Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Hi all This contains some spoilers from The Lion, however, is not meant to revolve into a debate about the Lion's action but purely around the size of the Legion. Now, The Lion orders they will go to the world Perditus that 6 Orders are to come with them, the Fourth, Sixth, Ninth, Sixteenth, Seventeenth and Thirtieth Orders. Trajan, the Captain of the Ninth, mentions that this numbers 30,000 warriors. Now, if we divide 30,000 between 6, we come up with 5000 per Order. But there are at least 30 Orders meaning that it is likely that the Legion numbers at least 150,000 Astartes. And this is if we accept their are only 30 Orders and not, in fact, 40 or 50. The implications of this suggests that the Dark Angels may, indeed, turn out to be one of the biggest Legions and therefore, when Jonson states that Horus did not want to fight the DA its not an idle boast, but actual fact. Horus did not wish to face 150,000+ warriors as well as Jonson. Thoughts on the implications of this? and as to whether or not the Legion may have, in fact, been closer to 200,000. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254335-da-legion-size/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Firstly, you're assuming that all the Orders are the same size, which we don't know for sure. Secondly, we already know that the Ultramarines are the largest Legion at 150,000 Astartes, with the Word Bearers in second at 100,000. That's a direct statement from the Emperor. Sure, the Dark Angels could have grown in size since the time that statement was made, but the Dark Angels have never been known for their size pre-Heresy. I'd say it's either just an oversight by the author, or the more likely explanation that the Orders are simply of different sizes. I mean, I can see them being a large Legion, but they're only the third largest at best. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254335-da-legion-size/#findComment-3088929 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 .. Secondly, we already know that the Ultramarines are the largest Legion at 250,000 Astartes... Fixed :) ref: Know no fear. UM= 25 Chapters, each with 10 Companies of 1,000. That allows the WB's who are probably 2nd to have closer to 200k, maybe even above that. Agreed that DA are probably 3rd largest, it isn't any real stretch to believe they have 150-200k, I'd say less (75-100k) but I'd like the bigger number for egos sake. s Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254335-da-legion-size/#findComment-3088935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Waitaminute. Companies number 1000 astartes ? Not 100 ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254335-da-legion-size/#findComment-3088938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted June 18, 2012 Author Share Posted June 18, 2012 yes, companies are 1000 and there are 10 Companies to a Chapter (In KNF) with 25 Chapters. This presumably changed by the time of the 2nd Founding to 10 companies of 100 marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254335-da-legion-size/#findComment-3088942 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Pre HH Company in KNF states 1000 Ninja'd by BSB :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254335-da-legion-size/#findComment-3088943 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted June 18, 2012 Author Share Posted June 18, 2012 Firstly, you're assuming that all the Orders are the same size, which we don't know for sure. Secondly, we already know that the Ultramarines are the largest Legion at 150,000 Astartes, with the Word Bearers in second at 100,000. That's a direct statement from the Emperor. Sure, the Dark Angels could have grown in size since the time that statement was made, but the Dark Angels have never been known for their size pre-Heresy. I'd say it's either just an oversight by the author, or the more likely explanation that the Orders are simply of different sizes. I mean, I can see them being a large Legion, but they're only the third largest at best. True on the first point, second has already been retconned by KNF :) I think there is some really old background that stated the DA had a large Legion, like 2nd/3rd, but I have nothing to back this up. As far as Order sizes go, I think we can assume that, at full strength, an Order was around 5000 Astartes. Who knows, maybe they are actually under strength and should read 10000 per Order :). I think it is a safer bet to assume that the Legion is around 150,000 Astartes at full strength, though attrition and lack of recruits will have reduced this number. I would only see them around the 3rd-2nd largest (counting casualties in the WB since TFH) but for sure, not the largest as thats UM territory. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254335-da-legion-size/#findComment-3088950 Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrayCatt Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 In the old fluff, that supported the DA being able to field a full company in TDA, they were the largest legion at the start of the heresey. The issues on Caliban resulted in the loss of over half the legion, but not thier equipment. The UM were the largest post heresey because they saw the least action during the wars. Hence the most 2nd founding chapters were created from the UM. Oddly enough, the first bit of fluff about the UM, when the original Marneus model was released, listed them as a chapter created around the time of the 30th founding ... Not a primogenitor ... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254335-da-legion-size/#findComment-3089061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 In the old fluff, that supported the DA being able to field a full company in TDA, they were the largest legion at the start of the heresey. The issues on Caliban resulted in the loss of over half the legion, but not thier equipment. The UM were the largest post heresey because they saw the least action during the wars. Hence the most 2nd founding chapters were created from the UM. The Ultramarines sources since 2nd Edition describe the Legion as having grown to be the largest one during the Great Crusade. I don't remember ever reading about the Dark Angels being one of the largest, let alone the largest of them all, and I couldn't find it by quickly browsing through the 2nd Edition Codex Angels of Death or the 3rd Edition Index Astartes Dark Angels. Would you happen to remember where you read that they were the largest Legion? Oddly enough, the first bit of fluff about the UM, when the original Marneus model was released, listed them as a chapter created around the time of the 30th founding ... Not a primogenitor ... Third founding, actually. Created in the 32nd millennium, by the Chapter's founder, Roboute Guilliman. Originally a fleet based Chapter, the Ultramarines distinguished themselves in the earliest Tyranic wars since the 34th millennnium. And in the last great Tyranic war in 745 of the 41st millennium, the Ultramarines were rewarded with ownership over the planet Macragge in the Vendors system. Current acting Chapter Master was a 66 year old Marneus Calgar, who got that position in 977.M41. One of the Chapter's chief Astropaths was a half-eldar, who had previously served a few years with the Dark Angels. Good ol' times. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254335-da-legion-size/#findComment-3089078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Rawl Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Lorgar also ramped up recruitment for his legion per Fateweaver's order during Aurelian, we do not know for sure how large the Word Bearers had grown before they reached Calth Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254335-da-legion-size/#findComment-3089230 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 yes, companies are 1000 and there are 10 Companies to a Chapter (In KNF) with 25 Chapters. This presumably changed by the time of the 2nd Founding to 10 companies of 100 marines. My bad, just forgot we were talking about pre-heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254335-da-legion-size/#findComment-3089286 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haranin Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 In Fallen Angels, the DA streamline their recruitment process and radically speed it up. For 50+ years. Not inconceivable that it wasn't common knowledge in the Imperium, and it resulted in a large increase in the Legion's numbers. Angels of Darkness implies that the Lion increased the size of the Legion at least four fold fairly quickly after contact. Enough that each Terran unit was partnered with a Caliban unit, and there were sufficient Caliban units equal forces not partnered... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254335-da-legion-size/#findComment-3089289 Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrayCatt Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 My bad on the UM ... I knew there was a 3 in there somewhere ... I will try and find references for the DA size ... IIRC it was part of the original Epic/Space Marine ... On an aside, there was a small bit of fluff back in 1st edition that stated the actions of The DA and BA on Horus's battle barge distracted Horus, allowing the Emp to defeat him. Oh how the background has changed. -Adam Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254335-da-legion-size/#findComment-3089291 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arioch Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I have been thinking about that statement in "The Lion" as well. Gav clearly put it in there to give the fans an idea of the size of the Dark Angels Legion. Its pretty clear that the legion was well above 150.000 warriors, as 6 orders makes out more than 30.000 men and the highest number of orders that are reffered to is 30. Maybe this could be a result of the effective recruting cycles that we heard about in "Fallen Angels", where it is directly stated that their speed in producing spacemarines is unsurpassed. Of course, they still only have one world to recruit from, where the Ultramarines have several, thus they are still not able to produce marines faster than the Ultramarines, even though their method is more effective (as in effective to spit out marines, I have no idea in the what quality they are). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254335-da-legion-size/#findComment-3089352 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForTheLion Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 In the second DA Horus Heresy book its been 50 years since Luther was exiled and its stated that he refined the recruiting process to be the most advanced....it could explain the swelling of numbers....dont forget luther was training astartes for 50 years with increasing rate and sending them to the lions front lines b4 he went dark side Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254335-da-legion-size/#findComment-3089525 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Broker Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 How long before the Heresy did Luther stop sending reinforcements? It can't be that long, or the Lion would've come a knocking, but it can't have been too late, as they don't seem to have any idea about the Heresy in the HH book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254335-da-legion-size/#findComment-3089683 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lividjoker Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I would imagine even if he did send more men they wouldn't of reached the Lion straight away due to the warpstorms etc. So Luther not sending them wouldn't of seemed odd, to begin with. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254335-da-legion-size/#findComment-3089702 Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrayCatt Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I have been thinking about that statement in "The Lion" as well. Gav clearly put it in there to give the fans an idea of the size of the Dark Angels Legion. Its pretty clear that the legion was well above 150.000 warriors, as 6 orders makes out more than 30.000 men and the highest number of orders that are reffered to is 30. Maybe this could be a result of the effective recruting cycles that we heard about in "Fallen Angels", where it is directly stated that their speed in producing spacemarines is unsurpassed. Of course, they still only have one world to recruit from, where the Ultramarines have several, thus they are still not able to produce marines faster than the Ultramarines, even though their method is more effective (as in effective to spit out marines, I have no idea in the what quality they are). Actually in Fallen Angels it is implied that the 1st Legion is still recruiting from other places. There is a statement, don't have exact quote, where the citizens of Caliban are being tested to see if Caliban is suitable to be added as a recruiting world. (Emphasis added) -Adam Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254335-da-legion-size/#findComment-3089742 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arioch Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I have been thinking about that statement in "The Lion" as well. Gav clearly put it in there to give the fans an idea of the size of the Dark Angels Legion. Its pretty clear that the legion was well above 150.000 warriors, as 6 orders makes out more than 30.000 men and the highest number of orders that are reffered to is 30. Maybe this could be a result of the effective recruting cycles that we heard about in "Fallen Angels", where it is directly stated that their speed in producing spacemarines is unsurpassed. Of course, they still only have one world to recruit from, where the Ultramarines have several, thus they are still not able to produce marines faster than the Ultramarines, even though their method is more effective (as in effective to spit out marines, I have no idea in the what quality they are). Actually in Fallen Angels it is implied that the 1st Legion is still recruiting from other places. There is a statement, don't have exact quote, where the citizens of Caliban are being tested to see if Caliban is suitable to be added as a recruiting world. (Emphasis added) -Adam I guess they would have been recruiting from Terra before they reached Caliban, therefore Caliban was "added". It would be more correct to say that Caliban replaced Terra. I cant think of any DA who didnt come from either Caliban or Terra, so we should not consider another recruiting world, at least not at the moment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254335-da-legion-size/#findComment-3090023 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 "Deathwing" story ring a bell? We 'had' more than one recruiting world in older fluff. The changes are sometimes hard to follow, it's why we love the back story/retcons: keeps us honest. stobz Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254335-da-legion-size/#findComment-3090025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arioch Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 "Deathwing" story ring a bell? We 'had' more than one recruiting world in older fluff. The changes are sometimes hard to follow, it's why we love the back story/retcons: keeps us honest. stobz Huh? But that was after the heresy, with Caliban destroyed. Sure the later Dark Angels had several recrutingworlds, but before the heresy I dont think so. I have not read the story, so sorry if "Deathwing" tells about things in the heresy I am not aware of. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254335-da-legion-size/#findComment-3090052 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted June 20, 2012 Author Share Posted June 20, 2012 I do not believe it does. It seems we may have recruited from other worlds, however, I do not see why this would create a problem, to be honest. Caliban Marines would still maintain the largest presence, other than Terran. They just add another, interesting dynamic that they either will or will not explore Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254335-da-legion-size/#findComment-3090059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I also don't believe it materially changes your math based on 30-50 Orders with 5-10k in each. Just attempting to dispel a lingering belief was all. stobz Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254335-da-legion-size/#findComment-3090076 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I personally think people are misinterpreting the quoted text, I always took it to mean as another recruiting world for the Imperium (and by extension the Dark Angels specifically). Just my take though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254335-da-legion-size/#findComment-3090133 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 As stated, Deathwing takes place after the heresy and gives the origins of why the first company now sports white armor - so it has no relevance here. As of now, we have only heard of Terran and Calibanite Dark Angels. I agre with MadDoc, the reference is probably speaking in terms of recruiting words in general. After the events of KNF, wouldn't that leave the DA elevated in rank? The UMs were said I have list quite a bit, no? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254335-da-legion-size/#findComment-3091855 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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