Arkangilos Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Or was the Emperor right? Are they just trans-dimensional aliens as Horus said in the first HH book? Sure they demand worship, but that does not make them gods. There have been humans that demand worship, and there have been stories (in real life and in 40k) where aliens are worshiped as Gods. It would be easy for an alien of unimaginable powers to convince humans that they are gods. Especially if they live in another dimension. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254381-are-they-really-gods/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoros Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Check The First Heretic: Lorgar says something to the effect of "they're not gods like the christian god is, but they're totes powerful, yo". Also, this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254381-are-they-really-gods/#findComment-3089641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 For me Beta Ray Bill is an alien. Thor is a god. So i can safely say that the Pantheon are gods. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254381-are-they-really-gods/#findComment-3089646 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Check The First Heretic: Lorgar says something to the effect of "they're not gods like the christian god is, but they're totes powerful, yo".Also, this. Have to agree there. Whether or not they're actual gods depends on which definition you're using, but at that point you're arguing semantics. By pretty much every standard other than the Abrahamic one (which doesn't allow the possibility of other deities anyway) they would either qualify as either gods or god-equivalent entities. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254381-are-they-really-gods/#findComment-3089647 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 Check The First Heretic: Lorgar says something to the effect of "they're not gods like the christian god is, but they're totes powerful, yo".Also, this. Have to agree there. Whether or not they're actual gods depends on which definition you're using, but at that point you're arguing semantics. By pretty much every standard other than the Abrahamic one (which doesn't allow the possibility of other deities anyway) they would either qualify as either gods or god-equivalent entities. So then, the Emperor could be right if it is about semantics. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254381-are-they-really-gods/#findComment-3089652 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Personnaly, I do think they are gods because of the way they came to conciousness and how they gain power. Plus, their gifts, their abilities... Well, it's way above what every living thing is able to achieve on its own. I fail to see why they wouldn't be gods. They bear similarities with other pantheons in the human history, sometimes even in the way they act (giving gifts, demanding worship, doing godly things), in a twisted way, of course. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254381-are-they-really-gods/#findComment-3089740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Týr Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 "There are no gods" as Magnus says and in my opinion it's true. And this is what I think about the matter: They are merely reflections of powerful emotions originating from sentient life throughout the galaxy. These energies are intelligent, because what "creates" them is. They are immensely powerful sentient energies that have "godlike powers" when compared to an everyday human. But a human can be considered to have "godlike powers" when compared to a simple single celled organism. It's a matter of perspective. The energies some worship as "gods" are nothing more than the collective shadow of a galaxy caught up in never ending violence. Most important to remember is: if it exist there is science and maths that describe it. Nothing exist outside the laws of nature, and therfore there are no gods. (I know the warp dosen't obery the laws of our universe, but it still has it's own laws of nature. Otherwise gellar fields couldn't exist) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254381-are-they-really-gods/#findComment-3089753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 They are immensely powerful sentient energies that have "godlike powers" when compared to an everyday human. But a human can be considered to have "godlike powers" when compared to a simple single celled organism. It's a matter of perspective. That is exactly what are gods, no ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254381-are-they-really-gods/#findComment-3089762 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Týr Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 They are immensely powerful sentient energies that have "godlike powers" when compared to an everyday human. But a human can be considered to have "godlike powers" when compared to a simple single celled organism. It's a matter of perspective. That is exactly what are gods, no ? "gods" are something that defies the most basic laws of physics. They are not fully part of the universe, as they only participate in the degree they feel like, which is impossible by all standards. A human is not a god. But from a single celled organism's POV it could as well be because of all the wonderful things a human can do. But the human still operates within the laws of nature, and so does the energies knows as chaos. They are not gods. Merely guys with bigger "guns" and brains than us. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254381-are-they-really-gods/#findComment-3089770 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 "gods" are something that defies the most basic laws of physics. They are not fully part of the universe, as they only participate in the degree they feel like, which is impossible by all standards. A human is not a god. But from a single celled organism's POV it could as well be because of all the wonderful things a human can do. But the human still operates within the laws of nature, and so does the energies knows as chaos. They are not gods. Merely guys with bigger "guns" and brains than us. If I believe what you just said greek and roman gods are not gods. It is pretty hard to speak about perspective, as we don't know any being that is way above mankind to the degree we can't explain it. But I do fully suscribe to your definition. Roman gods have bigger guns and brains than mere humans (they can be killed, they can even be wounded by humans), but we tend to concider everything above us as a god, so the Chaos gods are... Well... Gods. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254381-are-they-really-gods/#findComment-3089777 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Look at our own culture and history. Several times mere Men have been mistaken for Gods because of the power they wield and the gifts they can bring. Europeans giving primitive tribes weapons made of a wonderous material that did not chip or shatter (Steel versus bone/stone), firesticks that could bring death rom afar (muskets). Any lifeform with technology and/or abilities beyond that which is not understood can be mistaken for a deity Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254381-are-they-really-gods/#findComment-3089837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Of course they're gods. They are supermortal beings that are the subjects of worship and/or sacrifice. Sounds like a god to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254381-are-they-really-gods/#findComment-3089840 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted June 20, 2012 Author Share Posted June 20, 2012 So then, is the Emperor a god? He isn't necessarily mortal, has more power than anything that has ever existed, and even the Chaos "Gods" fear him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254381-are-they-really-gods/#findComment-3089867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 So then, is the Emperor a god? He isn't necessarily mortal, has more power than anything that has ever existed, and even the Chaos "Gods" fear him. He is the God-Emperor for a reason. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254381-are-they-really-gods/#findComment-3089870 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted June 20, 2012 Author Share Posted June 20, 2012 So then, is the Emperor a god? He isn't necessarily mortal, has more power than anything that has ever existed, and even the Chaos "Gods" fear him. He is the God-Emperor for a reason. Because it is a title given to him. And that is what I am saying, are they "gods" just because the Imperium has labeled them such? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254381-are-they-really-gods/#findComment-3089876 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 He himself has saints and they have been known to "reincarnate" through his power. I'd say he qualifies as one, even weak as he is in his current state. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254381-are-they-really-gods/#findComment-3089888 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Have to agree with Tanith Ghost. The Emperor in his current state and the Chaos Gods qualify under any reasonably broad definition of god. The only way to cut them out is to define god in very narrow terms. "If it's not like this one deity from this one specific religious tradition, it's not a god." Not exactly a usable definition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254381-are-they-really-gods/#findComment-3089890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 So then, is the Emperor a god? He isn't necessarily mortal, has more power than anything that has ever existed, and even the Chaos "Gods" fear him. He is the God-Emperor for a reason. Because it is a title given to him. And that is what I am saying, are they "gods" just because the Imperium has labeled them such? Exactly. He denied that he was a god for a reason, that is, because he wasn't one. As for the Chaos Gods. Defy laws of phsycics? Check. Exist in a different dimension? Check. Can see and affect every other being in the galaxy? Check. Immensely powerful, capable of killing anything but another Warp deity singlehandedly? Check. I don't see why they wouldn't be. Now, back to the Emperor. He denied his suppossed god hood in one place, then set up the cult of the Omnissiah in a different place. Notice he spent most of his time with the people he didn't claim to be a god to. Next, he was mortally wounded by his own son. Whatever else is true about that situation - I've argued too much about it before as is - he was almost killed in the material world. Nothing like that has been done to the other gods, except when Slaanesh ate the Eldar gods. Finally, I think the fact that the Emperor exists in the mortal world and not the Warp evidence enough by itself. None of the gods, not Eldar, Chaos, or Ork, have ever done anything but exist in the Empyrean. If they somehow manifested in the material universe, they would still be insanely powerful daemons that constantly corrupt everything around them. The Emperor doesn't do that. He uses his psychic powers to devastating effects and wins wars by himself, yes. But roads don't magicly appear under his feet and his enemies don't warp into his servants while he's around them. There are real gods in the 40k universe. The Emperor is not one of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254381-are-they-really-gods/#findComment-3089898 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 It could be that the Emperor became a god after being put on the throne and his cult becoming a big deal. The other question is however if he became a god rather than starting out as a god... If thew warp entitiy actually him or something else? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254381-are-they-really-gods/#findComment-3089904 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Ah, but you're narrowing the definition of god, DAT. The Emperor may be a different kind of god from the other gods in 40K, but it doesn't mean he doesn't meet the definition in his own way. The old-school C'Tan would probably qualify in the same way. In any case, I certainly can't think of any examples in modern culture of a divine figure who had a physical form which was slain. No sir. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254381-are-they-really-gods/#findComment-3089934 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted June 20, 2012 Author Share Posted June 20, 2012 Ah, but you're narrowing the definition of god, DAT. The Emperor may be a different kind of god from the other gods in 40K, but it doesn't mean he doesn't meet the definition in his own way. The old-school C'Tan would probably qualify in the same way. In any case, I certainly can't think of any examples in modern culture of a divine figure who had a physical form which was slain. No sir. Well there are the classical gods who could die. +Edit+ And what I guess I should mean by gods are something to be worshiped. I mean, should they be considered gods rather than immensely powerful aliens like the Emperor wanted. Science man, science. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254381-are-they-really-gods/#findComment-3089976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 If you think of a "god" as an omniscient, all powerful being that has created all things, then the Chaos Gods would not be actual gods. But then neither would the northern or the greek gods be, as others have pointed out. Not all gods are said to be omniscient and all powerful. They can have their own "rules" and "natural laws" that they are subject to, though those rules and laws are often very different from our own worldly laws of nature. So, if you think of a "god" as an imensely powerful being from another plain, which is not subject to the common natural laws, and which can and does affect the lives of mortals with its powers and blessings, then yes, the Chaos Gods are actual gods. They are as much gods as the northern or greek gods are, or as the D&D gods are. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254381-are-they-really-gods/#findComment-3089982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Týr Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 A god is a deity that is based on natural philosophy. All the ancient and modern gods are based on this way of thinking. It is the same method that the ancient greeks used to explain that there is only four elements: fire, water, air and earth. The used the example that when wood burns you see the fire of course. You see the air leaving the wood as smoke. You see the water as resin. And you see the earth in the ashed left at the end. This way of thinking is a twisted logic steaming from the lack of an actual scientific method. It's through this way of thinking that gods are born. Here you place the Earth in the center of the solar system because it's most "logically" to do so. It wasn't until Isaac Newton and his work "Philosophiæ naturalis principia mathematica" that a proper scientific method was born. Here it was stated that the experiment was the scientific methods tough judge. Only by testing your theories, and making sure that it's predictions is in line with observations, can things be determined properly. All gods I know off are based on natural philosophy, and therfore defies many basic laws of nature. fx they participate only partially in the universe. The gods of the three great monotheistic religions of today is able to act freely in a universe, yet is not restricted by it's laws like everything else. Many gods defy the principle of energi/mass conservcation. Mass and energi cannot disappear or be created. Only transformed from one state to another. Yet gods are capable of creating things out of nothing that can last, and thereby breaking this most fundamental rule by introducing more energi and mass to a closed-system. That's why gods cannot exist. Anything that exist, and have (from our perspective) "godlike powers", are nothing more than guys with bigger guns, that we just need new science to describe. You are welcome to define a god, as an immenensily powerful being, and then go on to call the energies of the warp gods. But by this definition everything is a god relatively to something lesser, because it's a definition based on the concept of power. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254381-are-they-really-gods/#findComment-3090079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 You seems to be a bit out of the topic. I guess the OP was asking if the Chaos gods were gods just like other deities in human's history, I don't really think his question was about cosmogony, creationism and such. Ergo, yes, the Chaos gods are gods. About your reflexion, you can't prove by A+B that there's no god. Just like we can't prove that there's a god. We can fill the void by gambit, with Pascal's Wager, but there's no actual way to reach the truth, at this moment. That is why faith is an important part of any religion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254381-are-they-really-gods/#findComment-3090282 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Týr Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 You seems to be a bit out of the topic. I guess the OP was asking if the Chaos gods were gods just like other deities in human's history, I don't really think his question was about cosmogony, creationism and such. Ergo, yes, the Chaos gods are gods. About your reflexion, you can't prove by A+B that there's no god. Just like we can't prove that there's a god. We can fill the void by gambit, with Pascal's Wager, but there's no actual way to reach the truth, at this moment. That is why faith is an important part of any religion. I do not see it as off topic. Simply my reflection about the nature of gods throughout human history, which can be applied to the nature of chaos. it is just an attemp to dwelve a little deeper into how we percive gods. I was simply pointing out that if you define gods from concepts of power, then anything can be described as a god, as long as you compare it to something lesser. If you use the definition in natural philosophy where gods are things that defies the very laws of nature. Then the conclusion must be that such gods cannot exist. It is simply impossible for anything inside our universe to break such fundamental rules as gods would tend to do. You can define chaos as gods, based upon the definition about power, and then worship them all you want. But they are still bound by laws of physics and are therfore not gods in the old sense (natural philosophy). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254381-are-they-really-gods/#findComment-3090298 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.