Are they really gods?

[Vesper]

I was simply pointing out that if you define gods from concepts of power, then anything can be described as a god, as long as you compare it to something lesser.

In fact, as far as I know, only human beings have gods, so we can only assume that everything more powerful than a human is a god. Expending it to every living thing at any scale is a bit fallacious, at best. The notion of divinity makes sense only because of mankind.

 

If you use the definition in natural philosophy where gods are things that defies the very laws of nature. Then the conclusion must be that such gods cannot exist. It is simply impossible for anything inside our universe to break such fundamental rules as gods would tend to do.

Prove it (it will be hard, then, don't forget we still don't know everything about the laws of nature).

 

You can define chaos as gods, based upon the definition about power, and then worship them all you want. But they are still bound by laws of physics and are therfore not gods in the old sense (natural philosophy).

The Chaos gods break laws of physics at will. They can shape the warp, their powers can reach the material realm without any issue (supernatural gifts, appearances...). The warp has, most likely its own set of rules, but the gods seems to twist those rules.

[Legatus]

If you use the definition in natural philosophy where gods are things that defies the very laws of nature. Then the conclusion must be that such gods cannot exist.

Umh, yes, indeed. We are however, talking about a fantasy universe, such as D&D, etc. The notion that gods cannot possibly exist in any such fantasy universe is a bit peculiar.

 

 

It is simply impossible for anything inside our universe to break such fundamental rules as gods would tend to do.

 

You can define chaos as gods, based upon the definition about power, and then worship them all you want. But they are still bound by laws of physics and are therfore not gods in the old sense (natural philosophy).

It surely is an argument for the godhood of the Chaos Gods, then, that they exist outside of our physical universe, no? I mean, the entire concept of the warp dimension is set up so that it does not follow the same laws of time and space as our physical dimension.

[Billuriye]

Why did it come to atheism?

[Brother Ambroz]

How in the world are the chaos gods bound by the laws of physics? The warp pretty much defined as defying the laws of physics. I'm sorry but this argument doesn't make sense to me.

[Legatus]

Why did it come to atheism?

A bit off topic, and broad, but ok. As man learned more and more about the natural processes, it turned out that there were perfectly natural explanations for most things that had previously been ascribed to a mysterious hand of god. Thus it occurred to a lot of people that the existance of a creator god was not the most rational assumption.

[Billuriye]

A bit off topic, and broad, but ok. As man learned more and more about the natural processes, it turned out that there were perfectly natural explanations for most things that had previously been ascribed to a mysterious hand of god. Thus it occurred to a lot of people that the existance of a creator god was not the most rational assumption.

 

Warp powers obviously don't care about rationality. Neither the universe we live in i guess. Since the concept of universe itself is logically impossible. You gotta take it as it is.

[Týr]

I was simply pointing out that if you define gods from concepts of power, then anything can be described as a god, as long as you compare it to something lesser.

In fact, as far as I know, only human beings have gods, so we can only assume that everything more powerful than a human is a god. Expending it to every living thing at any scale is a bit fallacious, at best. The notion of divinity makes sense only because of mankind.

 

 

If you use the definition in natural philosophy where gods are things that defies the very laws of nature. Then the conclusion must be that such gods cannot exist. It is simply impossible for anything inside our universe to break such fundamental rules as gods would tend to do.

Prove it (it will be hard, then, don't forget we still don't know everything about the laws of nature).

 

 

You can define chaos as gods, based upon the definition about power, and then worship them all you want. But they are still bound by laws of physics and are therfore not gods in the old sense (natural philosophy).

The Chaos gods break laws of physics at will. They can shape the warp, their powers can reach the material realm without any issue (supernatural gifts, appearances...). The warp has, most likely its own set of rules, but the gods seems to twist those rules.

 

The energy conservation law roughly states: "Energy cannot appear or disappear, but will always be a result of added work. If you considers a closed system, then the total energy is constant"

This is also knows as the first law of thermodynamics. It is a law that cannot be proven but still applies to all known and unknown experiments.

A classical descriptionof the univers' creation is, that it happend at the hand of a god and before there were nothing. For this to be possible you have to break with the first law of thermodynamics and create energy from nothing in a closed system. And it cannot be done. It's impossible to add or remove energy from the universe, so the old ideá that a god created the universe cannot be.

With that said there can still be powerful beings able to manipulate with the universe. Say planets, galaxies and so on, as long they stay within the laws of physics. But they are not gods. Only very powerful beings.

 

The Chaos does not break the laws of physics. There are science and maths to describe say a warprift releasing demons on the world. Most likely it is a combination og warp physics and our physics. Otherwise a warprift is not possible. When the immaterium dimension invades our universe, it has to obey our rules otherwise it cannot exist in our universe. And likewise, when a starship travels through warpspace, it uses gellar fields that must be a fusion of physics from out universe and the immaterium.

 

If you use the definition in natural philosophy where gods are things that defies the very laws of nature. Then the conclusion must be that such gods cannot exist.

Umh, yes, indeed. We are however, talking about a fantasy universe, such as D&D, etc. The notion that gods cannot possibly exist in any such fantasy universe is a bit peculiar.

 

 

It is simply impossible for anything inside our universe to break such fundamental rules as gods would tend to do.

 

You can define chaos as gods, based upon the definition about power, and then worship them all you want. But they are still bound by laws of physics and are therfore not gods in the old sense (natural philosophy).

It surely is an argument for the godhood of the Chaos Gods, then, that they exist outside of our physical universe, no? I mean, the entire concept of the warp dimension is set up so that it does not follow the same laws of time and space as our physical dimension.

 

Warhammer 40k is not fantasy. It's a sci-fi setting. Gods is not a matter of course in a sci-fi setting.

 

 

The ideá of the warp is simply a version of the multiverse theory. In this theory there are all sorts of universes with it's own laws of physics. If on of these parallel universes contains sentient life, it is not an argument for that sentient life's godhood simply because it exist.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Ah, but you're narrowing the definition of god, DAT. The Emperor may be a different kind of god from the other gods in 40K, but it doesn't mean he doesn't meet the definition in his own way. The old-school C'Tan would probably qualify in the same way.

 

In any case, I certainly can't think of any examples in modern culture of a divine figure who had a physical form which was slain. No sir.

I am defining it based on the existing laws of 40k fluff. The only gods there are are the Warp deities. All the others were made that way by delusional followers, including the C'tan and the Emperor.

 

And you should know real world =/= 40k world :)

[Ubermensch Commander]

The Chaos powers are malicious gestalt psychic entities. Their "godhood" depends on what one's definition of a god is. Same the C'tan, the Eldar entities, etc. There seem to be many "gods" in the 40K universe and not all of them share the same qualities. In fact, the only unifying factor seems to be massive amounts of power.

I roll with the Emperor's view. Simply because it is more powerful than you, does not make it a god....just more powerful.

Veneration is not a good qualifier for godhood. Many many things may be worshiped, such as Titans, yet I am not sure that means they are gods.

[Billuriye]

The Chaos does not break the laws of physics. There are science and maths to describe say a warprift releasing demons on the world. Most likely it is a combination og warp physics and our physics. Otherwise a warprift is not possible. When the immaterium dimension invades our universe, it has to obey our rules otherwise it cannot exist in our universe. And likewise, when a starship travels through warpspace, it uses gellar fields that must be a fusion of physics from out universe and the immaterium.

 

Warhammer 40k is not fantasy. It's a sci-fi setting. Gods is not a matter of course in a sci-fi setting.

 

Well if Warp has a science to it, not even the Emperor or Old Ones could figure it out. So you might as well say there is no science to it.

And sorry to inform but W40k is a sci fi/fantasy. Souls, incomprehensible powers, reality bendings and breakings and all.

[Legatus]

The Chaos does not break the laws of physics. There are science and maths to describe say a warprift releasing demons on the world. Most likely it is a combination og warp physics and our physics. Otherwise a warprift is not possible. When the immaterium dimension invades our universe, it has to obey our rules otherwise it cannot exist in our universe. And likewise, when a starship travels through warpspace, it uses gellar fields that must be a fusion of physics from out universe and the immaterium.

The reason why no science was ever associated with any gods of ourt mythology is because, well, they do not exist. In fantasy setting, however, they positively do exist, and interactions of deities with the "real world" in such a fantasy universe ar eoften somewhat "common". In such a universe, the laws of the deities can be closer examined, and there will be a sort of "science" behind it. I am not that familiar with the D&D universe, but IIRC there is some sort of "planar" theory, where powerfull beings, even those born in the real world, can enter the plane of the deities. The D&D deities themselves can manifest their powers in different ways, usually in support of a divine character.

But whereas the D&D "divine science" is written about and examined by Wizards, the immaterial dimension in a sci-fi setting such as Warhammer 40K is examined much more thoroughly and analytically. There will be "maths", and a unique science developed around the immaterial dimension, and it might even be understood well enough to be influenced by powerful machines, such as warp drives.

 

In reality, gods do not exist, or at least can in no way be detected or measured. In a fantasy setting, they can. They are usually very active, and there are certain rules associated to them. But that is not that different to our own god concepts, since the greek and northern gods also had their own rules and divine laws.

 

The definition of a god cannot be that they are undetectable and follow no kinds of rules. That definition would be just like saying "a God is something that cannot exist, so by definition, it could not exist". But such a definition would not fit the majority of the gods of our own mythology, and not a single one of any fantasy setting. A more suiteable definition would be that a god is something that exists outrside of our material universe and/or is not bound by the usual laws of nature, but that still has the capability to influence the material universe or its denizens in some way. This definition would include the gods of our mythology, and would also include the Chaos Gods, but would not just include any powerful being such as a Tyranid Dominatrix.

[Lord_Caerolion]

In fact, the Warp is repeatedly stated to follow no rules of physics whatsoever, with effect creating cause, time doing whatever it wants, and just general insanity. To paraphrase an awesome summary of the Warp I saw on a forum once "The Warp is the place where North is East, East is a week from last Tuesday, West is a yorkshire terrier named Bobby, and South... you don't want to know about South..."

 

I know there's rules of physics for our world, but the explicit point of the Warp is that it not only doesn't follow those, but it inherently damages them. There is no possible equation that can summarise a Warp-rift, or for how a daemon affects the Materium, or anything else, because the Warp is anathema to such things. How can you write an equation for something that is utterly different to the view of every viewer? It just doesn't work that way.

[Brother Ambroz]

You really can't honestly argue there are laws which apply to the warp, I mean really?

 

They may be venerated or outright worshipped just like titans but do the titans gain power from that worship/veneration? I think that's the difference.

[Týr]

In fact, the Warp is repeatedly stated to follow no rules of physics whatsoever, with effect creating cause, time doing whatever it wants, and just general insanity. To paraphrase an awesome summary of the Warp I saw on a forum once "The Warp is the place where North is East, East is a week from last Tuesday, West is a yorkshire terrier named Bobby, and South... you don't want to know about South..."

 

I know there's rules of physics for our world, but the explicit point of the Warp is that it not only doesn't follow those, but it inherently damages them. There is no possible equation that can summarise a Warp-rift, or for how a daemon affects the Materium, or anything else, because the Warp is anathema to such things. How can you write an equation for something that is utterly different to the view of every viewer? It just doesn't work that way.

 

 

If it is as you states, and there are no rules or laws whatsoever, then that in itself is a law. And by being a law it breaks itself, thereby creating an infinite number of states for the immaterium. It's almost a quantum state where it's in perfect order, complete chaos or anything in between. This "law of no laws" can be the key to unlucking hidden variables, thus allowing equations to describe such a "quantum state" for the immaterium.

[Arkangilos]

You really can't honestly argue there are laws which apply to the warp, I mean really?

 

They may be venerated or outright worshipped just like titans but do the titans gain power from that worship/veneration? I think that's the difference.

 

They don't gain power from worship, they gain power from emotion. And how do you make people more emotional? Well, to go with what works, start a religion full of fanatics. People are far more emotional about their beliefs than they are about most other things, and THAT is what makes them thrive.

 

 

Also, just because the laws of OUR universe does not apply to the warp does NOT mean that the warp itself does not have laws. It is just that their laws are NOT the same as ours.

And you really can't say, "The Emperor has not figured out what the laws of the warp are, therefore it has no laws" as an argument, because we haven't even found all of our own laws out yet. If we haven't figured ours out, how can we figure that out of another dimension?

 

 

And from what I have seen of this, it does seem like people are just calling them gods because they are vastly superior, and rather than call them more powerful aliens that we can't comprehend (as the Emperor did), we add superstition onto them to justify their power.

[Legatus]

There are certain rules and laws within the warp. But being subject to rules and laws does not preclude something from being a god. Case in point: Thor.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

They don't gain power from worship, they gain power from emotion.

 

Right and wrong, surely?

 

A Champion of Khorne uses his emotions during combat, and the combat itsself, as his worship and devotion to Khorne.

 

If Khorne was the God of Gospel, Khârn would just be singing rather than cleaving people in twain.

[Arkangilos]

They don't gain power from worship, they gain power from emotion.

 

Right and wrong, surely?

 

A Champion of Khorne uses his emotions during combat, and the combat itsself, as his worship and devotion to Khorne.

 

If Khorne was the God of Gospel, Khârn would just be singing rather than cleaving people in twain.

 

Right, but it is the action, not the prayer.

 

So like, if a whole bunch of people worshiped Khorne, but only three of them actively killed people, Khorne would only get power from the three that killed people, not from the three hundred that prayed to him. And that is why he rewards those that kill as opposed to those that pray.

 

 

And he gets power from every murder, even those not done in his name, doesn't he? Every war, every battle fuels him. But he gets more blood, more death, and more war from worshipers than he does from non-believers. That is because believers are more emotionally tied to it.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Right, but it is the action, not the prayer.

 

The action is the prayer; it's a misnomer that prayer must be of the vocal variety.

[Brother Ambroz]

They don't gain power from worship, they gain power from emotion. And how do you make people more emotional? Well, to go with what works, start a religion full of fanatics. People are far more emotional about their beliefs than they are about most other things, and THAT is what makes them thrive.

 

 

Also, just because the laws of OUR universe does not apply to the warp does NOT mean that the warp itself does not have laws. It is just that their laws are NOT the same as ours.

And you really can't say, "The Emperor has not figured out what the laws of the warp are, therefore it has no laws" as an argument, because we haven't even found all of our own laws out yet. If we haven't figured ours out, how can we figure that out of another dimension?

 

 

And from what I have seen of this, it does seem like people are just calling them gods because they are vastly superior, and rather than call them more powerful aliens that we can't comprehend (as the Emperor did), we add superstition onto them to justify their power.

 

Most followers of chaos are fanatics though are they not?

 

The warp is in a constant state of chaos, everything is constantly changing to the will of the four powers. I'm not arguing about the Emperor. What kind of laws would govern the warp? It's constantly changing but that in itself is not a law.

 

There is superstition to them though. They're vastly powerful entities that can create or destroy things on a whim.

[The Broker]

It doesn't matter whether they're gods or not, they're still parasites.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

It doesn't matter whether they're gods or not...

 

If the question is "Are they really gods?" it kinda does matter, y'know? ;)

[Xin Ceithan]

Must not get on my personal hobby horse now^^

 

Trouble of this post is that we seem to have no unifiying definition for what qualifies as a "god". Especially one that stands up against the already mostly "space opera" style of 40 Ks grip on physics and metaphysics, Which will probably lead us back to the "it`s all about sematics".

Are the Chaos Powers immensly powerful. Quite so. Do they have limits. Likewise. Can a human /posthuman really understand what drives these beings ? Probably not,

Humanity has a long history of perceiving any "more powerfulforce" as divine. Heck, in our own world humans make up gods all the time. And stick to them eben in the case where you actually can diprove any "divine" force at work. It helps them make sense out of a very chaotic universe. (Read up on Cargo Cults if you haven`t already).

Anyway, from the "common" perspective of a 40 K human the Chaos powers are truly gods. How else could you explain their power? In another age , for more reasonable beings ( like the Emperor may be?) they are still powerful but not divine. Merely very alien ( as in extradimensional). Are Lovecraft`s great Old Ones Gods ? Or really alien immensly powerful beings? It depends on the perspective. On the semantics. On the WORDS.

 

 

Oh and from my chaos whorshipping perspective here. you will all burn and bow before the eightfold way anyway. Muhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

[Vesper]

It doesn't matter whether they're gods or not, they're still parasites.

 

Hardly. They are the extention of the sentient life in universe, the natural evolution of mankind, what humanity poured in the immaterium. Malice is the parasite.

[War Angel]

i dont think their gods, i just think they are the top dog's of the daemons. if you think about how you can create something in the warp though simply having a strong enough will, and belife that what you want to exist will exist, then you get youre awesome fireball to smack people in the face with. thats kind of how slanessh was born, though enough people with strong enough will power, having their collective thoughts of (whatever my mind is forgetting slanessh is the god of). though they are just really powerful daemons, they do fall into the catergory of "so much stronger then other things of my kind, that im a god"

 

on the otherhand, the way the Emperor was born was born probably doesnt constitute him as a god either. which is sad because i was hoping that by the time i got to this part i would have had some awesome revelation as to how he is the only true god, and just didnt want people to call him a god because people can mistake what makes a god. but alas, i didnt.