What Allies will you take?

[Cmdr Shepard]

I'm not going to worry overly much about it, I imagine it will make a lot more sense when we can see the book.

Indeed.

Beside I suppose the only difference between "Brothers in arms" and "Allies of Convenience" is the the ability of the first to use the Warlord's "traits" and allow the IC to join respective units. I may be wrong but I believe it's a reasonable prediction.

 

I think it won't change our strategies too much. We cannot place a GK Grand Master in an IG platoon: no problem. We can still use IG big guns to gain long range fire support, countering one of our greatest weekness. Do you remember the times when some players said: "Imagine if GK had IG range". Now we can have it!

 

Do any of ou have some idea for IG units to join GK?

I'm thinking about some Basilisk and/or Leman Russ, plus some infantry platoon. We just have to see how many of them we can include in our army... well about 4 days left :P

[thade]

Do any of ou have some idea for IG units to join GK?

I see some combination of GK/IG units via Allied rules opening the door for old style Ordo armies from 4th Ed.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Do any of ou have some idea for IG units to join GK?

I see some combination of GK/IG units via Allied rules opening the door for old style Ordo armies from 4th Ed.

According to rumors we have to choose Allies with the following FOC (I saw it posted in a topic here on B&C but I cannot find the link)

 

1 HQ

1-2 Troops

0-1Elite

0-1 Fast support

0-1 Heavy support

 

Considering this FOC accurate, at least for now, what IG units could improve the performance of our GK?

I'm thinking about a good amount of infatry models to increase our numbers, according to WB battle report allies troops can control objectives, and a vehicle squadron, Leman Russ, for example.

Even fielding a Vendetta sounds interesting. It will offer multiple flying targets if you decide to field Stormravens.

[Ragnar_Blackmane]

Do any of ou have some idea for IG units to join GK?

I see some combination of GK/IG units via Allied rules opening the door for old style Ordo armies from 4th Ed.

According to rumors we have to choose Allies with the following FOC (I saw it posted in a topic here on B&C but I cannot find the link)

 

1 HQ

1-2 Troops

0-1Elite

0-1 Fast support

0-1 Heavy support

 

Considering this FOC accurate, at least for now, what IG units could improve the performance of our GK?

I'm thinking about a good amount of infatry models to increase our numbers, according to WB battle report allies troops can control objectives, and a vehicle squadron, Leman Russ, for example.

Even fielding a Vendetta sounds interesting. It will offer multiple flying targets if you decide to field Stormravens.

Support: Maxed out squadron of Hydras to deal with all the flyers the next 5 years

[Cmdr Shepard]

Do any of ou have some idea for IG units to join GK?

I see some combination of GK/IG units via Allied rules opening the door for old style Ordo armies from 4th Ed.

According to rumors we have to choose Allies with the following FOC (I saw it posted in a topic here on B&C but I cannot find the link)

 

1 HQ

1-2 Troops

0-1Elite

0-1 Fast support

0-1 Heavy support

 

Considering this FOC accurate, at least for now, what IG units could improve the performance of our GK?

I'm thinking about a good amount of infatry models to increase our numbers, according to WB battle report allies troops can control objectives, and a vehicle squadron, Leman Russ, for example.

Even fielding a Vendetta sounds interesting. It will offer multiple flying targets if you decide to field Stormravens.

Support: Maxed out squadron of Hydras to deal with all the flyers the next 5 years

I suppose that will be my choice in the next few months. Currently very few players in my local game store have a relevant number of flyers. Right now I have a clear air superiority :huh:

[number6]

Support: Maxed out squadron of Hydras to deal with all the flyers the next 5 years

Hydras were already very very good.

 

6e is only going to make them better ... if not outright necessary.

 

This is exactly the kind of allying abuse that will happen, and that I feared would happen, and that I loathe to happen.

 

Perhaps only Tau have an easier allying matrix than IG. Virtually everybody can get them. (Except Tyranids, of course.) And the Imperials won't have any drawbacks for taking IG units while the Xenos will.

 

Like I've been saying all along: 6e is only going to push the power curve of Imperials even higher ... and all at the expense of non-Imperials. Yay. :huh:

[Gentlemanloser]

I disagree.

 

The imperials won't *need* to ally, as they're quite sturdy enough as is. I mean, what would you want to ally in with the SW? The Farseer is gonna get hit with the nerfbat very hard! Well, Runes of Warding are. :huh:

 

Where as the Xenos will be able to patch up parts of where they've been let down, with allies.

 

Deldar assaulty list but feel the pain due toy our paper thin flyers? Ally in some Eldar cousin and nab thier Wave Serpents! Can't stop your Tau gunline from folding? Ally in some IG platoons and blobs to soak up the CC rush, while Pew Pewing away.

 

That sort of thing. :D

[Cmdr Shepard]

Support: Maxed out squadron of Hydras to deal with all the flyers the next 5 years

Hydras were already very very good.

 

6e is only going to make them better ... if not outright necessary.

 

This is exactly the kind of allying abuse that will happen, and that I feared would happen, and that I loathe to happen.

 

Perhaps only Tau have an easier allying matrix than IG. Virtually everybody can get them. (Except Tyranids, of course.) And the Imperials won't have any drawbacks for taking IG units while the Xenos will.

 

Like I've been saying all along: 6e is only going to push the power curve of Imperials even higher ... and all at the expense of non-Imperials. Yay. :)

Beside IG allows you to field the units you want by allocating very few points in the mandatory HQ and Troop choices. Not to mention a good amount of troops may even help elite armies...

Tau have a potential too. You can add some S10 Ap1 weapon or using their battlesuits for "disturbing the enemy" with their mobility and their ability to glance most transports to death (If I'm not mistaken they have a lot of S5 weapon or above)

[number6]

Where as the Xenos will be able to patch up parts of where they've been let down, with allies.

 

Deldar assaulty list but feel the pain due toy our paper thin flyers? Ally in some Eldar cousin and nab thier Wave Serpents! Can't stop your Tau gunline from folding? Ally in some IG platoons and blobs to soak up the CC rush, while Pew Pewing away.

 

That sort of thing. ;)

All of which leaves me cold. Either you'll see pure Imperial armies (single codex), mixed Imperial armies, or Xenos with Imperial allies.

 

Imperials, Imperials, and more Imperials. ;)

 

And Tyranids the army that nobody ever plays again. ;)

 

I just can't get excited by seeing more opportunities to use more Imperial units in my -- or anybody else's -- armies.

 

Essentially, 6e allies is GW's tacit acknowledgment that it sucks at game design, and the Imperials are the only forces that really matter. Your Xenos army suck? Ally in some Space Marines to make it all better! :)

 

I like all of 40K. I want all of 40K. I don't relish the idea that every time I take my GKs out for a spin, I will see Imperials across the table from me. Allies are exactly the opposite of what I want. I want all codexes to be good. Not an excuse by GW to continue to be lazy.

[boreas]

I like all of 40K. I want all of 40K. I don't relish the idea that every time I take my GKs out for a spin, I will see Imperials across the table from me. Allies are exactly the opposite of what I want. I want all codexes to be good. Not an excuse by GW to continue to be lazy.

 

So true... I spent 4th ed and most of 5th ed trying to keep playing my sisters and GKs through allies. Now, the Sisters have been sold, and I finally got a nice pure GK army. I don't feel like cherry-picking (because, we all know most "alliances" will actually be min-maxing) to compensate for my army. And I don't really like the idea of facing Eldrad 90% of the time, be it with Tau, Eldars, DE, whatever...

[thade]

...doom and gloom...

Even if this is all true, the long-term effect will still be that the tournament circuit remains stagnant in list design and super meta'd. Key-word is remains. It will be no different in that regard. There will always be a way to break any game out there; it's not like 40k is some big-time exception. If anything, the massive amount of additional variety will introduce more loopholes that can't possibly be tested by whatever small beta test team they have there.

 

If it's actually bad we'll see both NO-ALLIES tournaments and even friendly games, as well as NO-FLYERS, etc. The Allied rules don't seem like they're in to address weakpoints in armies; they seem to be in for fluff and flavor alone. It makes ZERO sense for anybody to ally with Tyranids. They need no one, they want no one, they need and want only food. They don't make good friends. <3

 

6th Ed. will present more variety and some interesting rebalancing to the game. If you game with reasonable people, you will probably continue to have just as much fun as you did before.

 

I am really excited about this edition.

[Gentlemanloser]

All of which leaves me cold.

 

Deldar using Eldar units leaves you cold becuase it's imperial on imperial?

 

I can't remember if any of this is actually legit, not memorised the table yet, but how about;

 

Tau feel the lack of MCs in 6th, so decide to ally with Chaos Deamons. Daemon Princes backing up a Tau gunline. Deldar blasterspam decides to use a gazilion ork bodies to tarpit people. Or an Incubi/Wych CC based list allies in a few 'crons for turns of nightfighting to cover the distance without using any WWP. For that matter, Tau takes cron's again for Writhing Worldscape to stop those advancing on thier gunline, and a few enemy turns of night fighing in the bargin.

 

There's a load of combo's, that don't require any Imperial presence.

 

But take SW or Bangles. What would you ally? Why bother, whe the dex is good enough in itself. ou're just taking points away from your uber undercosted Grey Hunters, or Baal Preds.

 

That's the balancing act allies will bring. :pinch:

 

Edit: Purchasable Terrain is more doom and gloom worthy than allies. :) Pathfinders in Bunkers / behind Aegis defense lines. Tank traps versus a mech rush army. That sort of stuff.

[boreas]

@Thade.

 

I really like your whole attitude through all those thread (no sarcasm here!). A positive attitude is too often lacking on the Net... I DO like 99% of what 6th is offering. The only two things I don't like are: 2 FOC at 2000pts and the allies. I think this might have been resolved better through better (and faster) codex-writing. The potential for fluff list is nice, but I fear the this will be abused. I also don't trust GW to take this into account when writing future codexes, thus making the whole system less and less balanced...

 

Phil

[Inquisitor Fox]

Some parts of allies have me very excited. In the fluff I'm building about the Ilsa system... I have an Inquisitor in deep cover in a rebel faction to try and pinpoint the souce of the rebellion that ends up allied with the Tau. He is stuck staying in cover during the war and ends up intrigued by the Tau's knowledge of Chaos forces yet their resistance to it. As an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor, anything that can be made aware of Chaos, remain strong against it, and help fight it gets his attention as Chaos is the true enemy. Yes he has touches of radical in a sense in that he's for working with Xenos such as Harlequins or Tau, but very much anti-Chaos. His warband will include a harlequin "counts-as" DCA converted with two power weapons, one of his warriors will be modeled as a Fire Warrior (working on the conversion for that, need a few more bits), and I'm considering getting him a kroot too but that one isn't as nice of a "counts-as" based on the Kroot statline and fluff. He definitely gets a Jokaero :unsure:

 

And now there's a way I can field an Inquisitor, a warband, with my Tau army to represent this fluff? I view the having to have one troop choice as an utter pain in this circumstance but one I'm more willing to put up with if it means I can sometimes represent the fluff I'm building in my head on the tabletop. Maybe there's just a 5 man strike squad on standby or something... bare bones unit. (no, he's not a counts as Coteaz)

 

And of course letting my Sisters and Grey Knights play together will be fun again. Or getting to have my Exorcists Chapter assist the Ordo Malleus strike team and getting to use all sorts of fun toys.

 

Downsides? People that decide they're going to mix close combat units of Eldar Harlequins in Wave Serpents and a single minimum sized Rangers squad supporting a Tau firing line of Broadsides and Crisis Suits backed up by scoring MSU pulse rifle troops in Devilfish. Any time people introduce an option, there will be people who seek every single way to twist and abuse that option to their advantage. Some things will be fielded on the table with absolutely no thought at all. Unfortunately there's no way to avoid having one without the other. Do I think it's bad that GW is giving us the option? Not necessarily... it will in the end be up to gaming communities to regulate themselves. It's the same thing with gaming groups and pencil n paper RPGs. Just because the rules let something happen, the DM and players still have to maintain the ability to say "no, not in our house."

[number6]

All of which leaves me cold.

 

Deldar using Eldar units leaves you cold becuase it's imperial on imperial?

That strikes me as just as unfluffy. How is it that DE and Eldar are "Brothers in Arms", anyway? Not according to the fluff I've read!

 

I agree that there are a lot of exciting possibilities with allies.

 

But I already know what will happen in my neck of the woods. I'll see a lot of Farseers showing up to defend against psyker powers. I'll see a lot of hydra flak batteries showing up to pop flying MCs and flying vehicles. I'll see a gazillion "Imperial+" armies rather than anything non-Imperial. I won't see a single Tyranids army unless I'm the one fielding it.

 

And I'm not even talking about local tournaments.

 

Tournaments, of course, will have nothing but Imperial mixes.

 

:unsure:

[Cmdr Shepard]

Talking about the "mere tactical aspect",

I'm the only one who thinks Necron allies will make quite interesting "flyer spam" lists?

 

Most not very expensive Nercon units have the chance to take a flyer as dedicated transport, add the heavy support one plus GK stormravens and you will have a nice "wing".

 

It's not even difficult to justify the "fluff" behind the alliance. New Nercons Overlords would not have a problem in fighting with GK against a common enemy, after all they already traded technology with them ;)

 

There is always the option of making the Necrons count as Adeptus Mechanicus :unsure:

[thade]

Downsides? ....Any time people introduce an option, there will be people who seek every single way to twist and abuse that option to their advantage.

Tournaments, of course, will have nothing but Imperial mixes.

This is completely independent of what edition we're playing. 6th Ed. adds variety, complexity, and their jerk of a little brother, loopholes. 40k has been and remains poorly suited for purely competitive play. I don't expect 6th Ed. to change that. The real problem is not the rules; it's application of little brother Loopholes by some subset of the players.

 

EDIT: CLARIFICATION.

[thade]

There is always the option of making the Necrons count as Adeptus Mechanicus :D

Allies add some fun flexibility here. Core counts-as Necron list with an allied counts-as GK detachment...and you have some massive walkers, seedy henchmen, tech priests, and lots of fancy guns.

 

I love this.

[Gentlemanloser]

That strikes me as just as unfluffy. How is it that DE and Eldar are "Brothers in Arms", anyway? Not according to the fluff I've read!

 

Not any more. Much like the 'cron rework/retcon (to make them more than just another 'nids), the Deldar and Eldar do co-operate with each other.

 

It also gives Eldar players the ability to make corsair lists. <_<

[thade]

That strikes me as just as unfluffy. How is it that DE and Eldar are "Brothers in Arms", anyway? Not according to the fluff I've read!

Not any more. Much like the 'cron rework/retcon (to make them more than just another 'nids), the Deldar and Eldar do co-operate with each other.

Make no mistake, they HATE each other, but neither camp is stupid. If they need to work together to survive, they will, and they will give it their all.

 

EDIT: Spacing.

[number6]

Talking about the "mere tactical aspect",

I'm the only one who thinks Necron allies will make quite interesting "flyer spam" lists?

Dark Eldar for the "flyer spam". Other than vendettas, DE have the best flyers around.

[Cmdr Shepard]

There is always the option of making the Necrons count as Adeptus Mechanicus :D

Allies add some fun flexibility here. Core counts-as Necron list with an allied counts-as GK detachment...and you have some massive walkers, seedy henchmen, tech priests, and lots of fancy guns.

 

I love this.

Glad to see you like it... I wanted to to an Adeptus Mechanicus army with Nercon models and rules from... well nearly 2 years :D

I also plan to use a SM detatchment to represent Death Watch. Grey Knights and Death Watch on the table: I love it :D

 

Talking about the "mere tactical aspect",

I'm the only one who thinks Necron allies will make quite interesting "flyer spam" lists?

Dark Eldar for the "flyer spam". Other than vendettas, DE have the best flyers around.

But the only flyers they have are Heavy Support, thus you can field only one of them. Beside only Voidraven is AV11 on front and side. Nightwing is AV10 and I suppose massed bolter fire can harm it even with BS1.

 

Necrons allow you to take flyers as dedicated transports. If you buy them form 2x5 Warriors you can have two flyers allocating just few points to the "base units". Not to mention the usefulness of an even larger squad: Gauss weapon auto-glance on 6 will hurt vehicles, especially if the Hull Points system works as we heard.

If you want to invest few other points (about half on SM tactical squad) and you may field deathmarks with another flyer.

I have still to make the calculations but 5/7 flyers (GK+Necron), depending on the points limit, can be difficult to deal with.

[*Furyou Miko]

Necrons also have the best anti-fliers. Even if we don't assume that Fliers hit each other on Ballistic Skill, they have twin-linked tesla destructors. These are S7, Assault 4 guns that hit 3 times for every 6 rolled on the to-hit die.

 

That's 165 points for a flier with a pair of cut-down autocannons and five guys who can glance any vehicle in the game to death in a couple of turns (BS4 Rapid Fire, but requiring 6s to glance) and who have a relatively good chance of surviving even if they lose a couple of squaddies.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Necrons also have the best anti-fliers. Even if we don't assume that Fliers hit each other on Ballistic Skill, they have twin-linked tesla destructors. These are S7, Assault 4 guns that hit 3 times for every 6 rolled on the to-hit die.

 

That's 165 points for a flier with a pair of cut-down autocannons and five guys who can glance any vehicle in the game to death in a couple of turns (BS4 Rapid Fire, but requiring 6s to glance) and who have a relatively good chance of surviving even if they lose a couple of squaddies.

I agree. Beside Flyers use their BS when they attack other flyers (source: WD)

 

Two warriors squads, an Heavy Support, and eventually a squad of deathmarks and we'll get 4 allied flyers, add Stormravens and you should have no problem in establishing air superiority :lol:

[Vor]

I'll take an Emperor's Champion and a squad of BT. I bought a really nice pro painted EC on Ebay last year, but have never used it.