Death Star Squads

[rpnightsend]

Now this could technically be a discussion of all armies, but being a marine player who fights mostly MEQ's, I will constrain most of my argument to that.

Anyways, we know the trend in current codexes to have one or two units that are just cheese. Pricing aside, they're awesome, they're powerful, and they often abuse the wound allocation rules a la tons of equipment options. Paladins, Nob Bikers and Thunderwolf Cavalry jump to mind.

 

Now there's two things I wanted to bring up personally about these:

 

The first is, why do they exist?

With 6th edition close on the horizon, I'm quite scared it may buff or somehow encourage use of these big, often expensive "death star units". It happened in WHFB in 8th and made the game not fun for me, a Wood Elf Player (but thats a discussion for another forum).

Anyways, I'm not sure how to justify their existence. As fun as they can be to kit out and assemble (I run Nob Bikers with my speed freaks), it is not fun for the controlling player if they die horribly/do nothing as your opponent dedicates their whole army to killing or avoiding them. As the defender, being forced to spend all of your units shooting at one thing as it inches towards your army is usually not fun to play against either. Whats worse is when two death star units get to each other and spend the whole game just duking it out, usually with neither side managing to gain the upper hand over the other (something I've seen many times.

And I really can't figure out why GW would support them either, despite creating them in codexes. In fact, unlike in WHFB, where Death Stars are often huge units that requires tons of models to be purchased, only 10-20 paladins, nob bikers, or thunderwolf cavalry need to be purchased to run a competent 2000 point or so list. So, again, why would these be created/encouraged?

 

My Second Question is more tactical. How do you handle them, when not fielding a death star of your own?

In both of my MEQ armies (Space Marines and Dark Angels) I really don't have much in the way of units like that (I realize i could potentially kit certain units out to do that job, but I prefer not to, and none have access to multiple-wound model musical wounds). Its often frustrating for me to have to either throw my whole army at one squad, or run in fear of them the whole game while trying to out maneuver them. How do you guys handle 40k Death Star units (specific ones or in general)?

[Solid Zaku]

You answered a lot of your own questions. How do you take care of them? Avoid them. How do you fight fire? With fire. To do a 'how to' on each Death Star requires you point out each individual Death Star, as most play rather differently. Personally I love Death Stars, except in slaughterhouse missions. The place I go to NEVER has those sorts of things, going instead by objectives or other such convolutions. Whether it's Leafblower, Meltavets, Thunderwolves, Nob Bikerz, or Razorspam, each FOTM army has its own Deathstar that's as quickly made famous as it is quickly made inert. Take Draigowing. It was as if the internet was going to explode over it, and yet here we are now months later, and his little gimmick is as easily understood and dealt with as any other...barring the overall cheesiness of the GK's, but I digress.

 

Why do they exist? Easy. Named or special characters, which often make up the backbone of a Deathstar, are typically expensive models, in both points and currency. And typically there need to be a lot of them. Does GW particularly care that these units are un-fun and often overpowered in comparison to other options? They can't hear you over the flappity-flap sound of their cash sorters.

[ChaosLord Leon Enaek]

I run a Necron Overlord, Veil Cryptek and 10 Lychguard in my Necron army. My gaming mates and I have a policy of allowing semi-death star units (such as 9 Nobs and a Warboss in a Warkopta or a Grey Knight Paladin squad in a Land Raider) provided they aren't designed to exploit the rules - e.g. The lychguard unit is almost 750 points for WS4 and the Orks are expensive power weapon fodder.

When I play pick up games against someone using a true death star I always try to ignore them and leave them trying to march through terrain to get at me. Then, about halfway through the game I send a tarpit in to slow it down - 20 summoned lesser daemons, 20 warriors with a ghost ark parked behind them, my mates 30 grots in a 2-on-2 match, etc.

 

I hope that helps!

[KingDeath]

Most deathstars aren't that good. Pouring lots of points into a unit which is but a single meltahit away from becoming slow and useless tends to be a bad strategy.

[Warsmith Aznable]

A deathstar is just any really good unit that you can't normally afford two of, highlighted by people making sacrifices in other areas of their army list in order to run them in smaller games than they were probably intended for.

 

I sometimes feel forced to run them to counter armies that are harder than my own. I'm sure there are people that like deathstars as a strategy on its own merits, but I'm not one of them.

[Jacinda]

Now this could technically be a discussion of all armies, but being a marine Its often frustrating for me to have to either throw my whole army at one squad, or run in fear of them the whole game while trying to out maneuver them.

If you are MEQ fighting MEQ you should be familiar with concentrating fire. It takes 2 units against 1 to come out on the upper hand. In a 2000 point game that unit of 10 paladins can be half of your opponent's points. That means to get the 2:1 advantage, you need to commit your whole army to it's destruction. The ratio is the same as if it were a 5 man tac squad; it is just the scale that has increased.

 

As far as how to deal with them, again, the same tactic as just about any other unit; open the box and then shoot them. Take out the transport first. For this I use my Dominions which are always carrying all the meltaguns they can have. Once out of their transport, they get fired on by anyone that can shoot them. Exorcist missiles work great; missile launcher spam from SM will do the same. This will not kill the whole squad but if I am lucky, 20-25% come off at the first engagement. From then on, I need to keep the deathstar "out there" where I can shoot it. The first Dominion squad is the first speed bump and dies on the opponents turn. Dominion squad 2 goes in next. Heavy melta fire. More exorcist missile. 50% of the deathstar remains. Seraphim go next with flamers this time. More Exorcist missiles. By this time the Battle Conclave is close enough to act and the deathstar is at about 30% strength if that. You could look at it that I have lost units and have not killed any. Or, you could see that I have spent 500 points to kill 700 points. Those 3 paladins remaining will be 1 when it is their Initiative.

 

All this is assuming everything works perfectly. It doesn't. Dreads will be shooting my Exorcists until I get my melta troops in rhinos across the table to deal with them. MEQ will be hunting my troops because as the close combat numbers go, 10 marines against 10 battle sisters is already a 2:1 advantage: at S3 and T3, the sisters will take wounds twice as much as they can cause them and they go at I3. This means Saint Celestine will be harassing the MEQ and the battle conclave will probably have to deal with at least one squad before getting into combat with the deathstar remnants.

 

Open the box, shoot the deathstar, throw small sacrificial units in their way so you can keep shooting.

[DV8]

The first is, why do they exist?

With 6th edition close on the horizon, I'm quite scared it may buff or somehow encourage use of these big, often expensive "death star units". It happened in WHFB in 8th and made the game not fun for me, a Wood Elf Player (but thats a discussion for another forum).

 

It's rumored that 6th Edition will actually de-buff these Death Stars (as a lot of them rely on wound allocation) but we won't really know till we get our hands on the new rules set.

 

HOWEVER, you bring up a good point with WHFB 8th Edition, where "Death Star" units and big blocks of infantry were encouraged for things like horde formation and tons of ranks for steadfast. But these units are kept in check (and prevent an "all your eggs in one basket" situation) with all the power spells available. Things like Purple Sun, Pit of Shades, Dweller's Below, etc. all serve to keep these kinds of units in check. That combined with how easy it is to throw 6 dice at a spell to get Irresistible Force means that when you want to kill a unit, you can kill it good.

 

Which I'm sure will be the case when 6th Edition is released. Will we see Death Stars? Sure. But I'm also sure that the new rules (rumored Stratagems among them) and scenarios can be used to counter them just as effectively.

 

And I really can't figure out why GW would support them either, despite creating them in codexes. In fact, unlike in WHFB, where Death Stars are often huge units that requires tons of models to be purchased, only 10-20 paladins, nob bikers, or thunderwolf cavalry need to be purchased to run a competent 2000 point or so list. So, again, why would these be created/encouraged?

 

For the same reason Special Characters are becoming more and more prevalent in the meta of 40k. It's just the direction the game is taking. You want a real answer? Fly to the UK and talk to the game designers in person.

 

My Second Question is more tactical. How do you handle them, when not fielding a death star of your own?

In both of my MEQ armies (Space Marines and Dark Angels) I really don't have much in the way of units like that (I realize i could potentially kit certain units out to do that job, but I prefer not to, and none have access to multiple-wound model musical wounds). Its often frustrating for me to have to either throw my whole army at one squad, or run in fear of them the whole game while trying to out maneuver them. How do you guys handle 40k Death Star units (specific ones or in general)?

 

For the most part, Death Star units in 40k aren't super-mobile. They also eat up a lot of points, leaving less for support units. Use that to your advantage; play the scenarios, kill what little support units they have in Kill Points, maneuver for objectives in objective-based games.

 

I tend to just avoid Death Stars. Go ahead and spend 800-1000 points on a unit. I'll just field an actual army and play the game instead of pushing models.

 

 

DV8

[Lysere]

Some death stars are easily killed off by things like orbital strikes via Chapter Maser, or Vindicators. Anything that can hit large numbers of them and kills full models with each wound is always a good way to deal with those super tough units. Melta plasma spam for things like paladins also helps. Heavy flamers or even Flamestorm Cannons for Nob bikerz. No idea how you'd deal with thundercav to be honest.

 

Even if it doesn't feel like it we have counters to just about everything the enemy can throw at you.

[Hellios]

The problem with Deathstars for a lot of people is they treat it like any other unit and feed it a tactical squad and then the next turn they feed it another, then an assault squad, what is left of their terminators and finally their last tactical squad. Then they shout OMG cheese. If they had dumped 3 tactical squads an assault squad and the terminator squad on it at once... they probably would have killed it and put the other player on the back foot.

 

As for dealing with them... It depends on the unit but it is really about investing a significant number of units... If you have your own Deathstar then that might work for a 1 on 1. If you are running a MSU list then you might want to dump 5+ units on the deathstar. Some Deathstars also rely on a certain trick or special rule which might eb provided by a certain model, if you can remove that model you might be able to significantly weaken that unit.

 

 

As for why it happens? I guess they are reasonably competitive some of the time... I don't think it is a bad thing. MSU isn't a bad thing, Deathstars are not bad, balanced lists are fine and so are fluffy lists... I'm happy to see deathstars as long as I'm not playing against the same list over and over again.

[rpnightsend]

Thanks guys, you brought up a lot of good points, and i hope you're right about deathstars being nerfed in 6th. Zaku you may be misinterpretting "death star" - it doesnt mean a really good build, it means a certain unit that soaks a ton of points and is very powerful.

I still cant't figure out why they're encouraged, but i guess you're right DV8, only gw knows

[Rik Lightstar]

Sheer, unrelenting, overwhelming force!

 

More specifically weight of fire. don't ignore them with your bolters, killing 1 Paladin (or other DSU model) is well worth it. As mentioned, MOST of these units rely on the wound allocation rules (assuming these don't change) then every time you kill a model, ANY model, you make the unit less effective against your next "round" of shooting (next squad or next turn).

 

Rik

[TrashMan]

Deathstars are fun.

 

Why SHOULDN'T they be encouraged? Even better that they can save the player some money.

[DarkGuard]

OK guys, this is an interesting debate. However, as rpnightsend has already said it can encompass all armies. That is not an excuse to start drawing discussion away from the PA nature of this board and into non PA discussion. Basically, lets keep the examples and solutions of Deathstars PA only please. :blink:

 

As for why Deathstars exist? Well they're a cool concept, and cool is fun right? I think your over analysing it too much by stating that one player will never have fun when they're involved and therefore they shouldn't be supported. What about those people who don't like using MSU lists, people who get the most fun in fielding and supporting an elite unit? Must they set aside their personal enjoyment of the game because their opponent might get frustrated in killing them? And if they continue to use them I doubt their being put off too much by seeing it die.

 

Deathstar units are just another way to play the game. They don't suit some people, but others enjoy them. I myself, while initially ignoring Deathstars, started to use them a bit with Honour Guard, a mini-deathstar if you wish. They've proven capable of killing many things, including opposing Deathstars if supported well. That's one way to take them down, everyone at once.

 

The other, of course, is to just ignore them, but that's no fun. :)

[rpnightsend]

I apologize, as I make it seem like I think they shouldn't exist. I'm just wary of them, again because of their over-prevalence in WHFB and the fact I run one of two armies that doesn't have a decent death star. I just worry that if 6th edition does the same that 8th for WHFB did, we could end up with death stars being the ONLY way to play. As of right now, I find them an interesting thing to have to fight against, as they're not in EVERY list, but prevalent enough that i must prepare for them, hence my opening of discussion.

[Maj Tom]

My Second Question is more tactical. How do you handle them, when not fielding a death star of your own?

In both of my MEQ armies (Space Marines and Dark Angels) I really don't have much in the way of units like that (I realize i could potentially kit certain units out to do that job, but I prefer not to, and none have access to multiple-wound model musical wounds). Its often frustrating for me to have to either throw my whole army at one squad, or run in fear of them the whole game while trying to out maneuver them. How do you guys handle 40k Death Star units (specific ones or in general)?

 

Have you tried switching off your targeting computer?

[rpnightsend]

.... that's getting quoted

[facmanpob]

.... that's getting quoted

+1 :)

[Mysticaria]

I apologize, as I make it seem like I think they shouldn't exist. I'm just wary of them, again because of their over-prevalence in WHFB and the fact I run one of two armies that doesn't have a decent death star. I just worry that if 6th edition does the same that 8th for WHFB did, we could end up with death stars being the ONLY way to play. As of right now, I find them an interesting thing to have to fight against, as they're not in EVERY list, but prevalent enough that i must prepare for them, hence my opening of discussion.

Vindicators plus null zone usually work really well for me. Also, playing the mission. Was already mentioned, but can't stress enough that you really don't have to kill most deathstars. It usually isn't worth it in a kill point game, and they usually aren't troops who can score in an objective game. Most times you need to just keep them for wrecking your own plans.

 

I typically play a unit of 10 tactical terminators which comes in around 470 points (minus the HQ that sometimes goes in there). I've found that while not a true deathstar (5++ isn't invinvible after all) that I tend to have to make that unit the conerstone of my gameplan. Armies with units like that (more than 25% of the army) will also be thinking along the same lines. See if there is a way to take advantage of that. Pay attention to the mission, the deployment, where the other units are, and see if you can't counter their plan effectively.

 

-Myst

[AyanamiKun]

I played with a Death Star recently because I wanted to give Carneus Malgar (also known as the twin of Marneus Calgar) a farewell-5th-edition party :lol: He and his buddies drank too much and failed utterly.

 

That said I really dislike using death stars. They are way too much hit-or-miss and with my gaming group everyone knows how to slow down and evade death stars so they are just not worth the point sink at all for me!

 

Sometimes I use 10 tactical terminators because they soak up so much fire that the rest of the army stays relatively save and happy :)

[rpnightsend]

I feel like vanilla marines are the one army who can't bring a true death star to the field. Ive seen expensive termy and command squads, yes, but nothing that ever put the fear of god in my heart like seeing my opponent drop 10 paladins or a squad of thunderwolf cavalry on the table . Or the look i get when my nob bikers hit the field. I think thats my biggest fear of death stars becoming overly prevalent: some armies just do them better, and thats fine now because death stars arent required, but if 6th somehow buffs them, i know what its like to be someone without a one, and it makes the game no fun.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

No fun? NO FUN? I get so much enjoyment from slaughtering other peoples' death star units with my non-death star units that it should be criminal. I tabled a double Nob Biker list using Tactical Squads and Dreadnoughts once, and my glee was as self-evident as his disbelief. I made a GK player walk away from the table after I butchered his Paladins before they got halfway across the table My secret weapons? Massed plasma weapons and Null Zone. Concentrated fire. Tactical subtlety.

[DarkGuard]

I feel like vanilla marines are the one army who can't bring a true death star to the field. Ive seen expensive termy and command squads, yes, but nothing that ever put the fear of god in my heart like seeing my opponent drop 10 paladins or a squad of thunderwolf cavalry on the table . Or the look i get when my nob bikers hit the field. I think thats my biggest fear of death stars becoming overly prevalent: some armies just do them better, and thats fine now because death stars arent required, but if 6th somehow buffs them, i know what its like to be someone without a one, and it makes the game no fun.

 

Before TWC and Paladins were unleashed the humble squad of Hammernators in a Land Raider was perhaps the most potent deathstar unit. And to be honest, they're a great counter against many deathstars, especially when properly supported.

[Brother Navaer Solaq]

I personally never played with deathstars, but I play casual before. Now i am fielding always a 10 man terminator unit in the army. I need a unit that can attract a lot of fire.

 

Use to play always 2 LRs, but i found them not viable in games below 2,000.