DA Legion size

[Interrogator Stobz]

Agreed, I only mentioned DW to highlight that the DA may have had other recruiting worlds prior/during/after the HH and the lack of info on them doesn't prevent them.

I wasn't overly clear as to my intent earlier, apologies. I could very well be wrong though and, it won't be the first tiime:P

I'm only half way through KNF, it really seem the UM got pummelled and lost a big chunk of their might, that may indeed have elevated us up to 'First' among equals. Wouldn't that be great with the new edition and possible dex in the wings?

Major retcons required, but that's what GW do.....

 

s

[Legatus]

I'm only half way through KNF, it really seem the UM got pummelled and lost a big chunk of their might, that may indeed have elevated us up to 'First' among equals. Wouldn't that be great with the new edition and possible dex in the wings?

And then a big chink of the Dark Angels Legion betrays the Emperor and is sucked into the warp, to the never ending shame of the Unforgiven. So, in what way would a brief period where they had more members than the Ultramarines Legion be great?

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

we do not know how big it was. It was a garrison force, not like 50% of the Legion...

 

Could have been a bare 5000 Astartes all told. so, I do not think that the Fallen mad a huge dent in terms of numbers, it's more the shame of them turning traitor.

 

Who really knows, 6th is around the corner and everything is about to change...

[EPK]

 

I believe they had 20 chapters muster and lost nearly half there numbers. That would leave 100,000 after Calth and another 5 Chapters that were not called to the muster - 150,000+ total. I'm guessing they wasted no time recruiting after that.

 

 

You are right Stobz, I suppose it does show precedence. Not enough info really, but if there was other recruiting worlds, they either don't produce many marines (else we might of heard of them by now) or the writers haven't made them up yet. The fluff seems to elude to most Legions simply goin from one compliance to the nex during the Crusade with little effort in setting up recruitment, save for the UM and WB.

 

I'm also in the sentiment that it seems odd to station more then just a skeleton force back on Caliban (despite what older fluff may say). However, I suppose a certain amount of those loyal to the Lion who returned with him may have been lost one way or another.

[Candleshoes]

I'm only half way through KNF, it really seem the UM got pummelled and lost a big chunk of their might, that may indeed have elevated us up to 'First' among equals. Wouldn't that be great with the new edition and possible dex in the wings?

And then a big chink of the Dark Angels Legion betrays the Emperor and is sucked into the warp, to the never ending shame of the Unforgiven. So, in what way would a brief period where they had more members than the Ultramarines Legion be great?

 

In the recent Primarchs novella, we find out that almost 4 and a half years before the siege of Terra, the Lion knows that Caliban will consume itself and everyone on it. He makes the concious choice to leave it alone, to sacrifice it knowingly, in order to rush his troops to Terra. His view holds the need to ensure the emperor either survives, or failing that, lives on as a figurehead that even Guilliman cannot replace (not physically, but through the new order/establishment).

 

As mentioned already, Luther holds a small garrison force, with whatever new founded recruits have been raised from Caliban itself, hardly the "Big Chink" suggested, though if following the older fluff, it might be taken as such.

 

That being said, the Lion still would arrive on Terra, at the head of the majority of his Legion, untouched by any large loss untill that point, which cannot be said about any other Loyalist. With the ending of the novella, we know that the Lion's "long" views actually see the current 40k setting as the best case scenario, with the Emperor never being replaced. If that is the case, he obviously advocates his strength to ensuring that that future comes to pass. As one of the strongest Legions, with a living or non-missing Primarch, and with his hate for Guilliman, the Lion's mistrust and inability to see the wood for the trees would lend itself to really shaping the events to follow. Returning to the mess on Caliban now seems more likely a solemn duty to see the inevitable through to the end, not the shocked and painful betrayl it used it be.

[Veteran Sergeant]

I'm only half way through KNF, it really seem the UM got pummelled and lost a big chunk of their might, that may indeed have elevated us up to 'First' among equals. Wouldn't that be great with the new edition and possible dex in the wings?

Major retcons required, but that's what GW do.....

The thing is, the Ultramarines were the biggest Legion before the Heresy, but they remained the largest because their recruitment rates were much higher due to Guilliman's extensive infrastructure. So if the Dark Angels were momentarily larger than the Ultramarines due to the casualties at Calth, it really makes no changes to the greater fluff, since the Dark Angels still have their schism, and can't replenish their losses at the rate the Ultramarines do.

[Acebaur]

Ok, everyone needs to cool it. If you cannot post in a constructive manner that debates the topic without attacking one another the thread will be locked. If you cannot agree on the Lion's state of mind then agree to disagree and move on.

[Legatus]

One thing that needs to be noticed as far as the Dark Angels Legion size is concerned: In 'Call of the Lion' and 'Angels of Darkness', Gav had described the Dark Angels Legion as consisting of Chapters of a thousand. I think he may already have had them larger than the original 10,000 per Legion, but at least he had still kept the 1,000 per Chapter/Great Company. Now, in 'Know no Fear', and also in 'The Lion', BL has been changing the Chapter/Great Company sizes as well. Presumably because someone over there finally realized that seven or thirteen Great Companies of 1,000 Marines would make Legions such as the Space Wolves, the Salamanders or the Deathguard tiny in comparison to the recently upsized Legions. (So, just screw up the Ultramarine numbers instead, why don't ya.)

 

So, due to the retcon mess, the Dark Angels have essentially gone from

 

a Legion with 1,000 strong Chapters, approximately 10,000 in total

to

a Legion with 1,000 strong Chapters, but several dozen of them

to

a Legion with 5,000 strong "Orders", with about 30 of them

 

You could make conclusions about the Legion's likely size, as based on the latest batch of altered background. But really, what's the worth of such a conclusion? Maybe this is what BL will now stick with. Or maybe the next novel will change the Legion organization yet again. Maybe someone over at GW will realize that the Horus Heresy series has done so much more damage than the Star Wars prequels ever could. Though, on the other hand, the Horus Heresy series is well received by a large number of people. But then I guess so were the Star Wars prequels, or else there would not have been so many spin offs.

[Kurgan the Lurker]

Ok last warning. Certain individuals in this thread continue to goad one another after the mods have said knock it off. I will direct the mods to issue warnings if it continues - regardless of "who started it".

 

A few of you are dangerously close to getting permanently airlocked with where your warning level is right now so I suggest you all cool it immediately.

[Haranin]

Shrug- some numbers being all over the place is normal even in the real world.

 

Compare and contrast the figures on German tanks and troops in Patton's memoirs, and Stephan Ambrose's books with the actual troop figures from German primary documents for D-Day and the Battle of France.

 

Or the perception that the Germans had more tanks for the first Battle of France in 1940.

 

That is stuff only 70 years ago, and we have fairly complete records on the numbers... and an alive tradition of objective historians.

 

Reality isn't clean. Units can be notationally the same but be radically different in practice. Astelen's chapter, and the ones he knew of could be 1,000. The remainder could be 5,000. We know the Lion and the Caliban units didn't like him. Taking all the figures as gospel and irreconcilable is extreme.

 

It would be like taking a vet's narrative subjective account on objective things as 100%. It is what he experienced and felt.... but the actual troop numbers and gear were probably different. Heck, many allied accounts of WWII have every tank being a tiger, and every gun a 88.

 

They are not lying deliberately.

 

Such inconsistencies in the hersey make it better.

[MadDoc]

Do we know for sure that Orders aren't a separate operational unit to Chapters? With Orders possibly being a larger unit made up of Chapters?

 

I personally doubt that to be the case, but it is a question worth asking.

[Legatus]

That is of course possible. Though in 'Call of the Lion' and 'Angels of Darkness' the pre-heresy Chapters were operating independently.

[Arkangilos]

That is of course possible. Though in 'Call of the Lion' and 'Angels of Darkness' the pre-heresy Chapters were operating independently.

 

Still though, some chapters today have independently operating companies.

 

Maybe each chapter belongs and reports to an order, but can do its own thing.

[MadDoc]

Still though, some chapters today have independently operating companies.

Even Squads are able to operate relatively independently. So that still leaves it open as a possibility.

 

Maybe each chapter belongs and reports to an order, but can do its own thing.

Just like the Companies in your contemporary Chapter analogy.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I think whats necessary is a supplement book that details the organisation etc of each Legion to accompany this series. Otherwise it's just gonna be far too confusing, and it will sell. I know I would buy it, and the fact that so many people ask 'what is Legion X's organisation?' that it will be a popular book.

[Arkangilos]

I think whats necessary is a supplement book that details the organisation etc of each Legion to accompany this series. Otherwise it's just gonna be far too confusing, and it will sell. I know I would buy it, and the fact that so many people ask 'what is Legion X's organisation?' that it will be a popular book.

 

Agreed.

[Legatus]

Still though, some chapters today have independently operating companies.

 

Maybe each chapter belongs and reports to an order, but can do its own thing.

Just like the Companies in your contemporary Chapter analogy.

It is still a possibility that it is meant to go Legion --> Order --> Chapter, but comparing it to contemporary Companies is not a suitable analogy. In a contemporary Chapter, a Company is the next largest formation after the full Chapter itself. If the Dark Angels Legion Orders were then divided into Chapter, the Chpater would not be the next big formation after the entire Legion itself, it would be one further division. Sort of like as if contemporary squads were operating independently, which they generally do not do (with some rare exceptions, such as in the Ultramarines movie).

 

In the earlier Dark Angels novels, the individual Chapters were travelling around the Galaxy on their own, seeking planets to liberate. If a Chapter had that kind of autonomy, then what would be the purpose of an "order" formation?

[Arkangilos]

Still though, some chapters today have independently operating companies.

 

Maybe each chapter belongs and reports to an order, but can do its own thing.

Just like the Companies in your contemporary Chapter analogy.

It is still a possibility that it is meant to go Legion --> Order --> Chapter, but comparing it to contemporary Companies is not a suitable analogy. In a contemporary Chapter, a Company is the next largest formation after the full Chapter itself. If the Dark Angels Legion Orders were then divided into Chapter, the Chpater would not be the next big formation after the entire Legion itself, it would be one further division. Sort of like as if contemporary squads were operating independently, which they generally do not do (with some rare exceptions, such as in the Ultramarines movie).

 

In the earlier Dark Angels novels, the individual Chapters were travelling around the Galaxy on their own, seeking planets to liberate. If a Chapter had that kind of autonomy, then what would be the purpose of an "order" formation?

 

Tradition.

 

Or maybe one Order was told to be in sector one, and everywhere within that sector the chapters would go. Another Order was told sector two, and the chapters went everywhere within that sector.

 

I still go for the Tradition part.

[DarkGuard]

OK guys. Considering that the recent heated debate on here wasn't actually about the size of the Dark Angels Legion I've pruned those posts out.

 

From now on, lets not only keep it civil but stick to the current topic, which is about DA Legion size.

 

Here's a quote from Brother-Sergeant Bohemond who started the post:

 

This contains some spoilers from The Lion, however, is not meant to revolve into a debate about the Lion's action but purely around the size of the Legion.

 

So lets stay on topic and keep to the OPs wishes on discussing the size of the Legion.

[WarSpirit]

For word bearer legion, Butcher's nails states that around 40 to 50k word bearers are with the world eaters. In KNF i think it was around 100k that where sent to Calth but can't remember for sure. So that would put them at between 150k and 200k.

 

Also in KNF while it is stated that UM are at 250k, if I remember correctly i think estimated loss where at 130k, leaving the UM with still a good force of around 120k. It's quite possible that since the events of Calth UM legion size dropped and that another legion would have more troops, namely DA.

 

Even if the Word Bearers where succesful in crippling the UM, it's true that Horus would not want to meet the DA in a front war if the estimates of Brother-Sergeant are correct.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

To be honest, I am not sure what the issue is with an enlarged DA Legion, it does not mean they are the largest, that is the UM place and we know the second was, most likely, the WB Legion.

 

Possibly its a reason for the Lion's comment that Horus and the other Primarchs did not want to face his Legion, as it was a lot larger than the others present at Istvaan. The Salamandars and RG are both smaller Legions, and the IH only sent 10,000 or so Astartes. Imagine if the DA had been there instead of, say, the Sallies with their 70,000 they faced 150,000-200,000 Astartes. Plus, the Lion being much better in tactics than Vulkan. Just a thought here.

[Haranin]

orbital bombardment. More dead loyalist. Perhaps the Khornites might have still dropped, but Horus rather then backing them up probably would have just nuked the planet till it glowed.

 

So one less loyalist legion for the post heresy era, and a few less chaos beserkers for the siege...

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

ummm....Orbital bombardment with the DA fleet in space, the IH fleet and the RG fleet? with all the Legions on the ground? The Sons of Horus and Horus himself there?

 

No, I do not think so....

 

Im not talking about Istvann III but V. The one where Manus died.

[Arkangilos]

. Plus, the Lion being much better in tactics than Vulkan. Just a thought here.

 

Proof?