Aleax Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Hi. IMHO, everything the Emperor allies with, DA will ally with. Now do the Emperor will ally with Orks, that's probably the question, but my explanation here is that there are different levels of "fellowship", and Tyranids are a big no, more so than Orks. Also Orks tribes may be basically manipulated, for example ally with one tribe to fight another, and the day after, ally with another tribe to fight this tribe. And so on, for example. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HJL Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 im excited about using my Chaos with proper demons again! ive missed the mighty bloodthirster. i suppose that just because you can do something doesn't mean you should, also youll find that the allies are very restricted on how they can buff one another depending on how closely allied they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Hoots, like the Scout idea, but remember, most cover is becoming only 5+, so a Bolster Defenses in most things other than hard ruins is only going to take the save to 4+. Keep in mind that due to the new ruleset, we are very likely going to see some changes to the way special characters work, do Telion may or may not give the cover increase when all is said and done (or he could give even better). Remember, just because it's titled Allies doesn't mean you are actually talking and hatching battle plans, the lowest level of Allies (which is where the Xenos stuff should be located for DA) likely has a negative impact on performance... There've been several suggestions that you may have to roll off for each unit on the table to see if they remain pinned that turn or not for units from very disagreeable parties (such as Orks for DA). These Allies do not represent a bunch of hunky-dorey crap between two groups, but likely just a "Hey, those Orks are already fighting the Tyranids over there, let's take this group and come back and kill those green bastards if they manage to make it. If we can take a couple or more of them things out in the process because the plasma cannons get 'screwed up' a little and take some of them down, well, I won't cry over those filthy things." The story can be as interesting as you want it to be, or you can imagine some kumbaya moments if you'd rather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Allies = we can use all of those models that we didn't get in our codex, and that we really want to paint in various Dark Angels Colors. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 From what the latest rumours are saying, the only difference between the "Alliance Levels" are: Battle Brothers: Good can join each others units with IC's and cast psychic powers as if they were friendly. Allies of convienance: Cant join units or cast friendly powers Desperate Allies: Have to roll if within 6" of an allied unit. if they roll a 1, they cannot do anything. Necrons Allies:no battle brothers. allies of conveniance with chaos marines, gery knights (!!), tau and orcs. cant ally with deamons, any eldar or nids. all the rest are desperate allies. Desperate allies with Templars and Blood Angels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpnightsend Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 I'm all for the idea of using allies to represent awesome units i have fluff for but not existent rules for. I have a story written for a mortis dreadnought special character and a painted contemptor to go with it. Now i plan on running it as bjorn the fel handed. Hes painted like my DA, the main army will be my DA, and his fluff is that hes from my DA chapter. Its just an opportunity to be more fluffy on the table. as for literal allies, as in other armies actually working with me, like you guys i am a bit skeptical. But its believable, at least for other imperial forces Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unforgiven2544 Posted June 25, 2012 Author Share Posted June 25, 2012 Because I have been expressing my love for the Unforgiven for quite some time, I will be able to field my models as unforgiven, or: Consecrators = Space Wolves Angels of Vengeance = Black Templars Angels of Redemption = Blood Angels Disciples of Caliban = White Scars/Vanilla Angels of Absolution = Ultramarines/Vanilla They all have 1HQ & 2 Troops + extras, and can also function as legal DA Builds as well My friends think they need to stage an intervention. ... Maybe they are right. Very Respectfully, --Unforgiven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Anders Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 From what the latest rumours are saying, the only difference between the "Alliance Levels" are: Battle Brothers: Good can join each others units with IC's and cast psychic powers as if they were friendly. Allies of convienance: Cant join units or cast friendly powers Desperate Allies: Have to roll if within 6" of an allied unit. if they roll a 1, they cannot do anything. Necrons Allies:no battle brothers. allies of conveniance with chaos marines, gery knights (!!), tau and orcs. cant ally with deamons, any eldar or nids. all the rest are desperate allies. Desperate allies with Templars and Blood Angels Well this is gonna ruin me and my friend's plan for DA/BT team up in games.......... crap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJedi Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Maybe we could come up with some common names for the units we might take. For example: Lion's Wrath Squad - BA Death Company Master Apothecary - Sang Priest Librarium Brotherhood Squad - Power Armored Grey Knights Knights of the Order - Sternguard Squad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpnightsend Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Maybe we could come up with some common names for the units we might take. For example: Lion's Wrath Squad - BA Death Company Master Apothecary - Sang Priest Librarium Brotherhood Squad - Power Armored Grey Knights Knights of the Order - Sternguard Squad I like that a lot. I would personally expand knights of the order to be vanguard veterans too. Picking from all other Special Character Chaplains, how would you guys represent asmodai? Im thinking of using cassius' rules... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaeton Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Just a few ideas: DA + BA = 30 deathwing terminators with FNP because of Sanguinary Priest DA + IG = 50 - men platoon with 4++ because of Azrail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 I think DA can have IG and SoB allies without violating fluff. And why not use another book's rules in a "counts as" role? Brother-captain led GKTs as inner circle deathwing? Plus a rifleman (which we should have anyway?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajax Tlamunus Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 One widely quoted Bedouin adage holds "I against my brother, my brothers and I against my cousins, then my cousins and I against strangers." The maxim signifies a hierarchy of loyalties based on proximity of kinship that runs from the family through the tribe, and even, in principle at least, to an entire linguistic group against all outsiders. Examples of such a mentality can be found in insular cultures across the span of human history, from the Plains Indians, to the Scots, to the steppe nomads of Asia. I see no reason it wouldn't apply to the Imperium of Man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 march10K, I agree with you, but considering some of the rumors about the weaponry (with regards to types of power weapons), it makes me very wary of planning anything with regards to counts-as. Why should you be able to counts-as Necrons, Tau or Grey Knights when it sounds like you may no longer be able to counts-as one type of power weapon for another. Especially if people start being :)-ers about the weapons thing, I'd be liable to say "Well, if my axe as a power sword offends you so, then I say Nay to your counts-as Necron Mechanicum, seeing as my counts as is a LOT less off model-wise than yours are." If weapons are going to be that visually picky, then it could signal the end of counts-as in general as the operating mode of 40K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LidlessPraetor Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 then it could signal the end of counts-as in general as the operating mode of 40K. We can only hope... How many goats, cows, chickens, doves, etc. do I have to sacrifice for ^this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 march10K, I agree with you, but considering some of the rumors about the weaponry (with regards to types of power weapons), it makes me very wary of planning anything with regards to counts-as. Why should you be able to counts-as Necrons, Tau or Grey Knights when it sounds like you may no longer be able to counts-as one type of power weapon for another. Especially if people start being :)-ers about the weapons thing, I'd be liable to say "Well, if my axe as a power sword offends you so, then I say Nay to your counts-as Necron Mechanicum, seeing as my counts as is a LOT less off model-wise than yours are." If weapons are going to be that visually picky, then it could signal the end of counts-as in general as the operating mode of 40K. I think you misunderstand my usage of "counts as." There's no codex listing for an "inner circle deathwing squad," therefore no WYSIWYG fail. In this sense, "counts as" means something more like "in terms of fluff/storycrafting represents." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 We can only hope... How many goats, cows, chickens, doves, etc. do I have to sacrifice for ^this? Why in the world would you want that? It would take us back to having all stock models, little conversion work, uninteresting opportunities, etc. I mean, I can see denying Coke can Drop pods, wooden block tanks and glass bottle flyers, but why deny someone the ability to play Mechanicum as Necrons or Space Slann as Tyranids when the models they are using fill approximately the same space and are pretty easily distinguishable based on a quick run down, or as I have, easily distinguished "all halberds are Thunder Hammers, because obviously I can't have halberds"? Even kit-bashing would become a No-no, because someone could argue that your Assault Squad are an illegal squad of Death Company because you used BA DC parts on what you wanted to simply be "a little more interesting" DA Assault Marines? march10k, I see what you mean, but as I said, if you aren't following the modeling restriction on weapons (or anything else really) exactly, your squads could instantly become unusable simply because of lack of visual recognition for wargear... All of the sudden a converted power flail and lacking a psychic hood means your hours spent conversions for your "Inner Circle Deathwing Librarians" can't be fielded as GK... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LidlessPraetor Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 It all depends on your personal perspective I think. If you're using count-as to justify modeling/painting a force that doesn't exist on the table but you dig the fluff of, go for it. That doesn't bother me near as much as using counts-as to codex hop just because of a presumed weakness of your chosen army's book. Or even worse, modelling an army (I won't mention who/where it happened) to be half space wolf and half blood angel. Oh and by the way, the same exact army can stand in as a vanilla build if they want it to. Lame, lame and even more lame. Man up, stick to a list and go for it. Last thing I'm going to say on it, to not derail the thread: Kit bashing, unique model(s), even coke can proxies: all okay with me. Codex hopping -> I won't even play against the list, I'd rather just spend my evening painting instead... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleDV8 Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 We will be Battle Brothers with BT, BA, IG and SM. Battle Brothers: Good can join each others units with IC's and cast psychic powers as if they were friendly. Allies of convienance: Cant join units or cast friendly powers Eldar , GK, Sisters, SW and Tau. Desperate Allies: Have to roll if within 6" of an allied unit. if they roll a 1, they cannot do anything. Necrons and Orks. From here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unforgiven2544 Posted June 26, 2012 Author Share Posted June 26, 2012 It all depends on your personal perspective I think. If you're using count-as to justify modeling/painting a force that doesn't exist on the table but you dig the fluff of, go for it. That doesn't bother me near as much as using counts-as to codex hop just because of a presumed weakness of your chosen army's book. Or even worse, modelling an army (I won't mention who/where it happened) to be half space wolf and half blood angel. Oh and by the way, the same exact army can stand in as a vanilla build if they want it to. Lame, lame and even more lame. Man up, stick to a list and go for it. Last thing I'm going to say on it, to not derail the thread: Kit bashing, unique model(s), even coke can proxies: all okay with me. Codex hopping -> I won't even play against the list, I'd rather just spend my evening painting instead... [Off Topic] I am am going to politely disagree with your stance on this issue. Considering the cost of our hobby, trying to get the most bang for your buck is a worthy goal. Considering there are fully 7 flavors of Astartes (Chaos, Vanilla, Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Black Templars, Space Wolves, Blood Angels) being able to play variants without having to spend hundreds of dollars on additional models and invest countless hours of painting just so that they are a different color. Being a fan of the fluff is one thing, but people who don't have the disposable income to purchase multiple armies should not be told to that they are doing it wrong. And if you would honestly have a problem with me if I set up my Disciples of Caliban army across the table from you and said "This is the Disciples of Caliban 6th Company. This guy counts as Khan. Everything is WYSIWYG" then I think that you rather painting would be better for both of us and our enjoyment of the hobby. No disrespect intended, but different people enjoy different things. [/Off Topic] I have several different unforgiven chapters. All painted differently, and all designed to be used with a different codex books. Some models I have built because I think they look cool. I have a storm Raven for my Dark Angels because I think it looks cool. Same thing for my Thunderfire cannon. I have a storm talon for my Disciples of Caliban. Now I can use them via allies, but that wasn't their original intent. And a "Combined Arms" theory of taking my Dark Angels, backed up with an allied detachment of my Disciples of Caliban as "Khan-Flavored Vanilla" would be interesting to me. (Ravenwing Bikers and Vanilla Bikers all in one force seems fluffy and entertaining) Very Respectfully, --Unforgiven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Exactly Unforgiven2544. It's up to the individual how they build and play their armies. If allies are in the Rulebook then so be it use them to your advantage why not? Each to their own – the 40K universe is a vast place :lol:. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lost_angel Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Couple more ideas. How about an allied MOTF with scouts and t/homer along with 2 x Rifleman - it's about time we had an official way to use our Mortis Dreads. Kinda stoked with the idea we can take a viable librarian these days too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajax Tlamunus Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 I'll also confess that the idea of an entire squad of converted Gnoblars or Night Goblins, fielded using Gretchin rules from Codex: Orks, to represent the Watchers in the Dark taking the field just makes me smile. Heresey, I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon-Fodder Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 I am so unconvinced by this. Looks like GW slip to me. I see that top of the dark eldar ally list is eldar......I thought they were the worst of worst enemies? Like fallen and unforgiven.....just aint gonna happen. wouldn't be the first time GW website has made mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Chaplain Nemiel Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 I am so unconvinced by this. Looks like GW slip to me. I see that top of the dark eldar ally list is eldar......I thought they were the worst of worst enemies? Like fallen and unforgiven.....just aint gonna happen. wouldn't be the first time GW website has made mistakes. You are quite wrong there...the eldar and dark eldar ways of life is basically just 2 different ways how to deal with their fall, they still are one race! Also they would ally with each other MORE likely than with any other esp. if harlequins are involved, you know they dont have to like each other...just read eldar/dark eldar codex, enough references there! But i agree some alliance combinations there are kinda weird...i guess i go for orks, the term greenwing has another meaning then :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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