abadizzle Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 So... Most of us have seen the rules for force weapons (swords, axes, staves) and the rule that states WYSIWYG as far as determining what the weapon classifies as... So my question is this- do you think Khârn will attack using the properties of a power axe? (+1S, ap2, Initiative 1) I'm afraid this will make him utterly useless- if Khârn doesn't have initiative to kill the powerfists before they strike well... Goodbye Khârn. Thoghts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Supposedly, "special" melee weapons only use their own rules, according to a post I saw on B&C somewhere.. So assuming Khârn has a named weapon, as I believe he does, he shouldn't get the drawback of the generic type. But that could just be my flawed understanding, or the whole thing coule be BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 I'm sure Khârn will have his own. Gorechild isn't a power axe, it's a chain axe for one. It's a World Eater relic weapon, I'm sure it'll have its own rules come 6th ed, not to worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Keyaetus Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 I dont think they said power axes were initiative 1, i think it was just -1 initiative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 I think the axes have the same rule as fists/hammers(unwieldy, cumbersome, or something), making it I1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abadizzle Posted June 26, 2012 Author Share Posted June 26, 2012 I'm pretty sure in gorechilds special rules it says "treat gorechild as a power weapon that adds 2D6 to armor penetration" ...so referencing 6th ed "power weapon tells you 'if it looks like an axe its a power axe" which is +1S initiative 1... I hope the rulebook has named weapons, etc are ap2 but I doubt for one it'd be that broad and I doubt for 2 that it'll appendix every special characters individual weapons n wargear. On the same line of thought abaddon will be ap3 because he has a daemon weapon- which as per its rules is treated as a 2-handed power weapon... Man I hope what I'm assuming is all wrong because this would be awful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 They'll have new rules for each. The thing's not even out yet, so don't freak. Pretty sure axes won't be initiative 1, that doesn't make sense with power fists and thunder hammers being iniative 1 and double str not just +1. I think they're -1 initiative and with Khârn he already gets a bonus initiative for his furious charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 They'll have new rules for each. The thing's not even out yet, so don't freak. Pretty sure axes won't be initiative 1, that doesn't make sense with power fists and thunder hammers being iniative 1 and double str not just +1. I think they're -1 initiative and with Khârn he already gets a bonus initiative for his furious charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abadizzle Posted June 26, 2012 Author Share Posted June 26, 2012 Nah you're right its not even out yet... Just speculating. I've seen the force weapon page from the rulebook so that's what I was talking about... It does say however that 'unique force weapons' are treated as ap3 melee force weapons w the individual's special traits... So probably the same for unique power weapons... Just might see Khârn at ap3... Whatever we'll see. I do fear an ap3 abaddon though. And force axes are classified as 'unwieldy' which is supposedly what pfists and hammers are too but I don't know that for a fact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Keyaetus Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Maybe there is different versions of unwieldy. I cant see how a power axe would strike last. Sure, maybe if its a guardsman who's just been given one, he'd be clueless, but trying to say axes are hard to use for astartes is a bit off. By alot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abadizzle Posted June 27, 2012 Author Share Posted June 27, 2012 Well from the force weapon rules the axe is "unwieldy" not "unwieldy 1" or anything... My only thought is that powerfists and thammers might be "cumbersome" or something and "unwieldy" is just -1 initiative... We'll have to wait and see. The only positive aspect is that you still purchase a generic "power weapon" and then choose which weapon profile to use at no additional cost. I for one don't mind the initiative 1 on axes for chaos terminators for +1S and ap2 because nothing short of other initiative 1 weapons will be able to pierce their 2+ armor in CC... Seems like a good choice there but sergeants, ICs, etc should leave the axes at home Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiron Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Gorechild is not a regular weapon. It won't become generic and won't apply general rules. Or you just think that Angron brandished some basic "power axe?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Apparently furious charge doesn't add +1 initiative anymore... But even if the new BRB temporarily nerfs Khârn when we get our own new codex he will definitely be right back to being awesome again.! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abadizzle Posted June 30, 2012 Author Share Posted June 30, 2012 Well... damnit. Khârn is indeed completely worthless for now... ugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thargrim_Bloodwolf Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Khârn's been nerfed, I was just reading the FAQ which says Gorechild counts as a power axe meaning he's now striking at I1 all the time since furious charge has lost it's initiative bonus. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thargrim_Bloodwolf Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Khârn's been nerfed, I was just reading the FAQ which says Gorechild counts as a power axe meaning he's now striking at I1 all the time since furious charge has lost it's initiative bonus. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Apparently furious charge doesn't add +1 initiative anymore... But even if the new BRB temporarily nerfs Khârn when we get our own new codex he will definitely be right back to being awesome again.! Thats right, just 4 more years.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 More like weeks or something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possessed Marine Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 my friend & I have already decided not to use the "unwieldy" rule for power axes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Why? They are balanced around it. There would be no reason to take anything else if they didn't have it. AP2 weapons are almost every single one I1, why should yours be better than anything else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Why? They are balanced around it. There would be no reason to take anything else if they didn't have it. AP2 weapons are almost every single one I1, why should yours be better than anything else? Axes should give you the option of getting AP2 at a lower initiative and higher strength with 1 less attack, or hitting at Ap3 and standard strength with full attacks allowed. The extra AP and strength is where your guy is grabbing the axe with 2 hands and going on an Honest Abe Rage fest. Flexiblity and all that noise. You couldn't be counted as being 'double armed' with a pistol either way-that would be the downside. Give Swords a similar benefit that the Grey Knights NFSs have with an invulnerable save in CC if none is available. Spears are +1 Initiative AP4 standard, but are +1 S AP3 on the charge. Mauls/staves are as is. That way, you'd have options that wouldn't leave Khârn so...neutered. Or of they just got with the quickness on releasing the New Hotness already. I feel bad leaving Khârn out of a fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheex Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 I don't think Khârn is as useless as some people here seem to think. First of all, let me say that he does suffer from this rule. It is annoying, no doubt about that. But it isn't terrible. Consider that Independent Characters can no longer be singled out in close combat like separate units. This is BIG. The only way for that Power Fist to kill Khârn is to send a challenge (which you can just palm off to a Skull Champion with a power sword) or by Precision Attacks (which can be re-allocated with Look Out, Sir!). This means that Khârn's low Initiative is not a huge hindrance. Coupled with his now absurdly high Strength and Attacks (7 attacks at Str7 on the charge!), he's not too bad. The only downside is that he is no longer capable of slaughtering enemy characters (and units, for that matter) before they get to strike. This is a problem with all Berzerkers, not just Khârn, but is balanced slightly by the fact that No Retreat has been removed from Fearless units. Obviously, not losing combat in the first place would be preferable, but it's better than nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 You can argue for how they should work all day long, but that's not how they work. GW thinks they are balanced, and I for one agree! All the four versions of power weapon have their uses, and a mix is preferrable. Khârn isn't useless at all, he will be the AP2 slaughterhouse in my zerker squad while the skull champ takes care of challenges with a sword or mace(most likely mace). If my champ manages to get a wound in on the enemy character, he will be at I1 the next assault phase as well, so Khârn can issue a challenge and slaughter him! :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abadizzle Posted July 2, 2012 Author Share Posted July 2, 2012 Interesting point about the concussive power maul champ excessus! Hah that line of thinking is very tactical and thought out... Something that befits a champion of tzeentch, not our favoured bloodthirsty champion of khorne! Die sorcerer! Skulls for the skull throne! :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 So dumb. Right after I finish my own Khârn counts as they nerf him.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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