What if Sanginus was Warmaster?

[Captain Idaho]

It's not strange at all when you consider the destruction of the fleet, assaults from traitor forces and a significant enemy prescence on Calth even after the war in space was won. Not to mention the block on warp travel set up by Erebus at Calth.

[The Broker]

It's not strange at all when you consider the destruction of the fleet, assaults from traitor forces and a significant enemy prescence on Calth even after the war in space was won. Not to mention the block on warp travel set up by Erebus at Calth.

 

I just want to see the parallels drawn between the two events - both times Guilliman has to seize control of an Empire after a close ally kills his father in an attempt to seize power.

[Legatus]

Tbh, I think in KNF it would have been nice had there been parallels drawn between Konor and the Emperor - both betrayed by a close friend, and later on, both killed by their betrayer while Guilliman was far away.

But then the Emperor had not been killed in KNF, so it would have made no sense to point out a similarity to Konor's death there. Maybe in a book about the Ultramarines' actions during the scouring, but not in KNF.

[Conn Eremon]

I just want to see the parallels drawn between the two events - both times Guilliman has to seize control of an Empire after a close ally kills his father in an attempt to seize power.

 

Isn't the parallel already obvious? A lot of the Primarchs, pre-discovery, went through something related to their deeds after discovery. Guilliman's was the after-effects of the Heresy. Some were pretty blatant, like the Night Haunter getting a full-on vision of it. Some were just as obvious, like Magnus landing on a world plagued by psyker-hunting predators, when afterward he and his Legion are taken by Tzeentch, a psyker-hunting alpha predator.

 

That, and it made the parallel between Guilliman and Julius Caesar all the more obvious. Guilliman's adopted father's death led to exile, just like Julius Caesar's adopted father's death did. Guilliman goes on to conquer the barbaric north to make of himself a consul, just like Julius Caesar did. Guilliman returns powerfully enough and renowned enough to make of himself dictator over all of the Empire, just like Julius Caesar did. Guilliman's brilliant tactics and strategems are all said to be rooted in his mastery in the logistics of war, just like Julius Caesar. Guilliman's place as ruler over Ultramar dramatically changes the republican government originally in place to make of it a true Empire, just as Julius Caesar's rule cemented the end of the Roman Republic. Guilliman was even et tu, Brute'd by Fulgrim. I'm pretty sure they chose the name 'Roboute Guilliman' because it sounds French, the land that used to be called Gaul and was fully conquered for the Romans by Julius Caesar.

 

Sorry, that got away from me there. I always found it amusing that people would think that the wolfy wolfiness of Space Wolves are bad, or that making the base theme obvious is bad, and use the Ultramarines as a prime example of subtle. You couldn't make Guilliman more like Julius Caesar unless you hit him over the head with Cleopatra. But then I haven't read Know No Fear yet. Has anyone sneaked their way to him by hiding in flooring?

[Legatus]

Guilliman's adopted father's death led to exile, just like Julius Caesar's adopted father's death did. Guilliman goes on to conquer the barbaric north to make of himself a consul, just like Julius Caesar did. Guilliman returns powerfully enough and renowned enough to make of himself dictator over all of the Empire, just like Julius Caesar did.

It was not exactly like that. Almost. Guilliman was campaigning in the north under order of his father, King Konor. The coup was initiated while Guilliman was gone, but fighting in the capital city between the loyalists and usurpers was still going when he returned. He merely returned from his campaign, finding the city in turmoil. He was not exiled, had to establish his power base, and then returned to challenge the current ruler.

 

 

I'm pretty sure they chose the name 'Roboute Guilliman' because it sounds French, the land that used to be called Gaul and was fully conquered for the Romans by Julius Caesar.

Their Primarchs name predates the roman theme. He was already known as Roboute Guilliman in 1st Edition, most notably in the Index Astartes article about the Ultramarines around that time. The Ultramarine characters in that article had names such as "Cha Lee", "Tow Takka-Chow", or "Keorn Asata". Unless I am missing some of their Rogue Trader material, I'd say the Ultramarines were first "romanized" for the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines.

 

 

I always found it amusing that people would think that the wolfy wolfiness of Space Wolves are bad, or that making the base theme obvious is bad, and use the Ultramarines as a prime example of subtle. You couldn't make Guilliman more like Julius Caesar unless you hit him over the head with Cleopatra.

Urm, :D I'd say the Space Wolve/Viking connection is a bit more on the nose than the Guilliman/Julius Caesar connection. Especially since prior to the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines Guillimans back story was not that widely known, and/or because the details of Julius Caesar's life are not common knowledge. But fuzzy beards, wearing pelts and swinging axes? Yeah.

[WolfGuardVortek]

Urm, ;) I'd say the Space Wolve/Viking connection is a bit more on the nose than the Guilliman/Julius Caesar connection. Especially since prior to the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines Guillimans back story was not that widely known, and/or because the details of Julius Caesar's life are not common knowledge. But fuzzy beards, wearing pelts and swinging axes? Yeah.

This description also fits numerous tribes in what is now Germany and France, not just just the vikings.

 

Honestly, that actual Norse elements in the space wolves are slightly more subtle and it's of Generic Fantasy Barbarian that the reader gets beaten over the head with in regards to the space wolves.

[mmaarrkk]

Well Ultramar was already in a better situation wasn't it? Where as Baal was a complete wasteland without any real culture left. They were nothing but scavengers, and he turned that around.

 

But I do agree that Horus was speaking from self doubt.

 

+edit+

And I know Ultramar was not really unified, but it was in far better shape than Baal, from what I recall.

 

And what I mean by what he did with it, I mean how he transformed a barren wasteland with little culture and full of people who had to scavenge to survive into what he had turned it into.

 

A warmaster is exactly that, i doubt the big E would have kept a warmaster when the crusade was over and thats when the real advancements in culture, well being of population, rebuilding and non miltary science advancements would have started

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Well Ultramar was already in a better situation wasn't it? Where as Baal was a complete wasteland without any real culture left. They were nothing but scavengers, and he turned that around.

 

But I do agree that Horus was speaking from self doubt.

 

+edit+

And I know Ultramar was not really unified, but it was in far better shape than Baal, from what I recall.

 

And what I mean by what he did with it, I mean how he transformed a barren wasteland with little culture and full of people who had to scavenge to survive into what he had turned it into.

 

A warmaster is exactly that, i doubt the big E would have kept a warmaster when the crusade was over and thats when the real advancements in culture, well being of population, rebuilding and non miltary science advancements would have started

 

lets say the Grest Crusade was over the realm established and potential opponents within its borders eliminated...do you honestly think a galaxy spanning empire would suddenly find itself without wars to fight?

 

WLK

[Captain Rolunde]

Good point, WLK.

 

We can just look to the Tyranid invasion to see that there are other threats to Humanity in the Universe.

 

It's not a big stretch to imagine the Imperial War Machine taking the battle to them had things worked out better for the Imperium.

 

Imagine reversing the roles, and in the Tyranid galaxy the Imperium is invading, leaving not but scorched planets in their wake.

[WolfGuardVortek]

I don't see that working out too well.

[calgar101]

By conquering the galaxy the Imperium may not have actually eradicated the Eldar, Orks or Dark Eldar though and chaos would be a thorn in the side for a long time as would rebellious worlds.

[DarkLiege]

By conquering the galaxy the Imperium may not have actually eradicated the Eldar, Orks or Dark Eldar though and chaos would be a thorn in the side for a long time as would rebellious worlds.

 

Let not forget to ever presence danger of the Necrons, themselves.

 

Even if the Imperium get to 'explore' the other universes then it might just huddle in a new age to humanity.

 

Chaos and the Orks will always be a hinder to the Imperium. The Eldar could be an advisor but mostly unlikely for it. Etc..

[mmaarrkk]

lets say the Grest Crusade was over the realm established and potential opponents within its borders eliminated...do you honestly think a galaxy spanning empire would suddenly find itself without wars to fight?

 

WLK

 

 

War enough for a warmaster? no. Thats what plantary governers with PDF's, chapter masters, BT crusades etc etc are for. If the great crusade was succesful there would still be hundreds of thousands of loyal marines, primarchs with a longer legacy then they have now, stilll the big E on terra most of the current threats would cess to be a threat.

 

Would also make for a very boring game

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

lets say the Grest Crusade was over the realm established and potential opponents within its borders eliminated...do you honestly think a galaxy spanning empire would suddenly find itself without wars to fight?

 

WLK

 

 

War enough for a warmaster? no. Thats what plantary governers with PDF's, chapter masters, BT crusades etc etc are for. If the great crusade was succesful there would still be hundreds of thousands of loyal marines, primarchs with a longer legacy then they have now, stilll the big E on terra most of the current threats would cess to be a threat.

 

Would also make for a very boring game

 

as nicely as i can say this, thats wishful thinking at its best. or worst. take your pic.

 

any empire built solely upon the sword will never be able to lay that sword down. all they (or the majority of the primarchs) know is war and conquest, and if every possible enemy was wiped out (impossible but lets pretend) then they would create enemies amongst each other.

 

or, if the Emperor prevented that, they could wage war outside the known galaxy. the nids are said to have eaten everything in its path, implying multiple galaxies are in existence. sending half of your Astartes in different directions in the name of further conquest until something is good enough to wipe them all out.

 

WLK

[mmaarrkk]

as nicely as i can say this, thats wishful thinking at its best. or worst. take your pic.

 

any empire built solely upon the sword will never be able to lay that sword down. all they (or the majority of the primarchs) know is war and conquest, and if every possible enemy was wiped out (impossible but lets pretend) then they would create enemies amongst each other.

 

or, if the Emperor prevented that, they could wage war outside the known galaxy. the nids are said to have eaten everything in its path, implying multiple galaxies are in existence. sending half of your Astartes in different directions in the name of further conquest until something is good enough to wipe them all out.

 

WLK

 

As hard as it is to speculate what this empire would do the emperor had a plan and i doubt it was constant war,, in the HH books a few times characters have been aghast at the possible future of all out war and quite a few others knew once the GC was over SM would be redundant and would need to find a new role, in knf a UM captain is told one day he might have to be a plantary gov or something along those lines. If you are comparing real world 'empires' to the imperium there are a few examples where empires have exsisted after giving up 'war'. War is a means to a end imo.

 

How many marines are there in 40k?

 

Also would we say the imperium is built soley on the sword as you suggest? pre HH of course

[WolfGuardVortek]

The sword or threat there of. Once you get to the point of saying "Join my Empire or I destroy you" , Your building pretty much exclusively by the sword. Especially when your doing this to people who are doing quite well on there own without you.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

As hard as it is to speculate what this empire would do the emperor had a plan and i doubt it was constant war,, in the HH books a few times characters have been aghast at the possible future of all out war and quite a few others knew once the GC was over SM would be redundant and would need to find a new role, in knf a UM captain is told one day he might have to be a plantary gov or something along those lines. If you are comparing real world 'empires' to the imperium there are a few examples where empires have exsisted after giving up 'war'. War is a means to a end imo.

 

How many marines are there in 40k?

 

Also would we say the imperium is built soley on the sword as you suggest? pre HH of course

 

these are the same marines aghast at the thought of fighting one another, or the existence of daemons...the ignorance of the Marines (and the imperium) is staggering, and their naive belief is part of the tragedy of the Heresy.

 

i see the Marines planning for a better future to be a dream, a desire for something that is unattainble. they dream of a better world, when the wars are over, but live in the 40k world, where the wars know no end. they might plan for such a future to add validity to their existence, but deep down know they have no place in such a better world. most marines (to me) are like the Operative in "Serenity". I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there... any more than there is for you. Malcolm... I'm a monster.What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done..

 

and yes, the pre-HH Imperium is built upon the sword, or as WolfGuardVortek put it, the threat of the sword. The Emperor went to each of the warlord of Terra and gave them a choice: join my rule or be utterly destroyed. The Emperor created the Thunder Warriors to smash through those that refused, monsters who make Marines look weak n comparison. Remember Grammaticus's impression of the Emperor? The Imperium of Man is founded on the bones of those that defy it. It is only constant war, or the threat of war, that preserves what is known as peace in the Imperium.

 

Rebel, and the Angels of Death will come for you. They will descend on your world, purge you, your family, those that agree with you, and any who stand in their way. And the sad part, in the 40k verse, they are the GOOD GUYS (or as close as such a crapsack setting can have)

 

WLK

[DarkLiege]

I just have to say just this one thing and then I'll be relieve. ;) I just love how my post went from Sang. as Warmaster to what would happen to the Imperium if there were no Heresy. :) It's not that I frown upon this but just find it funny was all.

[mmaarrkk]

The sword or threat there of. Once you get to the point of saying "Join my Empire or I destroy you" , Your building pretty much exclusively by the sword. Especially when your doing this to people who are doing quite well on there own without you.

 

And how many worlds didnt embrace the imp?, you have no idea it could well of been a very small amount.

 

And yes we know about the thunder warriors killing opposition but in the wider imperium that isnt well known or at least lost in history, people only remember the good things i.e the Emperor united Terra.

 

A quote from a HH book

 

A crusade mounted and an Imperium held together by the promise of communication and cooperation.

 

From a tratior no less. The hole point of the HH was to establish a setting where humainty couldnt progress but had enough strength not to fall, it is stagenent that much is clear, look at the GC nothing stood in the imp's way and without the HH nothing could have. The eldar had a galaxy spanning empire at their height and what happened to them

 

To say oh they will go to another galaxy and start war, it will hardly reflect across the whole imperium will it

[Vesper]

I'm pretty sure they chose the name 'Roboute Guilliman' because it sounds French, the land that used to be called Gaul and was fully conquered for the Romans by Julius Caesar.

 

I'm French and it hardly sounds French to me.

To be honest, 'guili' is a childish word for 'tickle'. So yeah, imagine the Primarch of the Ultramarines being called Roboute Tickleman.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

The sword or threat there of. Once you get to the point of saying "Join my Empire or I destroy you" , Your building pretty much exclusively by the sword. Especially when your doing this to people who are doing quite well on there own without you.

 

And how many worlds didnt embrace the imp?, you have no idea it could well of been a very small amount.

 

And yes we know about the thunder warriors killing opposition but in the wider imperium that isnt well known or at least lost in history, people only remember the good things i.e the Emperor united Terra.

 

A quote from a HH book

 

A crusade mounted and an Imperium held together by the promise of communication and cooperation.

 

From a tratior no less. The hole point of the HH was to establish a setting where humainty couldnt progress but had enough strength not to fall, it is stagenent that much is clear, look at the GC nothing stood in the imp's way and without the HH nothing could have. The eldar had a galaxy spanning empire at their height and what happened to them

 

To say oh they will go to another galaxy and start war, it will hardly reflect across the whole imperium will it

 

if that is what you want to believe, then go for it. i am sure you can cherry pick a few quotes to validate your point of view of the Imperium creation.

 

the problem is, nearly everything else in print says otherwise.one of my favorite cases was the short story "Wolf at the Door" (i believe), when the Wolves found a lone planet being harvested by the dark eldar. the people of the planet held a lottery, and the "winners" of thsi lottery got handed over to the dark eldar. the wolves, squad sized, found out abhout this and launched an attack on the dark eldar. over time they linked up with the planetary defenders, and together broke the dark eldars hold on the planet as the wolf fleet drove off the dark eldar in orbit.

victorious, the wolf turns to his ally and says "cool, now that your free of the xenos you can join the imperium"

the human replies, "heck no. we just frred ourselves from them, we arent becoming you slaves"

 

the wolf begs him to reconsider, and when the guy says no, the wolf cuts him down and then orders the bombardment of the planet on the still celebrating humans.

 

thats how the Imperium rolls. Join us or get your face blown off. repeatedly.

 

WLK

[Retributis]

That story was fantastic. It perfectly shows what the Imperium and the Astartes are.

[mmaarrkk]

And you can cherry pick one story to validate your arguement, I could find plently more but I was nearly at the end of a HH book last night and read that quote i remembered it as it was exactly what i was thinking of.

 

Right so lets just say the imp is a a empire forged on the sword, (imo moot as it is now ive said that, every planet with humans on was from earth at some point in their history and a lot of cultures remember that and welcomed terra, it was as much re discovery as reconquest, but i suppose reading fluff about planets saying hey man i come from earth through my ancestors x amount of years ago, i'll join!, wouldnt be interesting).

 

I still stand by the fact that with 18 full legions, 10k years of advancement, a mechanium free to create technolgy not just for war, the reduced use of the warp etc etc the big e on the throne and longer leagcy of 18 primarches the imperium would not need a warmaster

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

One thing that strike me about most of the alternate heresy's is that they just swap everyone around.

[Chengar Qordath]

One thing that strike me about most of the alternate heresy's is that they just swap everyone around.

Yeah. Most alternate heresies go the route of turning all the loyalists traitor and all the traitors loyalist, and largely keeping the rest of the setting the same.