A different kind of Honor Guard

[appiah4]

I was browsing our codex and a thought occurred to me: Storm Bolters are painfully underutilized.

 

Wherever and whenever possible, these weapons, for a measly 3 points, are incredibly better than both Bolters and Bolt Pistols.

 

vs. Bolters: The humble bolter can fire twice at 12" on the move and once at 24" when stationary (admittedly they'll fire on the move as well in 6th edition, but regardless,) whereas the Storm Bolter can fire twice up to 24" and allow you to assault. The ability to assault alone is worth 3 pts, increased rate of fire at range is the icing on the cake.

vs. Bolt Pistols: The Bolt Pistol fires once at 12" and gives you +1A in assault. Compared to the Storm Bolter, the +1A is essentially useless. If unarmed, the model takes 1 extra S4/5 I4/5 attack at WS4, risking retaliation. The Storm Bolter gives you one extra S4 AP5 shot at range without retaliaton. If you pair them with special weapons, the BP/PW combination gives you one extra S4/5 I4/5 armor ignoring (AP2 in 6th Ed.) attack but the SB/Lightning Claw makes up for this with the re-rolls. If you are using a Power Fist, the Storm Bolter has no competition whatsoever.

 

So where can you take Storm Bolters?

 

Well, obviously your Sergeants can, and they should, whenever possible. This is what I have come to decide - You should never arm your Sergeants with Bolters or Bolt Pistols. Always arm them with Strom Bolters, unless you are giving them Combi-Weapons, and give them Lightning Claws instead of Power Weapons. (Now, at this point, if my conclusion is wrong, feel free to point at me and laugh! I am considering re modeling a lot of units at the moemnt..)

 

Your Sanguinary Priests can, and should. Always give them the SB/LC combination instead of the BP/PW.

 

Your Captain can, and should. The SB/LC captain i a measly 113 points and no pushover in combat.

 

Your Sternguard can, and should not. Obviously.

 

And finally, your Honor Guard should.

 

I propose to you this Honor Guard build:

 

Honor Guard, 4x Storm Bolters, 3x Lightning Claws, 1x Thunder Hammer

 

It comes out at pretty much the exact cost as a Terminator Squad, combining the best of Pros and Cons below:

+ Can sweeping advance

+ Can board cheap vehicles

+ Can use Drop Pods

+ Have hidden SP for FC/FNP

+ Can take jumppacks for super mobility

+ Do not take a FOC slot

+ Can be upgraded with banners and Storm Shields

- 3+/5++* compared to 2+/5++

- Lack heavy weapons

 

* Remember that in 6th Ed FNP is 5++ vs anything but S8+

 

So.. What say you B&C? Am I onto something?

[Talnox]

I wouldnt build anything untill we find out what rules changes are in 6th. Other than that I prefer special weaps (plasma, melta, flamer) on my honor guard.

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

supposedly, assault weapons will almost count as a pistol for the extra attack in 6th edition. or at least that was a rumor and it was in the orphan rules, wasn't it?

[pararanger]

Yeah... gotta stick with my love of Meltaguns. I just like having that ability to pop armor. Nothing against the storm bolter, but meltaguns although more expensive have more than paid for themselves everytime I use them.

[MONKEYBOY1106]

I had the same idea, I'm just waiting for 6th to see how it will work. I hate not being able to plan until I see the new rules.

[Imperial Deceit]

If that does end up being the case I will certainly be adding stormbolters to just about everything. Two shots at 12", and you can charge, and you still get your bonus attack? For 3 bloody points! You would be a fool not to...

[Red Fury]

When you can have FC available I would always choose more PW attack vs more shooting and fewer LC attacks. Since the HG have a built in priest, I'd go with PWs and BPs. The S5 PW attacks are equal to fewer S5 attacks with rerolls.

The shooting against a standard 10 man marine unit (the most common opponent around) is pretty useless whether your HG gets 5 pistol shots or 9 shots. Let's just drop the priest from the equation since he is the same regardless:

 

1 Turn of shooting and assault:

4x HG + BP + PW = .444 unsaved wounds shooting (say 0) + 5.33 unsaved wounds in assault (say 5) for a total of 5 dead MEQ (+ whatever the priest can manage) Maximum of 16 PW attacks

4x HG + SB + LC = .889 unsaved wounds shooting (say 1) + 5.33 unsaved wounds in assault (say 5) for a total of 6 dead MEQ (+ whatever the priest can manage) Maximum of 12 LC attacks

 

Is the .444 extra dead marine worth spending 12 points on, I do not think so. That 12 points can pay for a melta gun, or the upgrade to a PF, or nearly another PW someplace else.

And if you plan on standing and shooting for a few rounds instead of assaulting, then you are obviously missing out on the most killy aspect of the unit, assault.

 

Against lower T opponents, PWs get even better. Against Higher T opponents, LC get better. Against 5+ save opponents the SB are really good, but if there are a bunch of 5+ guys, there will be a crap ton of them and an extra shot won't really help to thin the horde.

 

Could you add a SB to every guy with a PF or TH? Sure. But add up all the points and think of what else you could have bought instead.

[appiah4]

Is the .444 extra dead marine worth spending 12 points on, I do not think so. That 12 points can pay for a melta gun, or the upgrade to a PF, or nearly another PW someplace else.

And if you plan on standing and shooting for a few rounds instead of assaulting, then you are obviously missing out on the most killy aspect of the unit, assault.

 

Yes it is.

 

Because, basically, killing half a marine a round is around 3 dead marines a game, which is 39 to 50 points worth - it makes itself back easily.

 

Moreover, while I am NOT planning on standing and shooting, there will be inevitable occasions where the best I can do is move 12" and shoot 24" - which I WILL be able to do with those 12 points.

 

One last thing you should consider: Even if I AM assaulting, I am only marginally less effective against anything that's T3-, but significantly better at wounding T5+, which is a great boost, since MEQ can easily slaughter T3- in combat anyway.

 

I think you miss the point entirely.

 

If you want a Meltagun in there, go ahead and take it. But a single meltagun in a dedicated anti-infantry unit for 10 points is more of a waste than 4 storm bolters. Will you waste your killy potential to try taking out enemy tanks? I'm sure you do, and you should, have better choices for that. I won't go into the whole specialist vs generalist unit build debate, but let this be said: If you are kitting a unit out with anti heavy infantry weapons, the meltagun will be much less useful and situationary than a load of storm bolters.

[DominicJ]

Under 5th, that assault weapons can assault afterwards is a pretty minor advantage compared with move and shoot at range.

 

A marine squad moving across the board stomp some tau or guard loses three turns shooting with bolt guns.

If they had stormbolters, they'd have shot the squishy guard to death.

[Red Fury]

Yes it is.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion man. ;)

 

If you want a Meltagun in there, go ahead and take it. But a single meltagun in a dedicated anti-infantry unit for 10 points is more of a waste than 4 storm bolters.

Well, you're not going to be able to pop a transport with a storm bolter..... (manybe in 6th)

 

Under 5th, that assault weapons can assault afterwards is a pretty minor advantage compared with move and shoot at range

Storm bolters are assault weapons... and you can assault after firing. they just don't count as a ccw in combat.

 

A marine squad moving across the board stomp some tau or guard loses three turns shooting with bolt guns.

If they had stormbolters, they'd have shot the squishy guard to death.

If you want to try and out shoot Tau or guard, well, good luck brother.

 

 

Hey if you want to slap on some Storm Bolters and have some fun, go for it! I am not trying to stop you. I was just making the other side of the argument which I still stand by:

add up all the points and think of what else you could have bought instead.

It depends on who you play against too. If you regular opponent plays orks, or non mech IG or Tua, or Nids even, then the Storm Bolters would be more useful than for somebody who plays mostly tournaments and faces T4 marines 9 out of 10 times.

[appiah4]

Yes it is.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion man. ;)

 

If you want a Meltagun in there, go ahead and take it. But a single meltagun in a dedicated anti-infantry unit for 10 points is more of a waste than 4 storm bolters.

Well, you're not going to be able to pop a transport with a storm bolter..... (manybe in 6th)

 

Under 5th, that assault weapons can assault afterwards is a pretty minor advantage compared with move and shoot at range

Storm bolters are assault weapons... and you can assault after firing. they just don't count as a ccw in combat.

 

A marine squad moving across the board stomp some tau or guard loses three turns shooting with bolt guns.

If they had stormbolters, they'd have shot the squishy guard to death.

If you want to try and out shoot Tau or guard, well, good luck brother.

 

 

Hey if you want to slap on some Storm Bolters and have some fun, go for it! I am not trying to stop you. I was just making the other side of the argument which I still stand by:

add up all the points and think of what else you could have bought instead.

It depends on who you play against too. If you regular opponent plays orks, or non mech IG or Tua, or Nids even, then the Storm Bolters would be more useful than for somebody who plays mostly tournaments and faces T4 marines 9 out of 10 times.

 

 

Well, I don't want to come across as being an arrogant prick but, not, it's not. Those 4 SBs are worth 12 points and in two rounds of shooting they kill an extra marine on average; they make their points back in 2 rounds, so they are therefore more than likely to prove themselves worth the points.

 

And yes I won't pop transports with Storm Bolters but if I was relying on an elite anti-infantry unit to pop transports I would probably be in a world of trouble. I have anough heavy and long range weapons for that.

 

Also, incidentally, 4 Storm Bolters for 12 pts will kill more marines in a rounds than 1 meltagun. Do the math. That's not even considering the extra 12" range.

[The Holy Heretic]

The stormbolter is great..

 

However, when you're already able to hand out S4 hits like candy, the overall effect is rather lackluster. Adding melta or plasma on the other hand, adds a whole other capability to a squad. And this versatility is more likely to win you the game.

 

Thats my opinion anyway :thanks:

[DominicJ]

Red Fury

My point was you will kill far more in the turns you move and shoot at range than you will in the turn you shoot and assault, well, except with "proper" assault weapons like shotguns or Angelus boltguns

 

Holy

Very True

I make much the same argument against up gunning Storm Ravens.

With the Caveat that a captain is a lot more survivable

[Tamwulf]

I'm basing my opinions off of 5th Edition...

 

There are only a possible six turns of shooting in a regular game of 40K. There are 12 possible close combat phases. Once you get stuck into close combat, that Storm Bolter becomes useless.

 

I've never killed 0.444 of a Space Marine before, and I know I've never dealt 0.444 wounds to a Space Marine and had that carry over to the next round.

 

I do know that more shots = more failed saves, but the sheer amount of shots that it takes cannot be made up for by taking 3-4 extra Storm Bolters on 3-4 squads, and I'm especially not too keen on losing a plasma pistol/infernus pistol on my Assault Sergeants for an extra attack. These guys are going to have even fewer shots anyways, as they will either be Deep Striking or in a transport, and their entire goal is to get into close combat ASAP.

 

Continuing the 5th Edition Theme, a Storm Bolter takes the slot of other high strength/low AP weapons that can pop armor, wound on 2+, and ignore armor saves.

 

Storm Bolters work in a Grey Knights army because they can make them strength 5 for a very cheap amount of points. Might as well have just given the entire GK codex S5 SB's, as I don't think I've ever seen a squad without it.

 

THIS IS ALL BASED ON 5TH EDITION META, AND WILL CHANGE WITH 6TH. We haven't seen enough of the actual rules or how assault works yet to make any kind of educated statements about SB's and how effective they will be in the shooting phase.

[Emperors Immortals]

while i do favoue SB when possible, and dont have time to read the thread properly, im not sure the effects of ID and armour saves are covered right. Melta killls MEQ outright, with no save, that makes it more efficient at killing then the SB, an HG w/ LC,s and SB has helped against tau n gaurd, its not as good as +1A in CC vs. nids and orks IMO.

[appiah4]

while i do favoue SB when possible, and dont have time to read the thread properly, im not sure the effects of ID and armour saves are covered right. Melta killls MEQ outright, with no save, that makes it more efficient at killing then the SB, an HG w/ LC,s and SB has helped against tau n gaurd, its not as good as +1A in CC vs. nids and orks IMO.

 

Maybe you should read the rest of the thread. Math says otherwise. 4 Storm Bolters are better at killing MEQ through weight of fire than a single Meltagun, at range. If you will go with 4 Meltaguns, that's another thing completely, and 40 pts vs 12 pts.