Are they really gods?

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

i dont think their gods, i just think they are the top dog's of the daemons.

Yes, and no. Warning, this next bit is pure hypothesis but I think makes the most sense. There are three classes of Warp beings - the deities, the sub-deities, and the daemon princes. The deities are Khorne, Gork and Mork, Khaine and the like. The sub-deities are pretty much everything else - the biggest difference is they are actually part of the deities, given seperate intelligence but able to be reabsorbed at any point. Daemon Princes are completely seperate entities, on the other hand, are completely free to choose their own courses of action, and if they are bound to their patron god it isn't in the same way other daemons are.

 

This is just how I classify daemons Warp beings btw, take it or leave it. Hope it helps you :)

[Paradill]

As a long time hobbyist I can confirm that the GODS of Chaos are in fact GODS. I know this because there is a company called Games Workshop that have told me they are gods since I was a boy, and as the creators of said universe, I believe them.

 

On a slightly more patient and indulgent note, I think that there are arguments for both sides. They were created by the emotive reflections of mortals in the warp, they gain power by absorbing souls and emotions and through the actions of their followers. These are very Sci-fi multi-dimensional alien things to me.

 

On the other hand they are capable of reaching out and shaping the real universe to their desires, tearing it apart, absorbing it into the warp, creating overlaps etc. They have their own followers created at, or sometimes without even needing, a thought and they have a vested interest in the beliefs of mortals. These are all very god like things to me.

 

My own opinion is that it doesn't matter whether they are Gods in any measurable sense, you are either with them or against them, there is no other consideration. After all "Blood for the blood god! Skulls for the skull throne! Is hardly an invitation to debate upon the physical nature or lack thereof of a deity, or an argument over what constitutes a being worthy of being called God. In fact, by the time you had managed to form the previous sentence into cohesion, your neck would be spread over an area of about four square meters and your cold, dead eyes would be staring into the distance. At the ragged lumps of flesh that used to constitute your abdomen.

 

Paradill

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Hmmmm. The 4-Powers are manifestations of thoughts, ideas, emotions, dreams, wishes, nightmares. They have existed since the beginning although their power is a direct reflection or ripple of the... psychic 'radiance' or consciousness of living beings and their minds/emotions affecting and shaping the warp. Now true 'living' psychic creatures 'live'/exist in the warp but daemons and the 4-Powers are none of these things. They are the stuff of nightmares shaped into reality on the etheric palette.

 

So what is the warp? It is a psychic dimension that seems to contain the psychic essence that almost all living creatures seem to be given upon their manifestation as a living being in the material realm. Every being leaves an imprint so to speak, kind of like the intro to Little Big Planet but GrimDark. The WHFRP/RT fluff mentions the 4-Powers not being the only powers on the block; there are many lesser powers but in the Grim Darkness of the Future there is War and war brings pestilence, blood, volatility and wanton behavior. So how do the 4-Powers gain power in a place of seemingly limitless potential energy? From us of course!

 

Some of the old fluff mentions the 4-Powers growing exponentially stronger as populations grew and more Chaos (I said it!) manifested itself in the universe. Are they Gods? Hmmm. To quote President Clinton: "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is." They are immensely powerful manifestations in a place of unlimited potential energy and are attuned to gaining power from acts committed in their portfolio ie; war/murder/blood=Khorne power. Whoever brought up the DnD pantheons was very apt; the Warp Manifestations of Chaos are gods in that sense. All-powerful in their realm/domain and in regards over their portfolio until someone comes and takes it away or their power wanes to a point where they... 'die'. The 4-Powers and the lesser powers seem to gain power from actions (or thoughts/dreams yadda yadda) taken in the material realm which fall under their portfolio: Super huge plague, Nurgle loves it. Black Templar Crusade, Khorne stoked. The 4-Powers also gain power from actions that are taken in their name; belief is powerful in itself and when you are manifest in a place where thought can be given form and shape, it is nice to have 3 bajillion mortal heretics screaming "KHORNE! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!" so loud that the warp is rippling doesnt hurt your power levels either.

 

Are they Gods? No. I do not think they are Gods but avatars of a greater power of Chaos. The Primordial Truth. The Primordial Annihilator. The 4-Powers are just manifestations of the emotions, fears and pettiness of mortal beings. The 4-Powers squabble and undermine each other, jockey for dominance, and send their pawns and daemonspawn (DPs, Greaters, thralls, Spawn, whatever) to do their bidding. Reality is (har har) Chaos is the truth. Chaos just is. Chaos isnt fallible or infallible because Chaos has no goals, no ambitions or stakes in any game. Chaos is a law because in any system, any truth, any scenario, any rule that there is always an error factor. Something that slips beyond the 'control'. The 4-Powers are just slaves to this in my opinion, the real Shadow in the Warp. The things that populate the warp as daemons are just psychic miasma which living creatures have given power to through their own actions or thoughts; kind of like Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man in the first Ghostbuster movie. Thought given form! That is the 4-Powers. Chaos? That could be a god but not in the modern or classical sense. A god in like the permanent, oh wow this phenomenon seems to happen all the time kind of way. Ramble off.

[Arkangilos]

Interesting, Chaplain Chonke.

 

People keep saying that they can shape the mortal universe at will, but that is actually proven false. They have to have some species in this universe weaken this universe so that the chaos powers can breach into it. That isn't really "at will."

 

As to the laws of the warp: there is at least one that is known: Without some sort of action done in our universe, the warp cannot bleed into it. Therefore, a law of the warp is that it is confined to its own dimension unless DRAWN through. It cannot enter at will.

(there are, of course, anomalies).

 

And like I said, the Warp has its laws, we just might not understand them because they do not coincide with our laws.

 

 

To the Games Workshop telling us they are gods: they are telling us from the 40k perspective. However, in the very first Horus Heresy book, it was also said (by Horus, who was told by the Emperor), that they are just Aliens.

 

Now, if you want to say that aliens can be classified as gods, then clearly they would be because of their power, where they live, and stuff like that. But then would that mean that that the Emperor was right, that there are no "true" gods?

 

And, since all of these were created as a result of the Old Ones during the fight against the C'tan (like the Eldar Gods and stuff like that), would that mean that the Old Ones were gods as well? Or did they just have the power to create gods?

[Legatus]

People keep saying that they can shape the mortal universe at will, but that is actually proven false. They have to have some species in this universe weaken this universe so that the chaos powers can breach into it. That isn't really "at will."

They don't have to be able to affect the material realm "at will". Many gods of our own mythology cannot do so, and can only influence certain aspects of their followers' every day life. Much like Thor (or actually rather Tyr) or Ares would grant their followers strength in battle, so does Khorne. But they would not grant the farmers a rich yield.

 

And I can only repeat: Many, many many many, of the gods of our mythology are subject to rules and laws. Only very few of the historically known gods are said to be completely all-powerful. Being subject to their own set of laws and "natural" rules does not mean they are no gods.

 

Or maybe the greek and the norse gods too were just very powerful aliens?

 

 

And, since all of these were created as a result of the Old Ones during the fight against the C'tan (like the Eldar Gods and stuff like that), would that mean that the Old Ones were gods as well? Or did they just have the power to create gods?

As far as I remember the Old Ones did not actually create the warp, they merely were the first to connect the material realm to it, allowing the two dimensions to overlap and for things to cross from one dimension to the other. But I could be wrong. I never cared much about the Necron background.

[Arkangilos]

And, since all of these were created as a result of the Old Ones during the fight against the C'tan (like the Eldar Gods and stuff like that), would that mean that the Old Ones were gods as well? Or did they just have the power to create gods?

As far as I remember the Old Ones did not actually create the warp, they merely were the first to connect the material realm to it, allowing the two dimensions to overlap and for things to cross from one dimension to the other. But I could be wrong. I never cared much about the Necron background.

 

Well, they didn't create the warp, you are right about the overlap and things, but they did create the Eldar and the Eldar Gods, and I believe the beginnings of the other gods (or at least, facilitated their creation).

 

They also created the Orks.

[Legatus]

I don't think "creating something" is a useful criterion for godhood. Especially when that something is created entirely via naturalistic/scientific means. The most important criterion, to me, would bo the existance outside of the material universe. Or at least in part. The greek and norse gods lived in their own realm, and that realm was described very naturalistic. But it was still distinct from the world of the mortals. The next important criterion would be an ability to influence the material world, or maybe only the minds of its sentient beings. But I guess I could imagine a "god" who was not at all interested in the matters of the material world.

[Mantras]

Gods are craeated and raised up solely by thier followers. In 40K, the Emperor is a God to those who want to believe it, as are the Chaos Gods, the Eldar gods. Heck, even the C'tan are/were worshipped as Gods by the Necrontyr at one stage (unless that has been retconned). Gork and Mork the same.

 

If you want to argue that the Chaos gods are only strong because they are worshipped, I get that, but surely the Emperor is worshipped by billions more than they are, same as Gork and Mork really.

[Lord_Caerolion]

It's because the Chaos Gods aren't strengthened purely by actual worship, but by the emotions that comprise them. Khorne is strengthened every time someone feels rage, Slaanesh every time someone enjoys something, Nurgle for the desire for despair/stagnation, Tzeentch for hope/change. The God-Emperor would also be fueled by emotions (most likely discipline/desire for order), but his core emotions are far less "primal" than for the Chaos Gods, so he doesn't get as much power from that particular method.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Interesting, Chaplain Chonke.

 

People keep saying that they can shape the mortal universe at will, but that is actually proven false. They have to have some species in this universe weaken this universe so that the chaos powers can breach into it. That isn't really "at will."

What about the countless champions of Chaos who haven't done anything to breach the layer but because they worship the Chaos Gods they gain mutations and abilities? What about those artifacts who are infected with Warp energy but are sealed away by the Eldar because they're so dangerous? Or even the entire daemons who have had the same treatment? They aren't magicaly deactivated or destroyed; they remain in 'normal universe' until someone comes along and frees them. That's probably not going to happen without the intervention of the Chaos Gods, maybe not directly but they might corrupt someone who will free the trapped power.

 

The Chaos Gods can breach the universe at will. Their daemons have to wait for a weak spot, but the Dark Gods can pretty much do what they want. They're just that insanely powerful. Look at Slaanesh. Just being born created the Eye of Terror. I'd consider that pretty much 'at will' ;)

[Arkangilos]

Interesting, Chaplain Chonke.

 

People keep saying that they can shape the mortal universe at will, but that is actually proven false. They have to have some species in this universe weaken this universe so that the chaos powers can breach into it. That isn't really "at will."

What about the countless champions of Chaos who haven't done anything to breach the layer but because they worship the Chaos Gods they gain mutations and abilities? What about those artifacts who are infected with Warp energy but are sealed away by the Eldar because they're so dangerous? Or even the entire daemons who have had the same treatment? They aren't magicaly deactivated or destroyed; they remain in 'normal universe' until someone comes along and frees them. That's probably not going to happen without the intervention of the Chaos Gods, maybe not directly but they might corrupt someone who will free the trapped power.

 

The Chaos Gods can breach the universe at will. Their daemons have to wait for a weak spot, but the Dark Gods can pretty much do what they want. They're just that insanely powerful. Look at Slaanesh. Just being born created the Eye of Terror. I'd consider that pretty much 'at will' :(

 

The Black Crusade rpg explains that mutations aren't instantaneous and only come around through prayer, ritual, and stuff like that. Usually this happens where the wall is weak (as per ritual or location), and requires meditation.

 

The Chaos Artifacts were imbued with power under similar circumstances. It did not "just happen." There was a long ritual that it involved. (And in the Black Crusade game, could potentially take years).

 

Usually the ones that stay trapped in our universe have something to feed them. Either a weak wall, or cultists who make sacrifices to keep them running. For example, in Blood Quest, there was a daemon they came across on a watch world (the world was set up to make sure that the daemon stayed imprisoned) which had corrupted its guards. So they had done stuff to keep it alive.

[Brother Ambroz]

Now we're just arguing the definition of a "god". All semantics....

[Pulse]

Hmmmm. The 4-Powers are manifestations of thoughts, ideas, emotions, dreams, wishes, nightmares. They have existed since the beginning although their power is a direct reflection or ripple of the... psychic 'radiance' or consciousness of living beings and their minds/emotions affecting and shaping the warp. Now true 'living' psychic creatures 'live'/exist in the warp but daemons and the 4-Powers are none of these things. They are the stuff of nightmares shaped into reality on the etheric palette.

 

So what is the warp? It is a psychic dimension that seems to contain the psychic essence that almost all living creatures seem to be given upon their manifestation as a living being in the material realm. Every being leaves an imprint so to speak, kind of like the intro to Little Big Planet but GrimDark. The WHFRP/RT fluff mentions the 4-Powers not being the only powers on the block; there are many lesser powers but in the Grim Darkness of the Future there is War and war brings pestilence, blood, volatility and wanton behavior. So how do the 4-Powers gain power in a place of seemingly limitless potential energy? From us of course!

 

Some of the old fluff mentions the 4-Powers growing exponentially stronger as populations grew and more Chaos (I said it!) manifested itself in the universe. Are they Gods? Hmmm. To quote President Clinton: "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is." They are immensely powerful manifestations in a place of unlimited potential energy and are attuned to gaining power from acts committed in their portfolio ie; war/murder/blood=Khorne power. Whoever brought up the DnD pantheons was very apt; the Warp Manifestations of Chaos are gods in that sense. All-powerful in their realm/domain and in regards over their portfolio until someone comes and takes it away or their power wanes to a point where they... 'die'. The 4-Powers and the lesser powers seem to gain power from actions (or thoughts/dreams yadda yadda) taken in the material realm which fall under their portfolio: Super huge plague, Nurgle loves it. Black Templar Crusade, Khorne stoked. The 4-Powers also gain power from actions that are taken in their name; belief is powerful in itself and when you are manifest in a place where thought can be given form and shape, it is nice to have 3 bajillion mortal heretics screaming "KHORNE! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!" so loud that the warp is rippling doesnt hurt your power levels either.

 

Are they Gods? No. I do not think they are Gods but avatars of a greater power of Chaos. The Primordial Truth. The Primordial Annihilator. The 4-Powers are just manifestations of the emotions, fears and pettiness of mortal beings. The 4-Powers squabble and undermine each other, jockey for dominance, and send their pawns and daemonspawn (DPs, Greaters, thralls, Spawn, whatever) to do their bidding. Reality is (har har) Chaos is the truth. Chaos just is. Chaos isnt fallible or infallible because Chaos has no goals, no ambitions or stakes in any game. Chaos is a law because in any system, any truth, any scenario, any rule that there is always an error factor. Something that slips beyond the 'control'. The 4-Powers are just slaves to this in my opinion, the real Shadow in the Warp. The things that populate the warp as daemons are just psychic miasma which living creatures have given power to through their own actions or thoughts; kind of like Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man in the first Ghostbuster movie. Thought given form! That is the 4-Powers. Chaos? That could be a god but not in the modern or classical sense. A god in like the permanent, oh wow this phenomenon seems to happen all the time kind of way. Ramble off.

Awesome, just awesome!

[Legatus]

The 4-Powers are manifestations of thoughts, ideas, emotions, dreams, wishes, nightmares. They have existed since the beginning

Or rather since about 50,000 years ago. In "the begining", the warp was calm and harmoneous. With the advent of humanity, over tie their strong emotions stirred the warp.

 

 

Are they Gods? No. I do not think they are Gods but avatars of a greater power of Chaos. The Primordial Truth. The Primordial Annihilator. The 4-Powers are just manifestations of the emotions, fears and pettiness of mortal beings. The 4-Powers squabble and undermine each other, jockey for dominance, and send their pawns and daemonspawn (DPs, Greaters, thralls, Spawn, whatever) to do their bidding. Reality is (har har) Chaos is the truth. Chaos just is. Chaos isnt fallible or infallible because Chaos has no goals, no ambitions or stakes in any game.

The major Chaos Gods are sentient and do have their own goals and agendas. "Chaos" is sort of the stuff they are made of, like "matter" in our own reality. But Khorne and Tzeentch are nit just "Chaos". Khorne is Khorne, and has its own agenda for its mortal followers.

[Brother Ambroz]

As for the warp having laws, Page number 72 of the Iron Warriors omnibus says this: "Forrix knew for a fact that their manufacture had only been possible within the Eye of Terror, that region of space where the warp spewed into realspace and all laws of reality ceased to have meaning." How much clearer could it be?

 

Edit: spelling.

[Arkangilos]

As for the warp having laws, Page number 72 of the Iron Warriors omnibus says this: "Forrix knew for a fact that their manufacture had only been possible within the Eye of Terror, that region of space where the warp spewed into realspace and all laws of reality ceased to have meaning." How much clearer could it be?

 

Edit: spelling.

 

And that is for OUR universe. Like I said, it's laws don't tie in with ours. OUR REALITY means NOTHING in the warp, but that does NOT mean that the warp does not have laws.

[Týr]

As for the warp having laws, Page number 72 of the Iron Warriors omnibus says this: "Forrix knew for a fact that their manufacture had only been possible within the Eye of Terror, that region of space where the warp spewed into realspace and all laws of reality ceased to have meaning." How much clearer could it be?

 

Edit: spelling.

 

 

I belive you interpret the quote too much to support your own point. It only states that: "Laws of reality ceased to have meaning". But this will be the case for any parallel universe to ours. Just as all others universes' laws would cease to have meaning in our universe. The immaterium can have laws, but the laws found in our universe just dosen't make sense in the immaterium.

 

If there are no laws in the immaterium, then things such as warp jumps cannot exist. You have to do a calculation about entering, travelling and exiting the immaterium.

Possibly it can only be achived if you consider the entire immaterium to be in a quantum state between total order and total chaos. The trick would be to access certain hidden variables (as proposed by Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen), thereby making the random mesurement of quantumsystems predictable. And by doing so we can choose a state of the immaterium, that allows you to go from A to B through it. And this could explain warp lanes used by a lot of starships. These areas have a greater probability to be in a state that would allow travel.

[Legatus]

Can I just repeat that the question whether the warp has its own laws or not is entirely irrelevant to the question of whether not the four major Chaos Powers are gods or not?

[Arkangilos]

Can I just repeat that the question whether the warp has its own laws or not is entirely irrelevant to the question of whether not the four major Chaos Powers are gods or not?

 

Actually, one argument did use the warp not following the laws of physics. It's from that trope site. So, the warp actually is valid to this.

 

 

Also, would the enslavers be gods? Or any of the other warp entities that are not daemons?

[Legatus]

Actually, one argument did use the warp not following the laws of physics.

Well, it doesn't. And that is an argument for the godhood of the four Chaos powers, since they are not subject to the natural laws of our material reality. But the warp may or may not have "natural" laws of its own. But having their own laws that apply to them is not an argument against godhood.

 

In the warp, there are no concepts of 'space' or 'time' as in our reality. So there is no gravity either, nor any of the strong or weak electrical forces. The "creatures" in the warp are not made of matter, and do not age, since for one thing there is no flow of time and they are not made of cells that are decaying.

 

But the warp has other attributes, such as potency of a soul or a thought, the "direction" or strength of a warp current. There are "creatures". Smaller ones with merely instinctive behaviour, or mighty consciousnesses that can formulate independent thought.

 

 

Also, would the enslavers be gods? Or any of the other warp entities that are not daemons?

The powers of the enslavers are very limited, compared to the powers of the four major Chaos Powers. The enslavers can only affect local areas (crossing between the dimensions and mind controling local psykers to create more powerful warp portals), as far as I remember, whereas Khorne could speak to mortal beings in all corners of the Galaxy. Such warp creatures are more like daemons or angels.

[Brother Ambroz]

Seems like grasping at straws now for the laws of the warp argument.

 

For the enslavers, I don't really know enough about them to have an opinion. Is there any literature to read up on them more?

[Legatus]

For the enslavers, I don't really know enough about them to have an opinion. Is there any literature to read up on them more?

The WH40K 1st Edition Rulebook (Rogue Trader) mainly. Checking up on it, it seems that Enslavers are from our own reality and merely have the ability to travel through warp portals. They do not originate from the warp.

[Arkangilos]

For the enslavers, I don't really know enough about them to have an opinion. Is there any literature to read up on them more?

The WH40K 1st Edition Rulebook (Rogue Trader) mainly. Checking up on it, it seems that Enslavers are from our own reality and merely have the ability to travel through warp portals. They do not originate from the warp.

 

They are also mentioned in the Necron Codex as part of the Enslaver Plague that finished off the old ones. And from there they came from the warp.

[Brother Ambroz]

Is that in the old or new one Telanicus?

[Arkangilos]

Is that in the old or new one Telanicus?

 

Ah yes, that was the third edition (I don't remember if the latest one has it or not). However, the latest Eldar codex also has it :pinch: