What if Sanginus was Warmaster?

[Olis]

I'd need proof that Sanguinius was the 'most loved' of all the Primarchs

 

Didn't Horus himself say it in one of the opening trilogy in the Horus Heresy series?

 

Sanguinius wouldn't have been warmaster, because he wasn't Horus.

 

This thread isn't about whether he would have been a warmaster, it's about what would happen if he did. :lol:

[Lord_Caerolion]

Personally, I can see the Sanguinian Heresy being far different from the Horus Heresy, as I can't see Sanguinius converting as many of the Primarchs. Lorgar would turn, as would Vulkan and Corax, and perhaps even Fulgrim. The other currently loyal Primarchs would be tempted, as they somewhat agree with him, but not enough to rebel. I just can't see Sanguinius converting the Primarchs that don't have similar humanitarian views, or at least a rejection of the brutal tendencies of the wider Imperium. As such, the brutal Primarchs, like Angron, Manus and Perturabo, would probably be at the forefront of the Imperial retaliation, their tactics seen as necessary to put down this rebellion. Curze, if he still fell, would probably be independant, outcast by the Imperials, yet sickened by the overly-trusting Sanguinians. Perhaps he might even stay loyal, with this Heresy seen as his vindication for his harsh beliefs. However, I can see the Loyalists being far more tempted by this Heresy, as they can see where the rebels are coming from, even if they don't agree with it. As someone else stated, it would be a far more grass-roots level rebellion, with the Loyalists retaining far more Legions and Primarchs, but the Traitors gaining the support of far more Imperial Commanders and planets.

[Paradill]

I'd need proof that Sanguinius was the 'most loved' of all the Primarchs

 

Didn't Horus himself say it in one of the opening trilogy in the Horus Heresy series?

 

Sanguinius wouldn't have been warmaster, because he wasn't Horus.

 

This thread isn't about whether he would have been a warmaster, it's about what would happen if he did. :lol:

 

 

Agreed, but my point was that these threads are moot. Sanguinius would only have been warmaster if he was Horus in all but name, in which case the only difference would be that the Sanguinius Heresy would be rued throughout the galaxy and the sacrifice of the angelic Horus would be mourned.

 

No one but Horus could be warmaster so the only thing that would change is the name. The personality, skill set and thought processes had to be Horus.

 

Just my opinion of course, so please don't take any offence. I know my tone can seem distantly clinical.

 

Paradill

[PandaSandwich]

Sanguinius would probably be no different in terms of leadership than Gulliman or Dorn in the same situation. The Crusade would still be largely successful and imperial influence would probably still spread as a result. Because of the huge freaking wings poking out of his back, I think he would be more readily accepted as a godlike being and the emperor might have asked him to tone down the angelic appearance a bit for first impressions.

 

Horus would still be the prime candidate for corruption because of his more personal connection to the emperor. The drop site massacre would likely have taken place elsewhere and Sanguinius would probably have been a priority one target in the immediate stages of Horus' betrayal because of his command over a larger portion of Imperial forces. In this scenario I think it's most likely that Sang. would be killed off or warp-lost before the fight ever got to Terra. Leaving the Imperial palace minus one Primarch and the majority of Blood Angels.

 

Sorry if this is hard to read. Typing on a tiny screen!

[Olis]

Agreed, but my point was that these threads are moot.

 

I usually like to think of them as thought excercises, myself. The what if's, the why's, the wherefore's, etc, etc. Rather than reskinning Horus, we explore the butterfly effect (backwards and forwards) of placing Sanguinius in a role he never had before.

 

Just my opinion of course, so please don't take any offence. I know my tone can seem distantly clinical.

 

None taken, brother, far from it. :(

[Arkangilos]

Also, just because Sanguinius is warmaster doesn't mean that Horus is lower than him. Heck, even as the brightest star, maybe the Emperor felt he wanted him in a more advisory role, or maybe had another job for him to do that prohibited him from being Warmaster at the time.

[Paradill]

Also, just because Sanguinius is warmaster doesn't mean that Horus is lower than him. Heck, even as the brightest star, maybe the Emperor felt he wanted him in a more advisory role, or maybe had another job for him to do that prohibited him from being Warmaster at the time.

 

Surely the position of warmaster could only go to the brightest star? I know that if I leave someone in charge of my 200+ year long excercise in crackin' skulls, I wouldn't leave it to anyone except the best. I'd feel like I was insulting The best one for the job by choosing him for something else. Then again, I've been cracking skulls for well over two hundred years now and still don't have the urge to go and hack into the elder Interweb so I guess that means I win!

 

 

Sanguinius as warmaster, in this highly specialised alternate universe where the emperor not only makes the same old poor choices as before but also makes MORE poor choices, I would think the following: Sanguinius being Sanguinius would probably be a little bit harder to corrupt, but be corrupted he would. As warmaster he would be a prime target for chaos, and Lorgar was set upon the path of corruption some fifty years before the dawn of the heresy, that gives him more than enough time to alter his plans and accommodate the complete corruption of Sanguinius.

 

The gods of chaos are dangerous not because they say "Hi, we're evil and would love all of humankind to bow to us, worship us and make us more powerful! Come join us!" they are dangerous because they make you think it was your own idea to rebel, playing on your pride, or wish to protect those you care for or appeal to your sense of honour or righteousness. Sanguinius, if he had been a more concerted target of corruption would have fell through his desire to protect I feel.

 

The only reason Sang didn't fall to Chaos aboard the vengeful spirit is becaus it was Horus' last ditch effort, no time for subtle plays on personality flaws or the incessant drip, drip, dripping of doubt, it was an offer of "join us or die". As warmaster, Sang would have been a huge target, perhaps dragging a whole ten legions into the side of chaos, with Sang there, his oratory and strong relationships may have even persuaded more Primarchs that the cause was just.

 

Or maybe he would have carved "4 Dada" into khornes eyeballs, asked slaanesh when the next op is, distracted tzeentch with the puzzles of a happy meal box and thrown anti-biotics at nurgle. Then he would go and say "s'up " to kHa bhanda, thus curing the black rage in all alt versus, cos bloodthirsters just want to be noticed.

 

Paradill

[c-wrex]

cos bloodthirsters just want to be noticed.

 

Paradill

 

Thirsters gonna thirst!

 

I really feel like the heresy would have revolved around the inter-alliances of the brothers, no matter who became Warmaster. Vulkan and Ferrus would be on the same team, and Alphomegon would still be broski's with Horus. Guilliman would fight by Dorn, Perturabo would fight opposite because B) Dorn. In my mind the Heresy would have happened regardless, and the only difference would be which brothers fought for the Emprah, and which would have fought for kay-oss.

[DarkLiege]

After giving it some thought on the matter, I just realize something. No matter what happens of Sang. being warmaster or, well, anyone, it will still be a "Horus heresy".

 

There's a reason for this.

 

With Sang. warmaster, the chaos gods could whispers to Horus saying something along the lines of "Oh well, Horus, too bad your not warmaster! So you want to join us?, we'll giving you more than the title. we'll make you the emperor instead." And will from there, Horus could go on to corrupting Sang. maing it seem like its his heresy when its about Horus.

 

This is what I seem to have come across in my mind. Feel free to correct me or whatnots. :P

[Brother Keyaetus]

I reckon people woulda been against the 'mutant' part of him :pinch:

 

I wonder if the horus heresy forum will eventually have a 'what if *blank* was warmaster' for every person :down:

[Llagos_Tyrant]

I was actually thinking about this not too long ago and was debating putting something up. It seems it's been done for me.

 

I definitely agree with the previous posts about Sanguinus falling because of his compassion being turned against the Emperor and the Imperium. For that, I could see Vulkan, Corax and Fulgrim turning like the previous posts - although Curze I feel was doomed from the start. His legion would still be outcast from the others though.

 

The Thousand Sons and the Space Wolves would be interesting. It would be neat if Sanguinus had Leman Russ trapped and condemned to Nurgle en route to Prospero. Thousands of rabid, crazed, decaying space wolves would be one hell of a sight. The Thousand Sons would go on to be very much a Grey Knights esque force - or would go on to effectively take over the tutorship and teaching of all the legions librarians.

 

Pertuarbo wouldn't have turned simply to be against Dorn, I believe. He would need a bigger incentive - and if this is a ground up movement, as is likely, then he wouldn't follow the will of the common man. Perhaps though, some of his legion can't get past their rivalry and seize the opportunity to attack the Fists and join the Blood Angels in Heresy? A bit of a reverse Age of Darkness short story (forget the name) on the scale of the Dark Angels? Who else might suffer like that anyway? Fulgrim and his friends? And if this is a ground-up movement, then I'd expect more than one legion to have a civil war. The Last Remembrancer short story makes me wonder if Dorn was doubting his father. Maybe another civil war situation in the Fists?

 

My idea was pretty much -

 

Blood Angels (Flesh Tearers?) - Chaos (AgainstImperium)

Space Wolves (Blight Wolves?) - Chaos (Tricked into Nurgle)

Raven Guard (Raven Guard) - Chaos (AgainstImperium)

Salamanders (Dragon Warriors) - Chaos (Lured into Tzeentch for magic forges/Fall to Khorne for Pyromaniacs)

Night Lords (Night Lords) - Chaos (Outcast before Heresy)

Imperial Heralds (Word Bearers) - Chaos (Turned Sanguinus?)

 

Whit Scars - Split (Loyal/OutcastsAgainstImperium) - Jaghati Loyal

Iron Warriors - Split (Loyal/ChaosAgainstFists) - Pertuarbo Loyal

Imperial Fists - Split (Loyal/ChaosAgainstImperium) - Dorn Traitor

 

Luna Wolves - Loyal

Dark Angels - Loyal

Emperors Children - Loyal

War Hounds - Loyal

Ultramarines - Loyal (Maybe split loyal/ChaosAgainstImperium - Guilliman Traitor)

Death Guard - Loyal

Alpha Legion - Loyal

Thousand Sons - Loyal (Psychic Specialty/Training due to low numbers from flesh change)

Iron Hands - Loyal

[Arkangilos]

Also, just because Sanguinius is warmaster doesn't mean that Horus is lower than him. Heck, even as the brightest star, maybe the Emperor felt he wanted him in a more advisory role, or maybe had another job for him to do that prohibited him from being Warmaster at the time.

 

Surely the position of warmaster could only go to the brightest star? I know that if I leave someone in charge of my 200+ year long excercise in crackin' skulls, I wouldn't leave it to anyone except the best. I'd feel like I was insulting The best one for the job by choosing him for something else. Then again, I've been cracking skulls for well over two hundred years now and still don't have the urge to go and hack into the elder Interweb so I guess that means I win!

 

 

I don't know, would it be an insult to the brightest star if the Emperor made Sanguinius warmaster and took Horus BACK to Terra with him rather than Dorn? I mean, which do you think would be worse? Being made warmaster and being "abandoned" by your father (which is how he felt), or having your brother named warmaster, and your father takes you back home with him, where you can learn how/what/why he is doing things?

 

I would pick quality time with my father any day.

[DarkLiege]

I was actually thinking about this not too long ago and was debating putting something up. It seems it's been done for me.

 

No problem, I was also thinking about it for sometime now. So...Glad to be of service to you.

 

My idea was pretty much -

 

Blood Angels (Flesh Tearers?) - Chaos (AgainstImperium)

Space Wolves (Blight Wolves?) - Chaos (Tricked into Nurgle)

Raven Guard (Raven Guard) - Chaos (AgainstImperium)

Salamanders (Dragon Warriors) - Chaos (Lured into Tzeentch for magic forges/Fall to Khorne for Pyromaniacs)

Night Lords (Night Lords) - Chaos (Outcast before Heresy)

Imperial Heralds (Word Bearers) - Chaos (Turned Sanguinus?)

 

Whit Scars - Split (Loyal/OutcastsAgainstImperium) - Jaghati Loyal

Iron Warriors - Split (Loyal/ChaosAgainstFists) - Pertuarbo Loyal

Imperial Fists - Split (Loyal/ChaosAgainstImperium) - Dorn Traitor

 

Luna Wolves - Loyal

Dark Angels - Loyal

Emperors Children - Loyal

War Hounds - Loyal

Ultramarines - Loyal (Maybe split loyal/ChaosAgainstImperium - Guilliman Traitor)

Death Guard - Loyal

Alpha Legion - Loyal

Thousand Sons - Loyal (Psychic Specialty/Training due to low numbers from flesh change)

Iron Hands - Loyal

 

I got the same thing but a different version to it all.

 

Here's my version of how it could play out:

 

Sons of Horus--Chaos Undivided(Horus(jealous of Sang. and passed over for Warmaster?) is the one that sew the seed of chaos in Sang. with Kor Phaeron help)

Blood Angels--Chaos Undivided(Warmaster after final battle of Ullanor campaign?)

Salamanders--Slannesh Worship(Loves to burn everything and see people suffer in their flames

Raven Guards--Tzeetch Worship

Night Lords--Chaos Undivided(Already alone/outcast)

Warhounds--Khrone Worship(Same as canon)

Part of the space wolves who rebel--Nurgle Worship

 

Dark Angels--Civil War(Luther's and Lion's)

Emperor's Children--Civil War

Word Bearers--Civil War(Lorgar and Kor Phaeron)

White Scars--Civil War

Iron Hands--Civil War?(Something to do with the mechanicus?)

Iron Warriors--Civil War(Hatred for imperial fist splits them with Perturabo leading the traitors)

Alpha Legion--Civil War(Alpha with the emperor and his twin with the view of cabal)

Ultramarines--civil War(Some gave to chaos by words of Sang. and Kor Phaeron)

Space Wolves--civil War(Their hatred for the thousand sons)

 

Death Guards--Loyal

Imperial Fists--Loyal

Thousand Sons--Loyal

 

Something alone this line of thought. So what you guys thing of this? Possible?

[Antarius]

Well, it's fiction, so anything, everything and nothing is possible depending on what you do with it :(

 

In the same vein, Sanguinius might've fallen or he might not and it would probably be inevitable either way. In a sense it's "useless" to speculate since whatever "needs" to happen for the fiction to work can happen and seem reasonable, no matter how weird it might seem at first glance. After all, Horus was the primarch nobody would ever suspect of acting against the Imperium in the "real" storyline.

 

That said, I do enjoy these "what if" threads (although nothing will ever touch the Dornian Heresy for sheer ingenuity and amount of thought and effort put into it).

[Grey Knight Purifier]

May I just ask one question?

 

Dorn.

 

He is the Emperor's Praetorian, and one of, if not the most stable Primarchs. However, in every alternate telling of the Heresy, he falls to Chaos. What gives? I find it very hard to believe that he would turn his back on his dad so easily.

[Legatus]

in every alternate telling of the Heresy, he falls to Chaos. What gives?

Isn't that kinda the point of those "alternative heresy" stories?

[DarkLiege]

May I just ask one question?

 

Dorn.

 

He is the Emperor's Praetorian, and one of, if not the most stable Primarchs. However, in every alternate telling of the Heresy, he falls to Chaos. What gives? I find it very hard to believe that he would turn his back on his dad so easily.

 

To me, Not sure if anyone agree with this or not, Dorn is just too good of a goody two shoe whose loyal does not have a flaw which is why people like to place Dorn or like to see him in a 'different light.' this is the only reason that I think most people place Dorn as chaos is just thus. Not really looking for a flame war of this whole argument but just people 'exploring' the remote possibility of it is all. Hopes this helps out in answering your question. :D

[Pope]

To Quote KNF:

 

 

[Horus'] selection as Warmaster makes reasonable sense. It was only going to be one of three or perhaps four[...] To be the Emperor's avatar, his proxy? Only Horus, Guilliman, Sanguinius, perhaps Dorn. Any other claims for viability were delusional. Even narrowed down to four, Dorn was too draconian and Sanguinius too ethereal. It was only ever going to be Horus or Guilliman. Horus always had the passion and the charisma. Guilliman was more clinical, considered.[...]

Guilliman had already evolved beyond the status of a warlord, where Horus was still a killer of worlds and a subjugator of adversaries.

Maybe Warmaster Horus is aware of this disparity, that even in his triumphant election, he has been outstripped by a brother who does not even want for the honour of Warmaster any more. Perhaps that is why Horus needs to exercise his authority and gives orders to the XIII[...]

Or perhaps the new Warmaster is more creative than that, and sees this as a chance for Lorgar's rabble to borrow a little gloss from Guilliman's glory by association and example

[Horus']

[The Broker]

KNF is written from the perspective of the Ultramarines.

 

Nearly all marines would've considered their own Primarch a good candidate for the position of Warmaster, and would have found reasons why others were inappropriate.

 

We see repeatedly that marines overlook their Primarch's flaws (Fulgrim being a prime example) and even seek to emulate them, so their opinions of the Primarchs are too biased to be taken seriously.

[Captain Idaho]

Agreed about the general way novels are written is from a particular perspective even if written as an omnipotent narrator (the great myth).

 

I would, however, say that there is a kernal of truth in some of the perspectives in Know No Fear. The reason I say this is because of all the comments from other characters in other novels in the Heresy Series about Guilliman and his Legion.

 

And his track record.

 

And his subsequent actions as Warmaster (I mean Lord Commander Solar, of course).

 

So yeah, I believe the opinions weren't entirely biased. :P

[gogmagog]

Sometimes I wish the Heresy never happened. Given the choice I would play Great Crusade only. Particularly if the rumours of a forgeworld rulebook are true.

[lokkorex]

Pope: that quote makes me wanna puke.

 

are we sure Dan Abnett isn't under mind-control from Mat Ward?

 

seriously, the more i hear about the ultramarines being the best marines ever, the less i believe it.

 

it reeks of overcompensation.

[Legatus]

Pope: that quote makes me wanna puke.

 

are we sure Dan Abnett isn't under mind-control from Mat Ward?

But... what he described in the quote is nothing new really, is it? And I am not sure Abnett is that big on Ultramarines. Before the novels release he was teasing with lines such as "it is time for a loyalist centered Horus Heresy Novel, the Battle of Calth was basically the Ultramarines kicking traitor butts frond left and center", but then he took the accomplishments previous accounts of the battle had described completely away from the Ultramarines. The Ultramarines could hardly have looked worse in a "Battle for Calth" story other than with a complete 180 retcon of them actually loosing. That's what Dan almost did, too. For the author who makes the Legions he writes about the most awesomest ever (see AL, SW), he showed remarkable restraint when it came to making the Ultramarines look awesome.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

I agree, for most of the novel, it did seem like the UM were losing. They were shown to never have expected an attack from another legion.

[The Broker]

Agreed about the general way novels are written is from a particular perspective even if written as an omnipotent narrator (the great myth).

 

I would, however, say that there is a kernal of truth in some of the perspectives in Know No Fear. The reason I say this is because of all the comments from other characters in other novels in the Heresy Series about Guilliman and his Legion.

 

And his track record.

 

And his subsequent actions as Warmaster (I mean Lord Commander Solar, of course).

 

So yeah, I believe the opinions weren't entirely biased. ;)

 

Tbh, I think in KNF it would have been nice had there been parallels drawn between Konor and the Emperor - both betrayed by a close friend, and later on, both killed by their betrayer while Guilliman was far away.

 

Would be interesting to see how Guilliman deals with this recurring feature considering he's mentioned as flying into a rage at the word of Konor's death. Even stranger that he didn't set course for Terra straight after hearing of the Heresy - maybe he felt closer to Konor than the Emperor?