Brother Anders Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Hey everybody! Anders here (just joined yesterday) and I was wondering, How many ships does the Dark Angels Chapter have? I'd imagine that they would have a bunch because their HQ is The Rock. I wanna know because a friend and I were having a discusion on what would happen if the Black Templar found out our secret (he's a BT player) I know theres a topic for that but I couldn't find the answer to my question. And any Halo fan knows (been one for years) It doesn't matter how well you can fight on the ground, You lose automatically if you can't win a space battle(especially when you bring in exterminatus). Any thoughts guys? I'm also looking for the successor fleet's numbers too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I'm not sure there is a clear answer to your question. Lexcicanum lists these. Most with citations. Though some are Cruade era. So who knows if they still exist. Isiah (a mod here) on his site, has these listed. But I think the info, perhaps in part, may be of his own devising. And I always loved these a well put together collection, regardless of fluff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 To be honest, I'm not sure hard and solid numbers for the Dark Angel fleet have been stated anywhere (if there were, I've long since forgotten them), but the number and class of ships is one of those "loose canon" situations anyway, from what I've seen with other chapters. The numbers probably fluctuate, both in the game universe and within GW's/BL's/FW's written works. Remember, there's no official 40K "encyclopedia" of hard facts and numbers for this universe (and that's part of the beauty of the setting, IMO). Now, your discussion brings up an interesting point, and I think you guys should keep talking about it, because it could lead to a fun personal campaign for you guys. Is this a single BT Marine that has uncovered some evidence? A squad? A small detachment? A task force? The whole Chapter? Even more important are the following two questions: WHAT evidence of the secret does the BT have and HOW did they get it? Also, where were the Dark Angels when this evidence was unearthed? Why didn't they intervene upon its discovery, as they have with almost every other mention of information uncovered about the Fallen? Why exactly do the Black Templars believe this evidence? Assuming that the amount of Templas believing the evidence is high enough, what exactly do they intend to do with it? Have they managed to keep the Dark Angels completely unaware of the existence of this evidence (something I would consider very unlikely)? Remember also, as much as the Black Templars are respected, the Dark Angels were the First Legion, they are, as all First Foundings are, very, very respected, and even if they are the worst thought of of all the First Foundings (doubtful), they still hold more esteem than any Second Founding or below. They are still looked upon as heroes and therefore attempts to tarnish their image or even get them declared Excommunicatis would have to be very convincing. It can't just be the words of a single traitor Dark Angel, regardless of how damned the Dark Angels themselves might consider that. Also remember, it would be highly frowned upon for the Black Templars to just declare a Crusade against the Dark Angels, one Chapter can't just choose to wipe out another chapter all on their lonesome, especially a First Founding, and find a sympathetic audience in the populace of humanity, and depending on how you view the High Lords of Terra, some of them may be cranky too. Also, consider what might happen with the Black Templars if they did manage to secure the ability to declare a Crusade against the Dark Angels, the DA would probably gather ALL the Unforgiven, however, the Black Templars, if they tried to gather all their forces, would probably in their zeal inadvertently reveal that their numbers are far, far beyond the allowed 1K Marines, so they themselves, regardless of the results of their actions, would likely face some sort of censure/punishment if their greater numbers ended up revealed, and 1K Black Templars are not going to take down 6K+ Unforgiven. Remember, one of the triggers for the Badab War was the fact that Huron was inflating his Chapter above the magical 1K number. Hope that gives you some stuff to discuss with your friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Is this a single BT Marine that has uncovered some evidence? A squad? A small detachment? A task force? The whole Chapter? Well, we know what happens to at least a small task force sized contingent... they get lost in the warp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Anders Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 He made most of those points, but i'm definitely bringing up the "over 1k" thing. Plus I think the Rock alone can destroy the BT fleet by itself, It's description says so. I would also like to know how one would go about excommunicating the DA, interesting thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klisof Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 The relative fleet sizes and power of both the DA and BT fleets is something that has not been defined, I don't think either fleet will be detailed much by GW (unless they decide to be more specific about the number of BT's in the chapter which I hope they don't do) I think it was hinted in BFG that the DA have a LOT of escort ships. One of the SM escorts (the Hunter) was listed in BFG Armarda as having been developed originally by the DA's so they could construct their own fleet of escorts without relying on anyopne else. I would assume the DA have a larger than typical fleet for a SM chapter to help their search, which would have been largely constructed in secret. I think this would help stop the Inquistion knowing just how many ships the DA have, so avoiding silly questions from the inquisition like 'so why do the DA's have so many ships carrying out searchs of the galaxy? What are they looking for? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Anders Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 Nothing, just burning some heretics and spreading the word of the Emperor B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathwing70 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Also, consider what might happen with the Black Templars if they did manage to secure the ability to declare a Crusade against the Dark Angels, the DA would probably gather ALL the Unforgiven Not to mention how many other "first" founding chapters/legions and their successors might jump in to aid the first legion. Even though it's been 10.000 years, I'm sure the Dark Angels have earned some respect and brownies with other legions. Like our stick fetching palls for example... Think about it logically, they better have some damn good proof just to convince themselves and imo, the proof doesn't exist. Finding a single fallen (assuming he's not corrupted by Chaos already) in this age that "explains" to them what happened to Caliban (oh and it happened 10.000 years ago) will probably be declared mad and turned over to the Dark Angels themselves. "Here's your brother, I swear we found him like this..." If the fallen resists and fights... they will kill him, probably NOT tell the Dark Angels and steal his mk3/mk4 boots... I think the only way any chapter is going to go to war with Dark Angels is if a group of Dark Angels (fallen) start killing/starting a war/killing loyalists who identify them as Dark Angels, basically give the illusion they are "modern" Dark Angels. But then what happens? A group of Fallen will be noticed by either the Dark Angels themselves or some of the successors much faster and what will eventually be written in the history books is "some merchants came to this sector and found all planets wiped clean, no ships at all, just wreckage. This is a mystery". (Besides we'd probably plant some dead Eldar bodies here and there so the blame would go to some passing-by Craftworld, we are the strategic masters after all. Cleaning up loose ends is something we've been practising for 10.000 years B)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Andrew of Britain Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 One thing that everyone in support of the DA seems to have forgottne is that the Imperium, especially the first founding chapters, would see a refusal to answer questions on the subject when confronted very suspicious, and would act accordingly. Als the Space Wolves, by far the largest Space Marine chapter in existance would not be quick to aid the DA, nor would the inquisition, thhe Imperial Fists, or any of their other successors since it's the Black Templar initiating this purgation. Food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 What gets forgotten is that you have to have a reason to start asking questions... Who listens to a whackadoo wearing armor in panalopy not seen in 10K years? There's not a simple cut and dried answer to this, but frankly, I'd assume that the Dark Angels can lie well enough to cover up probably almost any Fallen issue. What is also forgotten is that while the Unforgiven consider the Fallen a huge issue, they really aren't much of a threat, to the Unforgiven or the Imperium. There are plenty worse threats out there and the Dark Angels and several other successors have ten thousand years of history of being loyal. Even though GW has been plentiful in showing the DA and successors abandoning the field of battle, it really wouldn't happen all that often. It would require a LOT more work than the Imperium puts forward to actually track those occurrences and actually put together a pattern. Seriously, this is an administrative body that LOSES planets! It's unlikely that it would even happen more than once in any given Inquisitor's lifetime, and that organization is hardly the best example of information sharing and brotherly togetherness. TBH, the Inquisition would probably be more likely to seek after answers from the Unforgiven for other transgressions and stumble upon their secrets accidentally than they would to start verbally asking questions like "So who was that guy dressed in your old panalopy?" and an Unforgiven Inner Circle Member just up and giving them the answer rather than lying outright and having his buddies back him up. The Imperium doesn't just declare Excommunicatis because of suspicions and 1st Foundings aren't going to turn on other 1st Foundings for the same, at worst they just sit back and watch. I've already pointed out the reasons why it would be more dangerous for the BTs to execute a Crusade against the DA when they have their own flaw (they are way past the 1K Marines limit) that would probably be seen as worse than the secret of the Fallen, as it's already been shown that violating that edict and knowingly continuing on the path gets you declared a traitor ala the Astral Claws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Anders Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 Valid points, but this is a universe that anything can happen in, what if Cypher gets to Terra and starts killing Officials and maybe even the Emperor, or presents the sword to him. Questions will be asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Chaplain Nemiel Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Valid points, but this is a universe that anything can happen in, what if Cypher gets to Terra and starts killing Officials and maybe even the Emperor, or presents the sword to him. Questions will be asked. Kill the Emperor? You can consider hin dead for 10000 years now...at least i highly doubt hes deciding anything at all anymore...then better kill officals, would hurt the imperium more! :pinch: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 If he got to the Emperor, there would be a bigger issue than who is he. They won't care about the DA if the Big E got killed... On topic: The DA fleet is expansive with escorts, larger warships, Strike Cruisers, Battle-Barges, The Rock and a host of supply craft, training ships, Forge-ships and the like. The fleet is also spread over the area of space near the Cadian Gate where the Chapter is based. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Anders Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 Hey Marshall Andrew, nice of you to join us! (My BT friend) Back to topic: The DA fleet is expansive with escorts, larger warships, Strike Cruisers, Battle-Barges, The Rock and a host of supply craft, training ships, Forge-ships and the like. The fleet is also spread over the area of space near the Cadian Gate where the Chapter is based. I think it was hinted in BFG that the DA have a LOT of escort ships. would assume the DA have a larger than typical fleet for a SM chapter to help their search, which would have been largely constructed in secret. I think this would help stop the Inquistion knowing just how many ships the DA have Thanks! Exactly what I wanted to know (well besides numbers but that's impossible). Sorry that I don't know how to directly quote someone yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 I would think that something very similar about the BTs would also be true though, given their Crusading nature. At one point it was mentioned that even the BTs aren't 100% sure exactly how many Marines they have because they are never all gathered into one single place due to ongoing Crusades. They'd probably have a larger than normal fleet compliment due to that situation as well, although they may be even more dispersed than the DA are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Pray please do tell me one chapter/legion that has not lost any marine to chaos. So what if a chapter finds some fallen? The DA could easily capture some BT that have fallen/reneged. Should we declare a war on the grounds that ALL templars are Khornate cultists? Such things dont work that way. If that was the case the adeptus astartes would have teared the imperium apart themselves by now. Even if they brandish the DA heraldry in the open and upon capture they start to spew about the fall (something thats not about to happen either way IMHO since the fallen that have not become chaos marines consider themselves the true DA so a partly second rate chapter does not warrant their confessions) the worst thing that can happen is to call on the DA make an inquiry to the inquisition. All three sides (BT DA INQ) will declare them heretics/madmen and burn them. And why capture them alive in the first place? Since when do the templars capture chaos/renegade marines alive? Meanwhile Ezekiel will write off a couple of names from the book of salvation, Saphon and Asmodai will collect the nearest ravenwing force and...'Scold them' for failing to spot the fallen. Done. It was Abbadon and his sachems i tell you! I would think that something very similar about the BTs would also be true though, given their Crusading nature. At one point it was mentioned that even the BTs aren't 100% sure exactly how many Marines they have because they are never all gathered into one single place due to ongoing Crusades. They'd probably have a larger than normal fleet compliment due to that situation as well, although they may be even more dispersed than the DA are. And when you cant tell your own numbers you can get past 10k of scheming and lies and misinformation and planted agents and inner circles? Good luck i say ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 In the Forge World book Betrayal the Dark Angels Fleet size is mentioned as being the largest (along with the Sons of Horus and Imperial Fists) ;) :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Haladriel Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 In the Forge World book Betrayal the Dark Angels Fleet size is mentioned as being the largest (along with the Sons of Horus and Imperial Fists) :lol: :( I was going to write the same thing. SPOLIER for Shadows of Treachery STOP READING IF YOU HAVENT READ IT. Also in "Shadows of Treachery" the DA fleet that was with The Lion (Invincible Reason as flagship) wipes the floor with the Night Lords entire fleet and Legion, twice. That was not even a fraction of the DA fleet that was with The Lion. If a partial DA fleet can destroy an entire Legion's fleet they have to be massive I presume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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