6th ED and How We See It Changing Our Lists

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Val, that past paragraph is amazing "strategery".

 

WLK

 

I don't know about "amazing", but thanks WLK. Just wait until I really get going and I rewrite my Army Building Guide from the ground up. I'm looking forward to taking a fresh look at the game, and at Space Wolves.

 

Best Regards,

 

V

 

the reason I was so impressed because this reminded me of the challange shenanigans i used to pull when playing Warhammer Fantasy and mopping us the local scene with pink High Elf Spearmen.

 

I remembered the correct use of a challange can completely turn a fight around, but hadnt put that thought into the new 40k rules yet.

 

so yea, your paragraph gave me a memory flash of the past.

 

WLK

[Khine]

what are peoples thoughts on a WG with a Power axe and Power Maul? Would you get the +1 attack still for having two close combat weapons?

 

Way i see it working is Combat one, use the Maul and deal a successful unsaved wound so that if the model survives they are reduced to I1, then you pull out your power axe attacks in the next round of combat to negate the armour save. if the enemy model has I1 attack anyway then just use the power axe. Granted the WG won't have a shooting attack but it could be a really good 'character' killer.

 

*edit* that is assuming that concussive is reduced Initiative.

[Valerian]

what are peoples thoughts on a WG with a Power axe and Power Maul? Would you get the +1 attack still for having two close combat weapons?

 

Way i see it working is Combat one, use the Maul and deal a successful unsaved wound so that if the model survives they are reduced to I1, then you pull out your power axe attacks in the next round of combat to negate the armour save. if the enemy model has I1 attack anyway then just use the power axe. Granted the WG won't have a shooting attack but it could be a really good 'character' killer.

 

Khine, since points are always a factor, you have to balance effectiveness with efficiency. Your proposal might work, but will it work enough to make the investment worthwhile? In my experience, if it requires a certain set of perfectly orchestrated events to work out the way you plan, then it likely will never come to fruition. Instead, focus on designing models/units that will work out "most of the time", regardless of the circumstances, rather than "if you can pull it off." Don't forget that you have a living, breathing, and more importantly, a thinking enemy across the table who will be trying his/her damnedest to prevent you from pulling it off.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

[eyeslikethunder]

Now, however, we enter a new era where we have a dilemma of Rock > Scissors > Paper > Rock, etc. I believe there will be many additional factors that must be taken into consideration when making this selection, than there was in the past. Foremost, it is important to remember that the Power Fist (and Thunderhammer) will still be Sx2, and AP2 - basically the same capability as before. However, they can be singled out in combat by enemy characters (including enemy Squad Sergeants) in an assault. If that enemy has a Power Weapon (or Lightning Claw, or Power Maul, etc.), then he'll likely crush your poor Power Fist armed WGL long before he ever gets to swing. He'll be the Paper to your Rock. However, you might need that Rock to help you deal with other threats that the Rock is designed to excel against (the Scissors units of 40k).

 

Here, my pack-mates, we Space Wolves have one huge advantage - none of our units (bar Long Fangs) actually come with stock Sergeants/Characters. In a pack of Grey Hunters, we can put a Power Fist on a regular Hunter who still provides the unit with a "hidden" Fist. He gets less attacks than a Sergeant/WGL would, but he still gets two solid attacks on the charge/counterattack, which might be just enough to get by with. If you don't think you really need the Fist, then that model would do well to get a Power Axe, and get the 3 attacks at S5 on the charge/counterattack. Then, if you feel like adding a WGL, you can equip him to survive challenges better by going for a Power Weapon or a Wolf Claw (or even a Power Maul, if you aren't concerned about the reduced AP). Additionally, hardly anyone else out there can put their Squad Leaders in TDA. You want to almost guarantee challenge victories? Throw an WGL in Terminator Armour with a Storm Shield and Wolf Claw to lead your units. Your opponent doesn't feel up to the challenge? No problem, you can sit this turn out then. Sorry you wasted the points on that upgrade that you don't even get to use.

 

Okay, sorry, I'm starting to ramble.

 

Valerian

 

As the closest model defines the unit save throw in shooting until he dies. So There is also possibilities there for Terminator SGTs to save a few wounds against ap3 guns. 2+ saves also combine nicely with wolf standards in CC

[chezzie]

Then another rune priest casts foreboding on that unit which raises their BS back to normal in overwatch

 

By the cards that's only possible if the other RP is in the same unit.

 

 

It's a blessing that targets the RP and then applies to the unit he's with, so afaict we can't use the RP to buff whoever we want, sorry :thanks:

 

D.

[Orphus]

So, how will this new addition change my list/wishlist? In short it won't. Yeah rules/strengths/things will change I understand that but I'm quite confident I'm going to stick to what I want. Maybe my lack of concern is down to my army structure (ok, dread nonwithstanding).

[Howling]

.....

You want to almost guarantee challenge victories? Throw an WGL in Terminator Armour with a Storm Shield and Wolf Claw to lead your units. Your opponent doesn't feel up to the challenge? No problem, you can sit this turn out then. Sorry you wasted the points on that upgrade that you don't even get to use.

 

Okay, sorry, I'm starting to ramble.

 

Valerian

 

 

Actually you wouldn't even need the Storm Shield....if the opponent has something that ignores your 2+ armor it's VERY likely to have Initiative 1 (at least that seems to be the new drawback for AP2...) and thus you will strike first with your wolfclaw, most likely killing him before he gets to strike you.

 

If he has something that strikes at initiative (before you?) it's pretty likely not able to pierce your 2+ armor....

 

So hey, cheap challenge winning wolf guard option, I like it. Just too bad they won't be able to ride around in their rhinos using this...

[Simo429]

Something will have to change in order to hopefully afford flak for my missiles, prob a couple of less grey hunters across the army unless its a big points increase

[eyeslikethunder]

Considering whether I need to change my TWL to dswanik build

 

TH, BoR , WC, RA to help with challenges

 

 

Something will have to change in order to hopefully afford flak for my missiles, prob a couple of less grey hunters across the army unless its a big points increase

Do they cost extra ? or just need more LF's

[Simo429]

The picture of the rule book says that they are optional upgrades so I think it will have to be paid for

[skeletoro]

So... a kickass foot-slogging GH pack might look like this?

 

10x GH (for the free plasma)

2x plasma guns

Standard, Wulfen, Power Fist

TDA WG /w combi-plasma and power weapon

 

..248 pts. That's 3x plasma (one turn per game, anyway), fist for MC etc, and some nice WG dueling skillz. Would you trim anything out of this pack to reduce the points cost, and if so, what?

[eyeslikethunder]

The picture of the rule book says that they are optional upgrades so I think it will have to be paid for

have you got a link?

[fjgarces]

So... a kickass foot-slogging GH pack might look like this?

 

10x GH (for the free plasma)

2x plasma guns

Standard, Wulfen, Power Fist

TDA WG /w combi-plasma and power weapon

 

..248 pts. That's 3x plasma (one turn per game, anyway), fist for MC etc, and some nice WG dueling skillz. Would you trim anything out of this pack to reduce the points cost, and if so, what?

 

Taking off the GH power fist and giving a Power Axe, give the power fist to the WG.

 

Or if with 2x plasmaguns you have enough, give your termie a pair of wolfclaws for chopping dueling <_< (and to have a nice mini)

[Simo429]

The picture of the rule book says that they are optional upgrades so I think it will have to be paid for

have you got a link?

http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/

[skeletoro]

Hmm, napkin math time. A TDA WG with a power weapon only stands a 13% chance of killing a TDA WG with power fist. The PF WG stands a better than even chance of winning the duel outright (with stalemate as the next most likely scenario).

 

If the TDA WG PW duelist goes up against something with a 3+ save or worse, though, they'll do really well. It's just interesting that the TDA WG PW duelist tactic is somewhat unstable, game theoretically.

 

This is assuming that my napkin math is correct, which I by no means guarantee :whistling:

[eyeslikethunder]

The picture of the rule book says that they are optional upgrades so I think it will have to be paid for

have you got a link?

http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/

thx

[skeletoro]

Taking off the GH power fist and giving a Power Axe, give the power fist to the WG.

 

Or if with 2x plasmaguns you have enough, give your termie a pair of wolfclaws for chopping dueling :whistling: (and to have a nice mini)

If you give your WG the power fist though, they're liable to get duelled to death, right?

 

What kinds of duelists fare well against the following WG? Here's my guesses:

 

Power armour + power fist: Power armour and Power sword or Frost weapon + pistol or pair of claws. TDA + PW and storm shield does OK too and is 5 points cheaper than the PA version)

Power armour + PW, FW or LC: TDA + anything. Power weapons are better than fists by a smidgen, but as your opponent is somewhat unlikely to kill you, loadout isn't a big deal.

Terminator armour + PW, FW or LC: Terminator armour + PF. You probably won't die (so initiative matters little) but a PF will kill him back.

Terminator armour + power fist: TDA, Power fist (or thunder hammer, if you're feeling fluffy) and a storm shield. Alternatively, skimp on points and take PA + PF, putting you on an even footing with your opponent at 5 points less :o

Terminator armour + fist/storm shield: I think this is the most powerful combo. I'm not sure anything compares favourably in a WG duel to this... any takers?

 

EDIT: This makes me look at Arjac in a whole new light.

 

TLDR:

Power weapons (and lightning claws) are good against power fist power armour guys. However, they're decidedly bad against termies. If you want to beat termies in a duel too, you need a power fist (or similar). If you want to survive encounters with *other* power fist users, you'll want a storm shield. If you've bought a storm shield, terminator armour costs negative 5 points. Yay.

 

Lastly, getting back to the quote that started this random musing, fjgarces, I think I agree about the PF on the TDA WG. Although it doesn't counter enemy power-fist users, it itself isn't hard countered by power swords. It's a toss up between the extra plasma and having a storm shield though. Especially if you're foot-slogging and getting shot at, and doing plenty of shooting yourself. Though it really depends on the meta, I think!

[Jonny Wolf]

Concusive = reduced to init 1 next round.

[skeletoro]

Jonny, is that after a hit or after a wound?

[Khine]

Also, any news on how Chainfists are being run? Ie .. are they going to be rending or just have the 2d6 pen against vehicles and count as a PF in combat?

[eyeslikethunder]

they are ap1 khine

so +2 to damage result

[DV8]

Having gotten my hands on the rulebook, I was basically too excited to sleep and read the rules portion of it front to back last night. Having skimmed quickly through this thread, I find that there are some issues that I feel need addressing as it will heavily impact how you guys approach 6th Edition.

 

I have the following questions for my list based on rumors:

1. are the old powers still effective (need to read full book)

2. Which of the new powers will fit my list best?

3. Which new powers are utter rubbish?

4. how will I work the warlord rule to the best effect?

5. How will beasts/cavalry work? Is it 3D6 for charge range?

6. Drop Pods Still effective? Disembark change anything?

 

Old powers are still effective, new powers can be pretty good depending on your army. There really aren't any bad powers, obviously some pair better with some armies/units than others, but the kicker is that it's random, much like Fantasy. However, UNLIKE Fantasy, duplicates of powers can be had across multiple psykers (so 3 Rune Priests could all have Psychic Power A, where in Fantasy only one would be allowed and the other two get to pick new powers, thus increasing the odds of you getting the power you need).

 

What this means is that unless you specifically take one character that has enough powers to guarantee you get all 6 powers (to get the ones you want), relying on getting a particular psychic power is a no-go. They're neat to have, but don't factor it into your strategy.

 

Same goes for Warlord. Some good stuff, some jank (specifically for Space Wolves). But because it's random, it's best not to base a strategy around it. It'll be nice when you roll that ability you want/need, but other times you'll roll something garbage and you'll epic-face palm (for instance, one ability gives your Warlord plus any unit he joins Counter-Attack when in your deployment zone..lulz...)

 

Disembarking from transports is relatively the same (re: you can't charge out unless it has assault ramps), HOWEVER there are some issues that need to be resolved.

 

Units can no longer disembark from a transport that has moved faster than 6", and since Drop Pods enter at cruising speed (7"-12"), technically guys inside can't get out (and are thus destroyed). I'm sure they'll FAQ that real fast as it's a glaring oversight. That or the Drop Pod's "embarked units must immediately disembark when the Drop Pod enters play" (paraphrased) over-rules the BBB (which it should). Minor issue, don't sweat it.

 

Also, units can disembark up to a max of 6" away from an access point, meaning that Drop Pods, coupled with that 6" disembarkation distance, will really allow you to land those Meltaguns or other weapons at just the ranges you need (and don't forget pre-measuring is now allowed).

 

Assumptions:

1. my 2xlas cannon 3xmissles long fang packs should be good to go

2. GH's get a boost even with 24 inch moving and shooting bolters, counter attack and overwatch(even if overwatch is either or with CA)

3. Rune Priests should be even more valuable with negating and performing psychic stuff

 

Long Fangs are still a solid choice, HOWEVER there is an issue that needs to be addressed that I will bring up below.

 

Grey Hunters become FANTASTIC, especially with the Allies rules and Brothers in Arms. Rapid Fire is indeed always 1 shot at max range, 2 shots at half range, move or not. Overwatch and Counter-Attack stack, so they become the ultimate defensive unit in the game. Lucky if you can get the right Divination spell to let them Snapshot at BS (which also means they can take out fliers really easily), but don't always count on it.

 

Also, there are some rediculous combinations that you can pull. Pedro Kantor using his 12" buff aura to give all your Grey Hunters +1 Attack (that's right boys and girls, 4 attacks charge or be charged), or taking Sanguinary Priests to give your army Feel No Pain.

 

And Rune Priests are always a solid choice. More on that later.

 

Haven't rune priests been nerfed? Don't they only stop psychic powers on a 4 up if they are within 6 inches?

 

Rune Priests Null Rods work just the same. Stop powers on a 4+ within 24". If the power goes through, there is a new rule called Deny the Witch. Any model/unit targeted by a Psychic Power negates it on a 6+. If you have a Psyker within 6", he can instead attempt to nullify it, and he gets a bonus, that being +1 if he is of equal or lesser Mastery level than the enemy Psyker casting the power (so 5+, and +2 if he is greater Mastery level than the enemy Psyker casting the power (4+).

 

Oh, is there a special ability you need to do AA? I just assumed you took lots of big guns (I haven't read the 5e rules let alone 6e ;))

 

It is rumoured so, since we did not have the AA rules in 5th edition. Since ordinary big guns will need 6's to hit the flyers, we are speculating that dedicated AA battery will be hitting them at its own Ballistic Skill.

 

Yes. Anything with Skyfire hits Flyers at BS, and everything else at Snap Fire (BS1)

 

So basically Acute Senses just got nerfed overall. That's kind of lame. Other stuff looks pretty good though.

 

So Frost Axes strike at Intiative, no - modifiers?

 

Night Fighting is entirely different, so Acute Senses has to be different.

 

Tank Hunter vs flyers - not sure.

 

However, if a unit...say...Long Fangs have missile launchers they now have access to Flakk ammo. S7 AP4 and has the Skyfire special rule which lets you shoot at your regular BS.

 

Tank Hunters allows you to reroll the dice for Armor Penetration, so you still need to hit them.

 

Also, and this is crucial here people.

 

Missile Launchers come standard with Frag and Krak. Flakk as stated is an upgrade, and it is only available to models that can specifically upgrade to Flakk.

 

That means Long Fangs still only have access to Krak and Frag until they FAQ who/what units have access to Flakk ammunition.

 

At which point of whose phase is Overwatch resolved? Before your enemy declares charges? After? After charge moves? Also, what is the limitation on Overwatch? If my Rune Priest has enough power points left over to fire a psychic power, could he do so in Overwatch? Will he benefit from CotS during OW if allowed to use a power?

 

Flakk missile - does it come standard or will it need to be purchased additionally as wargear?

 

Assault phase is like Fantasy now. Going unit by unit, you declare a charge, and the reaction (Overwatch) before any charge dice are rolled. Once Overwatch is resolved, charging unit rolls 2D6" and moves (it might fail the charge). A unit can only Overwatch once per Assault Phase.

 

And Flakk was addressed above. Right now I don't know if any unit that can actually upgrade it's Missile Launchers to have Flakk ammunition.

 

I'll be here all day, and I do have the rulebook on hand, so fire any questions off and I'll answer them as best I can, as soon as I can.

 

My general impressions:

 

Space Wolves have gotten really solid boosts in the new rules. Some major changes to the game mechanics will definitely affect the way we play the game (rules to Transports/vehicles especially changes Mech armies), but the core will always be our infantry.

 

Loganwing becomes a really strong list with the flexibility that he gives (Relentless is amazing for Long Fangs), and Grey Hunters form really solid core with Rapid Fire, Overwatch, and Counter-Attack.

 

Allies can really boost our army as well, since we count almost all Space Marines (not Grey Knights) and Imperial Guard amongst our Brothers in Arms. I'll be spending the day brainstorming shenanigans, but off the top of my head:

 

Pedro Kantor with his 12" +1 Attack Buff making Space Wolves rediculous in combat. Combo it with Logan's +1 Attack Howl to give your basic Grey Hunters 5 attacks apiece on the charge. Silly no?

 

Taking Mephiston for solid counter-attack, Death Company with Bolters (Relentless, Rage, Fast Vehicles). Sanguinary Priest can buff with Feel No Pain (5+, only Instant Death negates it) and +1 Strength on the charge.

 

Grey Knights, while we can't benefit from anything they bring or join their squads, taking Crowe and a squad or two of Purifiers gives us SOLID scoring Troops that just won't budge. Combo with Psybolt ammunition, Psycannons, and you can tear down vehicles by glancing to strip away Hull Points.

 

Keep in mind that AP1 gets +2 on the vehicle damage charge when rolling for Penetration, so a lucky shot with a Meltagun (or Rail Gun) can still instant-kill a Land Raider (Hull Point 4) if it rolls well enough. So don't count on vehicles being THAT much more survivable. If anything, they'll die a lot faster.

 

Imperial Guard, taking Astropaths/Masters of the Fleet to improve your Reserves or mess with your opponents (although with Reserves now 3+ all the time and Acute Senses allowing re-rolls for our Wolf Scouts, we don't really need Astropaths). However, you can take Guard Blob Squads (stupid, great home-base scoring guys) and for your heavy support back your Space Wolves up with a squadron of 3 Hydras. Dakkadakkadakka.

 

Until they redo the Black Templar book, you can abuse their points shenanigans and a squadron of Land Speeder Typhoons for 70 points apiece instead of 90.

 

I'll post more when my brain unfogs. I am so tired...

 

EDIT: Quick note, blast templates no longer halve strength against vehicles when the hole isn't over the body. So as long as your, say, Vindicator shell even touches a vehicle, you get a Strength 10 hit with 2D6 (pick highest) for Penetration. Also means that Guard become amazing at hunting armor with Medusas, Manticores and Demolishers.

 

Their Vendettas also took a huge hit, with Scout being a simple redeployment within 12" of where they were originally placed (so they get no benefit from having "moved"). The same applies for Baals, and since it's not a move anymore, they can't pop smoke.

 

 

DV8

[Iacton Qruze]

Pedro Kantor with his 12" +1 Attack Buff making Space Wolves rediculous in combat. Combo it with Logan's +1 Attack Howl to give your basic Grey Hunters 5 attacks apiece on the charge. Silly no?

 

Taking Mephiston for solid counter-attack, Death Company with Bolters (Relentless, Rage, Fast Vehicles). Sanguinary Priest can buff with Feel No Pain (5+, only Instant Death negates it) and +1 Strength on the charge.

 

Grey Knights, while we can't benefit from anything they bring or join their squads, taking Crowe and a squad or two of Purifiers gives us SOLID scoring Troops that just won't budge. Combo with Psybolt ammunition, Psycannons, and you can tear down vehicles by glancing to strip away Hull Points.

 

 

I had heard that your ally contingent can't include special characters. can you confirm one way or the other on that?

[DV8]

I had heard that your ally contingent can't include special characters. can you confirm one way or the other on that?

 

There is absolutely no restriction on what you can or cannot take. You are simply limited by the Allies matrix and armies that would be Brothers in Arms, Allies of Convenience, Desperate Allies, or Come Nigh the Apocalypse. They also specify that your Allied contingent must all come from one Codex, and it cannot be the same Codex as your parent list (so you cant take Space Wolves allied with Space Wolves).

 

The Allied FOC/contingent, for all intents and purposes, is a standalone "army" chosen from another book that follows all of that books special rules and shenanigans.

 

So you can take Crowe to unlock Purifiers Troops, Coteaz to unlock Henchment Troops, Draigo to unlock Paladin Troops, Modrak makes a solid choice for extra Terminator unit. Pedro and a unit of Sternguard could effectively give you up to 12 scoring units (6 Space Wolf units, 2 allied Troops combat squading, and 10 Sternguard combat squading).

 

 

DV8

[Iacton Qruze]

ouch... well, alright.

 

I'm eyeing a lot of ideas for allied boosts, just not sure what to take yet.