Excessus Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Interesting point about the concussive power maul champ excessus! Hah that line of thinking is very tactical and thought out... Something that befits a champion of tzeentch, not our favoured bloodthirsty champion of khorne! Die sorcerer! Skulls for the skull throne! B) I'm not a champion of Tzeentch, I am Alpharius... :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 So dumb. Right after I finish my own Khârn counts as they nerf him.... See: I don't think Khârn is as useless as some people here seem to think. First of all, let me say that he does suffer from this rule. It is annoying, no doubt about that. But it isn't terrible. Consider that Independent Characters can no longer be singled out in close combat like separate units. This is BIG. The only way for that Power Fist to kill Khârn is to send a challenge (which you can just palm off to a Skull Champion with a power sword) or by Precision Attacks (which can be re-allocated with Look Out, Sir!). This means that Khârn's low Initiative is not a huge hindrance. Coupled with his now absurdly high Strength and Attacks (7 attacks at Str7 on the charge!), he's not too bad. The only downside is that he is no longer capable of slaughtering enemy characters (and units, for that matter) before they get to strike. This is a problem with all Berzerkers, not just Khârn, but is balanced slightly by the fact that No Retreat has been removed from Fearless units. Obviously, not losing combat in the first place would be preferable, but it's better than nothing. and Khârn isn't useless at all, he will be the AP2 slaughterhouse in my zerker squad while the skull champ takes care of challenges with a sword or mace(most likely mace). If my champ manages to get a wound in on the enemy character, he will be at I1 the next assault phase as well, so Khârn can issue a challenge and slaughter him! So not really nerfed at all...on the face of it, agreed it looked bad but these two posts explain perfectly how it isn't all doom and gloom. Just got to be canny with your placement of Khârn and issuing/accepting of challenges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odsox Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 I can't believe what I'm reading. ...The only way for that Power Fist to kill Khârn is to send a challenge (which you can just palm off to a Skull Champion with a power sword)... Khârn isn't useless at all, he will be the AP2 slaughterhouse in my zerker squad while the skull champ takes care of challenges with a sword or mace(most likely mace). If my champ manages to get a wound in on the enemy character, he will be at I1 the next assault phase as well, so Khârn can issue a challenge and slaughter him! Just got to be canny with your placement of Khârn and issuing/accepting of challenges. You DARE to claim command of Khorne's chosen with such craven ideas? You are all COWARDS. Khârn does not simply "palm off" challenges to lesser warriors! He does not rely on underlings to soften his foes! He does not need to be "canny" with his positioning or think twice about accepting challenges! HE KILLS, MAIMS AND BURNS FOR KHORNE! These new rules change nothing about how I will employ him. At the front, in the midst of slaughter, accept all challenges, murder everything! Get blatted by a powerfist! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! Od. (P.S. Does anyone know where I can nab that old, "We shall post in the shade!" gif?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 I can't believe what I'm reading. ...The only way for that Power Fist to kill Khârn is to send a challenge (which you can just palm off to a Skull Champion with a power sword)... Khârn isn't useless at all, he will be the AP2 slaughterhouse in my zerker squad while the skull champ takes care of challenges with a sword or mace(most likely mace). If my champ manages to get a wound in on the enemy character, he will be at I1 the next assault phase as well, so Khârn can issue a challenge and slaughter him! Just got to be canny with your placement of Khârn and issuing/accepting of challenges. You DARE to claim command of Khorne's chosen with such craven ideas? You are all COWARDS. Khârn does not simply "palm off" challenges to lesser warriors! He does not rely on underlings to soften his foes! He does not need to be "canny" with his positioning or think twice about accepting challenges! HE KILLS, MAIMS AND BURNS FOR KHORNE! These new rules change nothing about how I will employ him. At the front, in the midst of slaughter, accept all challenges, murder everything! Get blatted by a powerfist! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! Od. (P.S. Does anyone know where I can nab that old, "We shall post in the shade!" gif?) haha well maybe not "command" as such, but manipulate definitely :D It's all well and good playing and charging Khârn in the most fluffy accurate way possible but if you want him to survive more than the first combat and actually get to his initiative value then a certain amount of sensible placement can't hurt. Personally, I like my Khârn to last a little while in games and do some damage rather than..."oh I just blindly ran him forward and oh no he got punched in the face by a 25pt powerfist and failed one of his 5+ inv saves..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possessed Marine Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Why? They are balanced around it. There would be no reason to take anything else if they didn't have it. AP2 weapons are almost every single one I1, why should yours be better than anything else? Actually, I told my friend that I probably wouldn't be using Khârn due to the fact that GW broke him. My friend suggested house ruling it. After all, do regular chainaxes get the unwieldy rule? Because Khârn's axe is totally a chainaxe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Keyaetus Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 To be fair, my Khârn will probably end up killing the champion in his squad, I wonder though, does the 'on a roll of a one' rule hit the nearest guy now or still the same as before? Havn't actually read the rule book yet, just looked at art and pictures haha :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 So not really nerfed at all...on the face of it, agreed it looked bad but these two posts explain perfectly how it isn't all doom and gloom. Just got to be canny with your placement of Khârn and issuing/accepting of challenges. Oh yes I read both previously. He's just not the same powerhouse we're all used to. Hopefully in the next codex if they have him keep the axe they'll give him eternal warrior which, lets all face it, he definitely deserves after coming back from the dead repeatedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Why would Khârn settle for fighting just one guy? Khârn doesn't care about being "the best" or showing off. He's not some simpering Slaaneshi champion. Nor is he an executioner out to fell specific targets - that's the Skulltaker's job. No, Khârn doesn't stop in the middle of battle for showboating. He's so consumed by bloodlust that he wouldn't hear a challenge in the first place. Let those who "aspire" to be "champions" bother with that nonsense. Khârn's too busy killing everyone and everything in arm's reach to differentiate "ally" from "enemy", let alone discriminate between individual foes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 So not really nerfed at all...on the face of it, agreed it looked bad but these two posts explain perfectly how it isn't all doom and gloom. Just got to be canny with your placement of Khârn and issuing/accepting of challenges. Oh yes I read both previously. He's just not the same powerhouse we're all used to. Hopefully in the next codex if they have him keep the axe they'll give him eternal warrior which, lets all face it, he definitely deserves after coming back from the dead repeatedly. Agreed! Totally should be an eternal warrior and have a normal initiative level. And yeah, to make sure that Khârn isn't bogged down by fighting in a challenge against one guy (which would be unfluffy and restrictive) all one has to do is make sure there is a champion in the squad to accept any challenges that try to take Khârn out of the main combat. Make sure Khârn is embattled with the regular troops of the enemy squad and while he will have to sit quiet and wait his turn he will still get to wail on them soon enough. It's a bit annoying but that's the only way to make sure he gets to do what he's been doing in the last edition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheex Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Why would Khârn settle for fighting just one guy? Khârn doesn't care about being "the best" or showing off. He's not some simpering Slaaneshi champion. Nor is he an executioner out to fell specific targets - that's the Skulltaker's job. No, Khârn doesn't stop in the middle of battle for showboating. He's so consumed by bloodlust that he wouldn't hear a challenge in the first place. Let those who "aspire" to be "champions" bother with that nonsense. Khârn's too busy killing everyone and everything in arm's reach to differentiate "ally" from "enemy", let alone discriminate between individual foes. My thoughts exactly. He's not exactly sending his champion after the enemy, or in any way cowardly avoiding single combat; he just doesn't care enough to notice that the enemy is waving his arms, trying to get his attention. In none of the fluff I have ever seen has Khârn ever been the "duelling" type - he has always been about indiscriminate slaughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abadizzle Posted July 2, 2012 Author Share Posted July 2, 2012 Khârn in a unit of khorne termi champions would be boss :) until of course he murders them all. biggest problem in using Khârn now is that he always always needs to be in a squad w a character... I'm gonna try him soon and see what happens. Also gonna try abaddon w a termi champ bodyguard... Let the Galaxy Burn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possessed Marine Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Why would Khârn settle for fighting just one guy? Khârn doesn't care about being "the best" or showing off. He's not some simpering Slaaneshi champion. Nor is he an executioner out to fell specific targets - that's the Skulltaker's job. No, Khârn doesn't stop in the middle of battle for showboating. He's so consumed by bloodlust that he wouldn't hear a challenge in the first place. Let those who "aspire" to be "champions" bother with that nonsense. Khârn's too busy killing everyone and everything in arm's reach to differentiate "ally" from "enemy", let alone discriminate between individual foes. My thoughts exactly. He's not exactly sending his champion after the enemy, or in any way cowardly avoiding single combat; he just doesn't care enough to notice that the enemy is waving his arms, trying to get his attention. In none of the fluff I have ever seen has Khârn ever been the "duelling" type - he has always been about indiscriminate slaughter. actually, these both make sense... I never really thought of it that way. Maybe I'll try it with the rules as given and with the sneaky skull champ. So what do you guys think? Skull champ with power maul? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 I'm going to give mine a power sword as he'll hopefully be strength 5 already and Khârn takes care of anything 2+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possessed Marine Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 true, probably want the lower AP instead of the higher S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abadizzle Posted July 4, 2012 Author Share Posted July 4, 2012 Played a game against bloodangels today- man I wish I had used Khârn... I'm pretty sure running 2 squads of berzerkers w skullchamps armed w powerword meltabomb should have enough flexibility to allow Khârn his attacks while protecting him from challenges, etc. Simply put- his 3 dreads (and great tactics,rolling) mauled me, Khârn wouldve sliced those dreads in half Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Seems like the kind of situation in which he would've been useful. To anyone who has used Khârn in 6th, could you post how he did and let us know how our favored maniac/killing machine does this edition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer le Boucher Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 You can say all what you want guys, you won't take out of my head that GW hates CC army's... Lose of the +1Init on FC, you loose a bunch of CC special rules if you multi assault, but i know that sometimes its really annoying when the ork guy multi assault 2 of your units that are apart with a gap of 8", and by puting all his models in cohesion et then get to nab the 2 units. But sometimes you come inyo contact with 2 units or more, not really by choice, but by circumstances..., like charging a tac squad, and they are close to their Rhino, so your troops are in contact with the Rhino, while it wasn't your intention, so now like this you would loose your special rules?... Thats just the dumbest thing i've ever seen... The way power weapons now works, was that really necessary to change it?...,its more confusing then anything else, i see lots of people arguing if this weapon looks more like an halberd, then it is subject to the Axe rules, or if it is a Spear, thus under the spear rules... Also not only the faqs din't make it so that our dexes becomes a bit better, and on par withthe other army's, we get the laziest and :cussiest faqs i've ever seen... PUting the Gorechild case aside, there is a crap load of things that GW could have done right, but instead choose to screw. There is a crapload of new special rules that doesn't exist in any codex, even those so called "made with 6th in mind", zip, nada, nieks. So you might think that they will make some nice and complet Faqs and erratas so that every army's get those new rules, and have stuff changed... Well what did we have?...3 miserable PDF pages, wich in it 80% of the content was allready present in 5th!!!, and they still managed to :( things in such a way, that i'm disgusted of it... Using their brains, and do something usefull, was it that hard?..., dunno they have completed the 6th book for months now, was it so difficult, to adress the various issues with some of the codexes and make a cool faq, that make all of this worthwhile?... But no, once again GW showed us to wich extent they have no clue of what the heck they are doing... Screw you GW, screw you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 In reference to hte post before, I take this moment to post a picture... http://paranormalclaims.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/a27b8d59b6418c758c5403b2b7fb2975.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Willy Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 I pulled out Khârn in my first battle against marines. Yes he's still as bad ass as ever. Sure I wasn't ganking half a squad before they attack but the old sneaky champ with power sword then ganked the fist, the guy to eager to challenge me was all smug going, Kharns Inititive 1 now hehehe, then I made troll face and pointed to my champ, who gutted the poor sod, Zerkers don't attack first but still s5 ws5 so killed another three then Khârn came screaming round the back and sliced 6 of his guys, one little marine, left, failed test but being marine didn't run. Slaughtered him in his turn then consolidated 3 then charged his dev squad and was pretty much rinse and repeat. To be honest he's now better, his one weakness is cured with a champ, rejoice in the new rules. Also typhus works the same but causes instant death and rerolls wounds against everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamv6 Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 As a GK player I am looking forward to facing Khârn again. He is always a handful. TBH, the first thing I thought when I saw the 6th edition rules on Power Axes was "Crap, Kharne is even more of a beast" You have to remember that he will also get precision shot with his plasma pistol, so can probably remove the power fist / hammer guys from a squad before he gets there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possessed Marine Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 You have to remember that he will also get precision shot with his plasma pistol, so can probably remove the power fist / hammer guys from a squad before he gets there. Holy crap... I didn't even think about that. I was on the "Khârn sucks now" bandwagon... but between the sneaky skull champ & this... I'm not so sure about that any more. Maybe Khârn is better this way. He'll wipe out any model that the other 'zerker's missed. Hell, he even has a chance to take out the powerfist dude before they even get to combat. I gotta say, thank you all for the new ideas. For me it was all gloom & doom, but I'm beginning to see the silver lining hidden in the mushroom cloud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypher371 Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 why not destroy all fluff completely and have him with a slaaneshi chaos space marine unit to still get those initiative 5 his in :) lol and surely if you wanted you could choose to not use gorechild, using th plasma pistol as your primary close combat weapon you swing with two close combat weapons at initiative 5 and strength 6? yeah you won't hit on 2s but against some targets this might be a viable option? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Willy Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Don't you have to use your special weapon, plasma pistol would only be a regular close combat weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 I was all upset about the Init 1 heroes, but the fact that they don't count as separate units in close combat, well, it's still a debuff, but not nearly as much of one as you might otherwise have thought. With Look Out Sir rolls, you really only have to worry about challenges, and a champion will take care of that for a turn at least. Honestly, I'm strongly considering reversing my old habit of power weapons on characters, fists on champs. Better now I think to have champs striking at initiative, and leave the Init one smashy smashy to the harder to target independent characters. Plasma pistols on champs and characters also look better now, what with precision shot to take out special weapons (or try for champs, but the 4+ l.o.s. roll makes that a bit iffier). Probably still not worth the points they're charging in our current dex - seems like a lot of points to roll a single die and hope for a six, but more attractive than it used to be, and may even be a quality option if they reduce the cost of plasma pistols in the new book. Typhus in particular, with his T5, looks pretty awesome, but this is the wrong forum to discuss him. Khârn still looks pretty good to me, anyway. Yeah, assault armies are taking a hit this edition, and that's going to hurt Khornate armies in general, but Khârn himself is still looking pretty decent. Of course, with a new book right around the corner, I wouldn't get too worked up one way or the other about him. We've only got a month with this Khârn before he's replaced with something potentially entirely different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
empchildrenbob Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 a power axe is "unwieldy".So Khârn doesnt know how to control his axe anymore? Fluff wise, this makes no sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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