problem as well. One that's been mentioned a few times.

 

The Deldar codex *is* good. But you need to understand the nuances of the Dex, and build a list that synergises well.

 

One of the main gripes I've seen IRL by players about the GK Dex (bar power weaons for all...) is that unlike the Deldar dex, you can pik it up, know nohing about how the army works, throw together any mix of units, and still have a functionally good army. Obviosuly no where near the potential of a well built list, but better by far than if you did the same with say the Deldar. Or Necrons.

 

The GKs really play themselves, while the Xenos require a lot more input.

 

That's not the fault of rhinos or something

 

Well it is.

 

It's a fault of the sheer potency of 35 point AV11, closed transports, coupled with MSU minimal squads that can still take at least one, if not more, 'special' weapons a unit.

 

How many Xenos armies get minimal sized squads that can still take 'special' guns?

 

Change that underlying issue, and the abiliy for Dexes to 'play themselves' get lessened.

 

And it alliviates the differences between the armies that *can* do this, and those that can't.

 

Plus ATSKNF is really, really, good as well. :D

[benmothershaw]

I have to say I feel the same way as you number 6. Back in the old dex it was very much more of a challenge to win games. Going from, Grey Knights facing evil and triumphing against the odds to Grey Knights doing what you expect them to do takes alot away from the game.

 

My only thoughts are to keep it fluffy and fun...

 

This way Grey Knights are only as good as you make them.

I.e. don't bring pysfleman dreadnaughts. Don't use razorbacks and deepstrike to make it as realistic as possible.

[Gentlemanloser]

The only problem with that is, how far do we go?

 

Don't bring any Psycannons.

 

Don't use an Halberds.

 

Don't ativate your Force Weapons!

 

And def don't use any 'nades!

[dswanick]

The only problem with that is, how far do we go?

 

Don't bring any Psycannons.

 

Don't use an Halberds.

 

Don't ativate your Force Weapons!

 

And def don't use any 'nades!

Sounds about right. My only addition would be don't put Psybolt Ammo on a Dreadnought.

[Vesper]

Well, that's pretty easy. Just use the daemon hunter codex. Still ok and very fluffy.

[Gentlemanloser]

That old dex was turgid rubbish.

 

I plyed it for years, and it was no fun. Outclassed by everything, even the Eldar dex. /sigh

 

The only upside is I know how my opponents now feel when facing me. I used to be on the other side for a very long time...

[DinoDoc]

I played it for years, and it was no fun. Outclassed by everything, even the Eldar dex. /sigh

You got outclassed by the Eldar with a dex that allowed you to ally with the Imperial Guard?

[Gentlemanloser]

If I wanted IG allies, I'd have played an IG Codex list.

 

And at most, Allied in an Inq for the Hood.

 

Seeing as I have no desire to play an IG army, I didn't ally in any IG units to my GK army. :)

 

Edit:

 

And look back at the old DH GK. not *really* that much more expensive than now (apart from the stupid Justicar...). So why the massive difference in power?

 

The DH GK didn't have access to 35 points transports.

 

Basically.

 

The new GK are of course better, all PW, new Psycannon stats, etc.

 

But the lack of Transports for your relatively high costing PA dude, was just a killer.

 

No mobility, and no protetion from stuff like Long Fang Missile spam, or Dark Reapers.

[Vesper]

The DH codex still has some very decent builds against xenos, even if it is always a challenge to compete with MEQ.

The transport thing is just a part of the problem. See, Draigowing for exemple, it breaks the game at another scale. If you play a killpoint game or a game with multiple objectives, you can't really lose, because the army is made to have an autowin. There is absolutly no point in playing a killpoint game against a draigowing.

Plus, C:CSM can spam PM with rhinos. But it's not viable. It don't breaks the game, C:SM don't breaks the game.. GKSWIG do.

[Gentlemanloser]

See, Draigowing for exemple, it breaks the game at another scale. If you play a killpoint game or a game with multiple objectives, you can't really lose, because the army is made to have an autowin.

 

Easily beaten.

 

You tankshock the two Pallies Squads, then escort them off the board.

 

That's if you don't have enough S8/AP2 wepaons to just kill the pallies...

[Vesper]

That's not how it works in the real world. Plus, most armies in the game don't have enough firepower to kill paladins.

[Gentlemanloser]

You can easily run 'nilla SM with either enough Rhinos or enough Meltas to kill Draigowing.

 

SW can overpower them in much the same way, especially considering LF ML spam.

 

IG can do the same. Mass Tanks and Melta Vets, let alone HW Teams. (Edit oh and PBS for the lol Ld reduciton. Then TS)

 

Deldar can do it, I'm pretty sure that with dual Court Necrons can do it was well.

 

Eldar can get a good crack at it using MSU and Shrui-cat Waves.

 

'nids are SOL, and Orks are just lol. And let's not mention Daemons...

 

The other marines, are well, other marines. (And Bangles have the Ld effecting Power as well)

 

Tau can get enough high S/high AP shooting to kill Pallies, or even torrent them down.

 

What's left?

[number6]

My only thoughts are to keep it fluffy and fun...

 

This way Grey Knights are only as good as you make them.

I.e. don't bring pysfleman dreadnaughts. Don't use razorbacks and deepstrike to make it as realistic as possible.

 

Part of me agrees with you. But I also agree with Gloser's assessment....

 

The only problem with that is, how far do we go?

 

Don't bring any Psycannons.

 

Don't use an Halberds.

 

Don't ativate your Force Weapons!

 

And def don't use any 'nades!

 

I'll be honest. Part of the reason I was truly excited by the new 'dex was that it was going to give me a chance to play an army that played completely differently from my old foot DH, and yet still be Grey Knights! I mean, if the only way I can play competitive games against non-Imperials is to either go back to the DH codex or play a new GK 'dex army composed almost entirely the same way as the old limited DH codex ... what's the point?

 

I can't use razorbacks?

I can't use Stormravens?

I can't use dakka dreads (like every other Marine 'dex)?

I can't use halberds (when virtually all my models -- even the old metal GKTs, have them built in already)?

I can't use psycannons (when I took as many of them as I could in my old DH army because they were absolutely required)?

 

Seriously, what's the point?

 

Look at the list I've been playing for the past month up top. It's not optimized by any stretch of the imagination. I'm taking a sub-par character, stuffing even more points into his unit, taking paladins when normal GKTs would work very nearly as well in the same slot, taking only 2 minimal Troops (only two psybacks), I've spent a ton of points on the dreadknight (who dies quickly and easily every game it hits the field), and only the two psyflemen, who aren't venerable, and thus much more vulnerable to being shot dead. (Many GK players take 3 or more psyflemen in my area.)

 

I dunno. I don't know how much "friendlier" I can make this list. But unless I'm playing against the big Imperial 'dexes -- that game I mentioned against Vulkan was NOT an easy game, and I only just barely won it -- the games I play with it aren't competitive.

 

Stuck in a quandry with this army, I am. :tu:

[DinoDoc]

Number: You played against arguably one of the worst codices GW put out which has the added handicap of being shackled by a horrible deployment method and you are depressed the game was easy?

[Vesper]

Number: You played against arguably one of the worst codices GW put out which has the added handicap of being shackled by a horrible deployment method and you are depressed the game was easy?

 

To be honest, daemons is an ok codex. There's far worst on the shelves at this moment.

[Gentlemanloser]

Agreed. I've seen Dameons steamroller every Imperial Army bar the GK.

 

'Letter spam with good DS first turn, followed by Flamers coming in and roasting entires Squads that aren't inside a Transport.

 

With DPN's soaking massive amounts, and popping transports with thier MC CC attacks.

 

Skulltaker IDing *everyone*.

 

Daemons can be an utter frustration for Marines to face.

 

Well, unless you're MSU 5 man Squsds inside Razorbacks, of course...

[the jeske]

chaos (of all types) having a plethora of vehiles that have way better guns than xenos off the 8-ball.

I am sorry , which one would that be ?

 

 

Well, unless you're MSU 5 man Squsds inside Razorbacks, of course...

so another words demons own up bad space marine armies . If they get the proper wave , because if they get the wrong one flamer dies without shoting and then even a bad sm army is a problems for them .

 

 

What's left?

so they beat draigo wing which is the weakest [but cheap and easy to play] GK build . awesome . now try to do the same with a proper build cortez list . suddenly unless someone is very lucky with flicker fields or plays a necron pulse build gets a NPE playing GK.

[Toasterfree]

chaos (of all types) having a plethora of vehiles that have way better guns than xenos off the 8-ball.

I am sorry , which one would that be ?

 

 

Well, unless you're MSU 5 man Squsds inside Razorbacks, of course...

so another words demons own up bad space marine armies . If they get the proper wave , because if they get the wrong one flamer dies without shoting and then even a bad sm army is a problems for them .

 

 

What's left?

so they beat draigo wing which is the weakest [but cheap and easy to play] GK build . awesome . now try to do the same with a proper build cortez list . suddenly unless someone is very lucky with flicker fields or plays a necron pulse build gets a NPE playing GK.

you just made my ignore list. i am tired of your abject negativity on EVERY thread that you post in, SAY SOMETHING POSITIVE FOR ONCE!