pre-heresy deathguard structure

[darknation]

alrighty...

 

I'm starting up a pre-heresy / heresy era deathguard army. I'm in the process of working up some decals using macromedia freehand etc, but I wanna make sure I don't fluff up the fluff, so any further info would be appreciated.

 

Things I know; seven great companies, each of which had a captain / commander. The deathguard had less companies than their brother legions. Ultra-marines had... what, about 200 'chapter' sized companies? which means they had two hundred captains. Even if the deathguard contained 70'000 marines (probably about the size of an average legion) that would mean 10'000 marines in a company, which would be a little unwieldy.

 

The command structure of the deathguard must have had more ranks beneath that of captain and the great-companies must have been further sub-divided? Anyone know more? I forget if if grulgor is referred to as captain grulgor or commander grulgor, or are the two titles interchangeable?

 

I've also just finished reading The Primarchs novel, and it is inferred that the deathguard have actually started fracturing into individual warbands *before* the march to terra and the gribblyness that followed. Typhus is already apparently already doing his own thing with neither the knowledge of or support from Mortarion and the rest of the legion.

 

Uh what else... the old dusk raiders colour scheme, with one arm painted red to symbolize 'the bloody right arm of the emperor'. I recall a Rogue Trader era article regarding apothecaries in which the red arm thing was also common amongst legionaries, so I'm debating carrying that tradition onto my deathguard. Would be a nice throwback to some old fluff.

 

The other thing I was wondering about was the seemingly close relationship between the legio mortis and the deathguard? is that detailed anyplace other than a flying mention in some long forgotten codex?

 

Heresy era techmarines; I can't recall a single mention of them in the books, so are techmarines a post-heresy institution?

 

Psykers; no librarium for the deathguard apparently, Mort had a thing against psykers. Probably daddy issues there. Then again, Typhon seems to have gotten away with it... are the statistics for human beings developing psychic powers 1% or 0.1%? Either way, in a legion of 70'000, you've still got a core of humans who are bound to be psychically active.

 

I'll post more later as it comes to me. Thanks in advance.

[Legatus]

Things I know; seven great companies, each of which had a captain / commander. The deathguard had less companies than their brother legions. Ultra-marines had... what, about 200 'chapter' sized companies? which means they had two hundred captains. Even if the deathguard contained 70'000 marines (probably about the size of an average legion) that would mean 10'000 marines in a company, which would be a little unwieldy.

The "seven companies" bit originates from the Deathguard Index Astartes article, if I am not mistaken. That article was still written with regards to the average Legion strength of 10,000 men, which was why the Space Wolves were said to have 13 Great Companies, Salamanders having 7, Iron Warriors having about 11, etc. With the changed numbers in the Horus Heresy series, such a low number of Great Companies would of course now mean that those companies would have been massively huge. Either that or you ignore the "seven companies" bit and increase that number to 70. Neither way is entirely satisfactory, but that's what you get when GW arbitrarily increses Legion sizes by ten times.

 

 

Uh what else... the old dusk raiders colour scheme, with one arm painted red to symbolize 'the bloody right arm of the emperor'. I recall a Rogue Trader era article regarding apothecaries in which the red arm thing was also common amongst legionaries, so I'm debating carrying that tradition onto my deathguard. Would be a nice throwback to some old fluff.

I am not that firm with Rogue Trader era customs, but in the article about 'Medics' on the 1989 White Dwarf Compendium on page 29 it only describes white armour parts for Medics. However, in the 'Space Marine Tactical Squad Colour Schemes' in the 1991 White Dwarf Compilation on page 29 it describes the custom of sometimes painting a Marine's right arm in his company colour, and page 31 has an example with a 3rd Company Ultramarine with a red arm. However, with 2nd Edition, that custom was subtly dropped, and it has not been suggested as a possible company colour scheme in future guides about Chapter colours, IIRC.

[Arkangilos]

Things I know; seven great companies, each of which had a captain / commander. The deathguard had less companies than their brother legions. Ultra-marines had... what, about 200 'chapter' sized companies? which means they had two hundred captains. Even if the deathguard contained 70'000 marines (probably about the size of an average legion) that would mean 10'000 marines in a company, which would be a little unwieldy.

The "seven companies" bit originates from the Deathguard Index Astartes article, if I am not mistaken. That article was still written with regards to the average Legion strength of 10,000 men, which was why the Space Wolves were said to have 13 Great Companies, Salamanders having 7, Iron Warriors having about 11, etc. With the changed numbers in the Horus Heresy series, such a low number of Great Companies would of course now mean that those companies would have been massively huge. Either that or you ignore the "seven companies" bit and increase that number to 70. Neither way is entirely satisfactory, but that's what you get when GW arbitrarily increses Legion sizes by ten times.

 

 

Or each Great Company has smaller formations in it that delegate it. So a great company is, in a sense, a chapter.

[lokkorex]

the red arm part has been part of some old fluff for salamander apothecaries as far as i know.

 

it begun after a very bloody and hardfought battle, and post-battle the apothecary refused to wash his lost brothers blood of his armour.

 

in honour of that the rest of the salamanders apotecharies painted their left arm red too.

 

note that this practice hasn't been mentioned for a long time and that it started post-heresy.

[darknation]

Ah, that brings back memories. It was indeed the salamanders sir, your memory is better than mine. And if it's post heresy then i'd best nix it. Oh well.

[malika666]

What if the Death Guard companies could be compared to oversized (pre Heresy) Chapters, numbering around 10k each. These could be divided into smaller companies (under a different name I guess) that could vary in size...

[Arkangilos]

What if the Death Guard companies could be compared to oversized (pre Heresy) Chapters, numbering around 10k each. These could be divided into smaller companies (under a different name I guess) that could vary in size...

 

... Which is what I said :)

 

Two votes for this.

[CyderPirate]

There is a reference to pre-heresy techmarines. In one of the books - I think its Deliverance Lost - a techy takes apart some salvaged boltguns and ammo taken from the traitors after the dropsite massacre.

[Inquisitor Malaclypse]

There is a reference to pre-heresy techmarines. In one of the books - I think its Deliverance Lost - a techy takes apart some salvaged boltguns and ammo taken from the traitors after the dropsite massacre

 

not to mention IIRC one of the characters in Mechanicum recalls at one point some of the best Techmarines he's taught from several legions. there is a picture of an Ultramarine Techmarine in HH: Collected Visions as well.

 

the exact size of the DG great companies is not known. it seems that various Legions are fractured based on where they are at and their current mission, so a detachment of DG may be off doing it's thing away from the Legion under orders of Mortarion or Horus, or whatever. we can only assume the bulk of the Legion is still with Horus or is soon to be become the Plague Marines.

 

frustrating when trying to figure numbers, but allows for plot twists of loyal Astartes that originate from traitor Legions, and potentially, vice versa.

 

you're right on the number of the seven companies of the Death Guard, and i would opt for the 70K marines. i would say that Typhon and Garro were Captains of approximately 10K Astartes each, leading me to think that the command structure (though not the rank and titles) were similar to the Emperor's Children: Lord Commanders were higher ranking than Captains, so a DG Captain would be equivalent to an EC Lord Commander. this is merely a hunch.

 

based on the fact that the number of the DG are not pointed out to us (like when the authors mention the Ultramarines were a large Legion or the that Salamanders were a smaller Legion) we have to assume it was 'regular sized' or in other words their size is not worth mentioning. problem is, we don't know what'regular size' is for a Legion.

 

lastly:

 

Ultra-marines had... what, about 200 'chapter' sized companies? which means they had two hundred captains.

 

the only real way that i would account for Astartes Legion/Chapter numbers would be going by the name of the progenitor chapter and it's descendant chapters: the UM LEGION was divided into 23 different CHAPTERS post Heresy, indicating up to 23K Marines survived the Heresy. taking that number that leads to an approximate figure of 230 UM Captains in the Legion.

 

that's the best way i can figure to come up with numbers for Legions to Chapters, though it doesn't work at all for the traitor Legions; they all seem to follow the pattern of breaking up into various sized groups that follow their own agendas or owe their loyalty to one charismatic leader.