Potential Allies

[Daybreak]

I don't see allies being allowed in any serious tournament.. and in my normal games, I will not allow them unless I know my opponent to be fair and fluffy. Srsly...

 

Whoa, fun police here.

 

I'm seriously so excited about the possibility of allies, as it opens up so many options both strategically and aesthetically. I've already started building traitor guard (it'll come out as a CSM list with IG allies), and I like the idea of another marine list adding an Inquisitor, a warband, and some Grey Knights. Then there's some double-angel lists: Blood Angels with Dark Angel allies, either Belial and TH/SS Termie troops (riding in a BA Storm Raven!) supported by a Priest/Librarian/Chaplain, or BA ASM teamed up with Sammael and some Ravenwing Bikers (hey look, locator beacons and Descent of Angels!). I'm also thinking about buying some Eldar to work into my Dark Eldar force, but I don't know anything at all about them 'cept for the fact that they have Psykers.

 

I'm not so bothered by fluff violations as many people are here. I doubt I'd ever team up Necrons and Black Templars, but that's only because (1) I don't see the armies working together, and (2) I don't see the armies looking good on the tabletop together. I don't care about BT's attitudes towards Xenos, or whatever. If I found a way to make Space Wolves and Orcs work together and look good together, you're damn sure I'll play them together.

 

The various possible combinations aren't nearly as bad as everyone is making them out to be. Whether allies were included or not, top tier builds will rise to the top anyways. This just gives us much more variety in armies to play.

 

To me, the people freaking out about allies reminds me of Magic: The Gathering players who are so committed to playing one colour only that they complain about their own limitations and neglect to make two- or three-colour decks because they see themselves as a "green mage" who would never use the same spells as a "blue mage." If that's your mentality, fine, there's nothing I can do to change it, but I just don't understand it.

 

This snap-judgment to ban allies and fortifications from tournaments reminds me of people who banned special characters from 5th Ed. tournaments. That seemed like an antiquated holdover from 4th Ed., as special characters aren't nearly as threatening as people feared. Those who banned SCs did so for incorrect judgments about power level and misguided judgments about fluff. I see a ban on allies and fortifications as the exact same.

 

(with one exception: banning fortifications has certain logistical aspects that could make it a necessity for TOs)

[the jeske]

Tier-seeking, tournament-type players are already cheesing everything they can and ignoring things they don't feel are competitive enough, there's already enough to abuse, and what's abuse-able is what's taken

do you the summoning [the GK version] or skulls for a BA DoA army ?

Do you know any viable elite/FA units that chaos can use over elite or FA they could get from lets say IG ?

How do you get psychic protection in your tau army in a psyker centric edition ?

how do you get enough AA without buying emplacments for non imperial armies [and some imperial ones too like SoB for example]?

what happens if an army other necron addes the storm lord to their list be it assault or gunline ?

how much would a chaos army using PMs and nurgle DPs be buffed , if it could run epidemus [and some bases of ultra deadly nurglings]?

 

Even armies like cortez builds can think about droping a unit of puris to added hmm lets say mefiston and get a huge fire magnet , a psychic hood and an ok counter unit [a libby with some ras works too].

 

sure some rules kind of a suck [buying an HQ a troop to open up a slot for a SP , even if the HQ is corbs sucks points wise]in some armies . but rules that dont ask for "target BA/DA/Eldar/ORC/etc" are awesome . Imagine you have a gunline that has problems with infiltration [like tau] psychic powers[like tau] and assault[like tau]. now imagine that army taking a 5-8 man GH squad[good counter unit] with a RP[ok counter with force weapon, rune stuff without FAQ beats psychic hood by miles] who has a chooser[blocks infiltration]. and you can even get access to either the new psychic powers or some non push over SW ones like LL,jaws, the anti deep strike one [deep strike=assault soon=bad for tau]. Now if the ally rules were you can buy from this list , but everything costs double . Well then it would require some hard thinking[naked RP would still probably be good for a tau list] , without debuffs like that all the old armies dont even have to think twice if they want to add some of the units from other dex.

[Daybreak]

Yeah, you can take good units + good units = good lists. I guess I don't see the problem here. Instead, I see it as a good thing that poor armies can shore up their weaknesses to some extent via allies. Tau can actually compete in an objective-based mission because they can get good troops. Armies that need long range fire support can get it. Armies that need psychic defense can get it. There are many, many more viable armies now.

[SevenExxes]

CREEEEEEEEEED!!

[Plague Angel]

I'll be honest, Jeske, I don't see the connection between your post and mine.

[Shmoe]

Allies is just another part of the game we are going to have to adapt too. Yes, it will take power gaming to an unheard level of cheese. Oh well... power gamers will always be power gamers. I believe there are larger complaints about the new edition that people should be mad at... things like price hikes. There is no way I could afford to buy into this hobby if I was a child or working a crap job.

 

Personally I like the idea of allies... It allows me to legally build armies that I always wanted to build. Most of them center around the Guard but there are so many options. I think my first foray into this will be a Tau force augmented by captured Imperial Guard who have picked up the Tau mentality. My Blood Angels will ally with some Grey Knights against Chaos Space Marines/ Deamon force or Deamon worshipping traitor guard force I have been thinking of.

 

option= limitless

 

My hope is that there are a lot more competitively viable army lists for every codex so that when I go to the Army Lists sections it doesnt look like people just copied and pasted other peoples lists everywhere.

[Leksington]

I'll be honest, Jeske, I don't see the connection between your post and mine.

If he misread your post, then I misread it too.

 

It seemed like you were saying that WAAC players were already cheesing it up as hard as it could be cheesed. The Jeske was suggesting that it can potentially be cheesed much harder. And I agree with him, it is much to early to conclude that Single codex cheese lists are going to be generally stronger than beardy Ally combos.

[Sviox]

Hmmm, some Ministorum Priests from IG list could be nice, assuming that BA squads would get the rerolls. I have some very old Valhallan IGs (1 squad, 1 command squad and some left-overs).

 

However, the priests are not counted as taking any force organization slots. Any idea if it's possible to get them? And recommendations on how to run/expand the IG? Maybe using the command squad as the company command squad and the other squad as a veteran squad for minimum mandatory slots. Getting some regimental advisers to manipulate the reserve rolls would sound nice as well.

[Venemox]

Allies is just another part of the game we are going to have to adapt too. Yes, it will take power gaming to an unheard level of cheese. Oh well... power gamers will always be power gamers. I believe there are larger complaints about the new edition that people should be mad at... things like price hikes. There is no way I could afford to buy into this hobby if I was a child or working a crap job.

 

Personally I like the idea of allies... It allows me to legally build armies that I always wanted to build. Most of them center around the Guard but there are so many options. I think my first foray into this will be a Tau force augmented by captured Imperial Guard who have picked up the Tau mentality. My Blood Angels will ally with some Grey Knights against Chaos Space Marines/ Deamon force or Deamon worshipping traitor guard force I have been thinking of.

 

option= limitless

 

My hope is that there are a lot more competitively viable army lists for every codex so that when I go to the Army Lists sections it doesnt look like people just copied and pasted other peoples lists everywhere.

 

Exactly. More options is always better. I'm looking forward to an OX Inquisitor and retinue teaming up with my BA Sternguards and Psycho Tycho (Non-DC version) acting as my Deathwatch Captain.

[benation]

I was playing 40000 Space Marine the other day and went through a part where guard are being rushed by orks and they're defending in a gun line, then you and your space marines come in on the flank and save the pinned down guards men.

 

I think with this in mind and the 6th edition rules for allies, it would be really cool to have my blood angels army all mounted in Storm Ravens (Flyers start in reserves) and then a small, lone imperial guard detatchement starting on the board, eg 2 squads of veterans and a psyker HQ (the cheapest units available), they're pinned down in turn 1 and then your 2 storm ravens swoop onto the board with Dante and Sanguinary guard and dreadnoughts in the back, or w/e. Just a cool idea of the space marines coming to the rescue :D

[the jeske]

I'll be honest, Jeske, I don't see the connection between your post and mine.

you claimed that tournament players with good tournament armies wont bother with ally [unless they are baned from tournaments of course] , I find that claim a false one.

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

i think from the standpoint of game design, the allies thing might be more about silencing those people who complain about what's in the new codex as well as hopefully opening up the number of potential sales on each new product. at the very least they know if you want to add paladins to your IG army, you will have to buy a new codex on top of the models, so a little money for them.

 

my problem with it will be if it turns out to completely dilute the game. right now, at my LGS, the main armies i run into are 'nids, BT, armored company guard, SM, DP SM, mech eldar, and crons, crons, crons, crons.... etc.

 

now, when i play one list over another it's a different game and my collect being as small as it is, i have trouble with some lists i play, more than others. it makes the game fun.

 

however, my store still has its share of neck decking, and if that becomes true with allies too, and suddenly everyone is playing GK/something, or some such nonsense, it will make the game lame. it could potentially mean that now every cheezy tournament list will be exactly the same, rather than picking from 3 or 4 codex, since now i can mix and match the best two. but even if it's not that bad, i think it will make every army seem more generic, since now they can add in a unit or two from another codex to cover their weaknesses. now tau can have superior assault troops instead of middling kroot, not to mention a psychic hood, etc.

 

on a more positive note. it means that chaos marines just got back their access to true, marked demons. it means that demons players might want to dust off their army since now they have a lot more options. (a whole codex or two worth actually.) it also means that now i can do a fluffy death watch army, GK ordo xenos inq and cortez with assassins and henchmen, backed by tycho and piles of sternguard.

[Makers]

Salamanders for the Reroll on Meltas and Flamers!!

[Morticon]

Salamanders for the Reroll on Meltas and Flamers!!

 

Just not our melta/flamers since we dont have combat tactics.

 

isnt that how it works?

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

yeah, but do our sanguinary priest cross boundries? if so, that's it, everyone who plays space marines would be crazy not to take a handful of SHP and like, a librarian or maybe one of our better named characters and a troops assault squad.

[Morticon]

yeah, but do our sanguinary priest cross boundries? if so, that's it, everyone who plays space marines would be crazy not to take a handful of SHP and like, a librarian or maybe one of our better named characters and a troops assault squad.

 

Info is limited, but it appears "Battle Brothers aka BFFs" can have their ICs join each other. It also says that their psychic powers can affect each other.

 

But there's conflicting info of whether or not other abilities work across.

[Taranis]

Farseer, runes of warding and ? 90-100 points. Great psychic defence?

[Leksington]

Salamanders for the Reroll on Meltas and Flamers!!

 

Just not our melta/flamers since we dont have combat tactics.

 

isnt that how it works?

After reading a length argument about this, I've come to the conclusion that RAW (for the moment) has BA meltas and flamers becoming twin-linked if Vulcan is an ally (and hammers becoming master crafted).

 

His rules reads to the effect that "all units in your army lose chapter tactics." It doesn't say "exchange" like most of the other chapter masters. BA would get twin-linked for the same reason SM vehicles (which don't have combat tactics) in a vulcan lead army get twin-linked.

 

I could see this being FAQed though. The FAQs can't come out fast enough!

[JamesI]

Salamanders for the Reroll on Meltas and Flamers!!

 

Just not our melta/flamers since we dont have combat tactics.

 

isnt that how it works?

After reading a length argument about this, I've come to the conclusion that RAW (for the moment) has BA meltas and flamers becoming twin-linked if Vulcan is an ally (and hammers becoming master crafted).

 

His rules reads to the effect that "all units in your army lose chapter tactics." It doesn't say "exchange" like most of the other chapter masters. BA would get twin-linked for the same reason SM vehicles (which don't have combat tactics) in a vulcan lead army get twin-linked.

 

I could see this being FAQed though. The FAQs can't come out fast enough!

By RAW (pre inevitable FAQ) this is the correct interpretation. It does not require exchanging/

[Sir Blayse]

Not sure how it will work but, since I own both Guard and Codex marines could be interesting. I'm thinking the best idea for me would be able to run an IG platoon with several heavy weapons teams. Finally able to get plenty of long range firepower to assist with getting up all close and personal. Plus, it can make for some interesting mech lists. Also, being able to run my Russes with my Razor list would be fun. Open them up with AssCan and Lascan, then blow them to bits with the Russ. Now blasts are even better at hitting, so we'll see how that goes.

[Deschenus Maximus]

It would be absolutely an hateful travesty for abilities to cross over between allies, both from a balance and from a fluff standpoint. Blood Chalices affect Blood Angels for very clear reasons: their lord and father Sanguinius is speaking through the cup and encouraging them to fight harder and better. How the nine hells would an unaugmented human (guardsman) be able to hear him?

[Plague Angel]

I'll be honest, Jeske, I don't see the connection between your post and mine.

If he misread your post, then I misread it too.

 

It seemed like you were saying that WAAC players were already cheesing it up as hard as it could be cheesed. The Jeske was suggesting that it can potentially be cheesed much harder. And I agree with him, it is much to early to conclude that Single codex cheese lists are going to be generally stronger than beardy Ally combos.

 

Ah, I see. So I wasn't misunderstood after all, I should just phrase my point better.

 

Yes to use your phrase, WAAC players were already cheesing it up as hard as it could be cheesed, I think. This is sort of What They Do, as I understand it. But the operative words are "could be." So to put it another way, WAAC players were putting 100% Cheese into their lists.

 

Now things can be cheesed harder, yes. Therefore, WAAC players are going to cheese more, because if they didn't, then they would no longer be cheesing at the entire possible 100%. But the power level of the game rose, and yes, they will rise to match.

 

But the relative percentage of cheese is about the same, given the realms of possibility. More importantly, those players' attitudes were the same back in 5th as they are now, maximizing their list potential and bringing every possible advantage they could muster to win. There are just more things to be mustered, now, but they aren't really mustering any "harder."

 

I doubt anyone who played single-codex lists for other reasons is suddenly going to become a WAAC player just because of ally opportunities, but I may of course be wrong on that.

 

Does that make more sense?

 

you claimed that tournament players with good tournament armies wont bother with ally [unless they are baned from tournaments of course] , I find that claim a false one.

 

That is not what I meant, at all; that is not it, at all.

[Arkangilos]

Are you basically saying that the cheesers will be cheesers, and those who are not are not going to change because of allies?

[knife&fork]

Are you basically saying that the cheesers will be cheesers, and those who are not are not going to change because of allies?

 

I for one will happily ally that minimal guard HQ and vet squad to get a juicy hydra battery.

[Plague Angel]

Are you basically saying that the cheesers will be cheesers, and those who are not are not going to change because of allies?

 

That is what I am saying, though I'm more confident in that first clause than the second.