Brother Ambroz Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I think oblits won't be quite as useful anymore in the new world of flyers. Since flyers can only be hit on a 6+ I have a feeling we'll see a resurgence of havocs with MLs now that they can use flakk missles. I know I'll be building at least one squad of havocs with MLs and maybe a autocannon in there. Any thoughts? Edit: Might end up giving my dread a ML as well. Seems like a good choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Araziel Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I think oblits won't be quite as useful anymore in the new world of flyers. Since flyers can only be hit on a 6+ I have a feeling we'll see a resurgence of havocs with MLs now that they can use flakk missles. I know I'll be building at least one squad of havocs with MLs and maybe a autocannon in there. Any thoughts? Edit: Might end up giving my dread a ML as well. Seems like a good choice. I'm with you there. I want to make sure our Havoc's can have those missiles first, and then I'm going to start building. It wouldn't be a bad idea to take either an Aegis Defence Line or Bastion now either, upgraded with either Icarus Lascannon or Quadgun. Both have skyfire. Which leads to another point. If you get to 2k, you're FOC doubles. You can also take an additional Fortification, so there are ways around not taking Havocs. You can take two Bastions with either of the guns (I'd go for the Quad gun; less strength than the Lascannon, but more shots per turn and its twin-linked) and man them with CSM troop squads, making them hit on 3's. That leaves you free to take Oblit's to deal with anything else your opponent has on the table (remember, this edition, we're going to be able to take up to six squads of them, not three...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muskie Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Something tells me that we'll be seeing a lot of Abbaddon. I'm not sure why, but I have a gut feeling that he'll unlock Terminators as Troops when the new Codex hits. That was my prediction many months ago. I believe I even dubbed the subsequent build the "Leroy Jenkins" because you just charge straight ahead and scream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Araziel Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Something tells me that we'll be seeing a lot of Abbaddon. I'm not sure why, but I have a gut feeling that he'll unlock Terminators as Troops when the new Codex hits. That was my prediction many months ago. I believe I even dubbed the subsequent build the "Leroy Jenkins" because you just charge straight ahead and scream. I just can't see it being anybody other than him, and I'll just be really surprised if we don't have the option for Terminator army builds. I wonder who else will unlock what? I really, really hope that characters like Typhus and Khârn aren't needed for taking PMs and Zerkers as Troops respectively. That would suck, I want to have my own guys leading my force not some "counts as". If they keep just onething from the current Codex, it should be that all the God-worshipping cult units stay in the Troops section. Either that, or make it so your Warlord must have their Mark to make them Troops, otherwise they take up an Elite or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muskie Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I refuse to get too excited about any rules changes until I see the new Chaos codex and what the local stores/events choose to do with allies and house rules. My chaos space marines started out as allies to my orks back when 2nd edition came out. I kinda got them updated to 5th edition, but the orks are stuck in 2nd edition. Now with allies I may finally have incentive to update my orks, I have lots of unpainted models, too many. I collected a lot of Rogue Trader orks back in the day, I got about 100 painted circa 1995. I also started to collect minis and develop an army list plan for Imperial Armor Servants of Decay and of course I have an armies worth of plaguebearers, beasts of nurgle and nurglings I haven't been able to use much outside of the square based game. So allies if for no other reason than to dust off some painted figs is appealing to me. I won't be buying anything clever or anything at all. Just finally getting incentive to paint or unpack old models and use them. For allies in a 1500 point game, the standard size around here, you have to take one HQ and one Troop to have allies, right? I don't mind taking the troops, but Chaos HQ is expensive so taking a Demons HQ too may not be feasible at 1500 points, but Orks and Imperial Guard have low cost HQ. So although I'd like to get my nurglings and beasts back on the table, they may have to wait until bigger games. I think bigger games of 40K got more appealing. The second FOC at higher points was something people did locally anyway. You play with your buds and they bring two 1500 point armies, and you're 3000 points is two FOC too. I don't own the demons in space codex, but I own orks and guard. I just never got around to using them in 5th. Maybe in 6th edition being able to use a squad at a time instead of having to paint 1500 points will provide a kick in the pants. Many stores don't require armies to be painted anymore, but I hold myself to a higher standard, otherwise you never get anything painted. I never seem to actually play the game anyway. As for hypothesizing on how the rules will effect my army. My terminators are circa 2nd edition or rogue trader so mostly power axes, fists, and chain fists with a few power swords. I have more I can paint, but my ten man squad of Nurgle terminators just got more chaotic. Two wound terminators like mega nobz would be cool. I fear I may have to field my first ever chaos special character when the new codex comes out in order to run all nurgle. Bolter guns seem to be improved every edition. This is because marines come standard with them and marines are the cash cow. CSM also have bolters as do Plaguemarines so 100s of my models probably got a tiny bit better. I played in 2nd Edition when there were "to hit" modifiers so I have a lot of flamers lurking in the back, these may become more useful and my 'best' plaguemarine squad may become one flamer and one melta once again, rather than the two meltas that became necessary in 5th due to all the vehicles people crammed on to the table. I have a fair amount of powerfist champs, but visually I like variety so I have champs armed all sorts of ways including some with power axes. Plaguemarines fight last anyway so hitting a tiny bit harder might be worth it. Plaguemarines come with three grenades and I have a champ with melta bombs so he has four different grenades slapped to his utility belt. That dude may become more desirable. He has a power sword too. As I experimented with champs armed that way as opposed to the omni-present powerfist. Blight Grenades being defensive along with the fact Plaguemarines have bolters, bolt pistols, and knifes may make them even better, even with feel no pain being neutered some. Feel no pain was neutered because it was being spammed. Plaguemarines are expensive and I predict will be going back to Elite to be unlocked by the nurgle special character possibly. With all their gear and grenades and their ability to move and shoot 24" will become much more viable on foot perhaps. I've run the horde of power armor on foot. I even have the 20 model squad. I think those who desire bulk will be better served with IG allies or the upcoming cultists assuming 20+ model squad sizes survive. My dream of a sea of Nurglings will remain a dream unless the chaos demon codex is really friendly, surely Nurglings are Troops... One squad of ten might be fun, but deep striking has never been my preferred tactic, which along with desiring guns is why I don't play Demons in space. It is nice tactical squads, at least those in power armor in say the box set are getting a boost. I stripped some of my many missile launchers, but I can always paint another special weapons trooper. I've invested a lot of time in painting rank and file. That should pay off in 6th as I can just paint up some cool new fun models and my army should play fine and will be mostly legal out of the box. Defilers may get another kick at the can, predators with max guns (ie plus Havoc) might be fun to drive and shoot four weapons at over 24". A dakka pred might be cool, I got an unpainted pred and defiler, new in box. Dreadnoughts, at least non-insane dreadnoughts may become more popular for their anti-air capabilities. It would be nice if "Havoc" missile launchers get FAQ'ed to help against air support. If vehicles really are not all that anymore after being pretty much mandatory as in a sea of gun trucks, the infantry army might become viable. Whether it is with cheap bulk allies, or just massed moving and firing at reduced BS, it might be a nice change. It also may increase sales of certain kits which is what GW wants. I own all the models I may ever be able to paint in one lifetime, so am in no rush to buy more. I'll probably buy the box set as I like the little rule book and I play Chaos... The loyalists will likely not be traded away this time and just become bits. I'm not sure how my horde of orks fit into my plans but I'll definitely be painting some non-power armor guys, B&C may have to relax their policy with allies plus cultists coming to a Chaos army near you. Burna boys or some other cheap ork specialty units may be seeing duty in chaos armies though Imperial Guard Veterans as troops will be tough to beat until some other codices get updated. For my future CSM additions, I was planning on finally adding some speed and mobility and yet more non-Nurgle stuff so bikes and jump pack troops, especially if they too get a bit better due to rules changes may finally get painted and fielded. My winged demon prince is going to be harder to say "no" too. Edited to fix weirdness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Wow, Muskie, I think you got the same wall of text in there three times. Might want to edit your post down a little. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 the only thing am interested in right now is if the havock launchers is going to be made AA like all the other rocket launchers or are we goint to have to either run RL havocks or ally to get AA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 the only thing am interested in right now is if the havock launchers is going to be made AA like all the other rocket launchers or are we goint to have to either run RL havocks or ally to get AA. I doubt it. Typhoons and Cyclones don't get the Flak Missiles, so I doubt that Havocs will. Though that'd be cool for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearingtheword Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 It would be quite nice if Havoc Missile Launchers got to be AA but not gonna hold my breath on it. I'm hoping in the new 'dex that our LR and the rumoured new variant are classified as dedicated transports the way they have been for some of the loyalist armies (we don't have enough HS slots as it is), as our 'zerks are going to need to be placed in them in order to be able to assault (unless I am misunderstanding some of the rules on disembarking and assaulting that have been posted) out of vehicles, or they reclassify Rhinos and the like as assault which I don't see happening. I can kind of understand having a standard CSM squad jumping out of a rhino and spending a turn shooting but our specialty CC squads need to be able to get into H2h as quicky as possible. Or maybe 'zerks will get the "counter charge" USR in the new book to offset that or something? Who knows? Just some disjointed thoughts.... ~BtW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muskie Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Wow, Muskie, I think you got the same wall of text in there three times. Might want to edit your post down a little. . . My computer/browser is doing weird things. I can't seem to cut and paste. I'll see if I can fix that. That is the problem with typing out long rambling posts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Thinking back to the majority of discussions on the current CSM codex, they normally revolved around the heavy support options. In light of that, let us give a more detailed look at those options in the new codex. Obliterators +Lascannons are better now that they're AP2 and cover saves are 5+. - Drop in cover saves makes oblits less durable to incoming firepower. + Drop in cover saves means that oblits have more flexibility on where they can be deployed as they aren't as bound by cover. Vindicator + Again, AP2 = better tank busting. + Full S10 shots against armor as long as you touch target. + I believe that AV13 will be more durable against incoming fire. + Ability to move flat out to get closer quicker. - Still requires possession to shoot reliably. - Vulnerable to assault if not bubble wrapped. Havocs + Autocannons and missile launchers still viable anti tank weapons. + Drop in cover saves means that long range weapons can do more damage on average. - Weaker cover saves means you're more exposed to incoming firepower, including the common missile launcher or battle cannons. Predator (assuming AC/LC build) + Autocannons and lascannons are both solid AT weapons. + Again, less cover saves on targets = more damage. - Still just as easy to shake. Defiler (assuming 2x DCCW build) + Rumor has it 4 hull points makes it very durable. + Battlecannon is more damaging against armor with full S8 shots + Yet again, decreased cover saves and increased damage. + Decreased cover saves doesn't impact typical defiler durability as they rarely got saves to begin with. Those are my initial thoughts, what about the rest of the group? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmCjkh Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 I just thought of something else, though. Squad Leaders can be called out in challenges. So all the mathhammer in the world won't help if your axe-wielding champ declines and can't fight or accepts and gets butchered at I4. Power swords or mauls might end up being better choices than axes for generic squad champs; they're both at-I weapons, the sword giving AP3 and the maul giving S6 AP4 and Concussive, and both still pull the extra attack from the pistol. Something to think about. That's true and a pretty big problem now. For Plague Marines they're I3 anyway so I1 doesn't change it too much. A power sword won't let him strike before an enemy champion anyway, so might as well go hog wild with the axe/fist. And a bog standard enemy champion with WS4 S4 A3 and a power sword only has a ~30% chance of killing the Plague Marine champion in one round of CC, so there's some hope. For regular CSM or Berzerkers (now that furious charge doesn't increase initiative) a bog standard WS4 S4 A3 champion with a power sword has a ~58% chance of killing... so maybe it's a good idea to equip a sword to try to kill him back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 If they carry anything over from Apocalypse, the Havoc Launcher probably won't need a new set of missiles - pintle-mounted weapons all have the AA rule for free in Apocalypse, so that should hopefully translate over to Skyfire in the new rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 And push comes to shove, there's always Hydras... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearingtheword Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 If they carry anything over from Apocalypse, the Havoc Launcher probably won't need a new set of missiles - pintle-mounted weapons all have the AA rule for free in Apocalypse, so that should hopefully translate over to Skyfire in the new rules. This would be nice...maybe we can see if there is any info in the book on it, if someone that has one would be so kind? Although thinking about it, that may be an FAQ item. ~BtW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Araziel Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 If they carry anything over from Apocalypse, the Havoc Launcher probably won't need a new set of missiles - pintle-mounted weapons all have the AA rule for free in Apocalypse, so that should hopefully translate over to Skyfire in the new rules. If they carry anything over from Apocalypse, the Havoc Launcher probably won't need a new set of missiles - pintle-mounted weapons all have the AA rule for free in Apocalypse, so that should hopefully translate over to Skyfire in the new rules. This would be nice...maybe we can see if there is any info in the book on it, if someone that has one would be so kind? Although thinking about it, that may be an FAQ item. ~BtW I can tell you both now that it doesn't say that in the new rulebook. In addition, Havoc Launchers aren't listed as having Skyfire; only two weapons actually have it printed in the glossary - Hydra Autocannon's and Missile Launchers, when they fire a new round called Flakk which is S7, AP4, Heavy 1, Skyfire. So, after flicking through the current Chaos codex, I'm inclined to think that the only weapon we have that has Skyfire right now is the Missile Launcher. The only other way to get it right now will be by taking fortifications (Aegis Defence lines, Bastions and the Fortress of Redemption can all take weapons with Skyfire), or by taking allies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Or putting our own fliers in the sky. Hell Talon anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Araziel Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Now that, I can dig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 the only thing am interested in right now is if the havock launchers is going to be made AA like all the other rocket launchers or are we goint to have to either run RL havocks or ally to get AA. I doubt it. Typhoons and Cyclones don't get the Flak Missiles, so I doubt that Havocs will. Though that'd be cool for sure. but unlike us SM have whirlwinds . RL as AA arent so awesome as some may think . But if all else fails it will time to load up bastions and IG hydras. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HJL Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 a 5 man havoc squad with MOCU and 4 missile launchers will do a reasonable job at taking down flyers, if nothing else it will certainly act as a deterrent. I have found ML to be good in my Dark Angel lists and with the new vehicle rules i can see them being a good choice for chaos now as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 4 shots on av 11 + thats 3 hits , then cover[RL are not hydras they dont remove cover] lets say 1+ goes through and then your str 7[flak are str 7 not 8] glancing on+5 . you need 2 squads to down one flyer a turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Flyers aren't going to be getting much (if any) cover jeske. I'm pretty sure purchaseable terrain and ML havocs will be our main anti-flyer options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 I wonder if Reaper Autocannons might get Skyfire... It would make Terminators and Defilers rather nasty at that point, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HJL Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 even though ml havocs arent perfect, they are much better than anything else currently in the codex. win all oblits cant even touch them. there might be some interesting combos you can do with daemons to get re-rolls as well. ill have to take a look in more detail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Flyers aren't going to be getting much (if any) cover jeske. I'm pretty sure purchaseable terrain and ML havocs will be our main anti-flyer options. I've already purchased the Ægis defense line. You can put the quad flakk gun out by itself, or you can mount it on a Rhino or Chimera chassis and call it a Hydra. The portable cover is just too useful not to field, as well. I wonder if the new Chaos codex is going to give us some specific anti-air vehicle or vehicle upgrade besides our own flyer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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