Kharn in 6th edition

[Iron Sage]

You try to hit an ennemy model, you miss it, you just missed the ennemy model.

 

The wording of the rule is that the 1's arn't discarded and that you put them aside, it doesn't say that they counts as hits or anything or that you can't reroll them.

 

Khârn Vs Sm(or anything), Rolls to hit, gets a 1, its a miss, because you din't hit the ennemy model, so you reroll, if you get again a 1 then you put it on the side, and a friendly model gets the hit.

 

No matter what if you get a 1 to hit your intended target, its a miss, because you simply din't hit the ennemy model, it then becomes a hit on your teammates.

 

 

I agree with this.

 

Clearly, a roll of 1 is a miss.

[Cheex]

Then where is the point of giving him Hate?

 

To give it to the rest of the squad?, for that you take an Apostle and it would cost less and be less risky.

That would be exactly the point of giving him that Warlord trait: to pass it on to the rest of his unit. More expensive than a Dark Apostle, true, but Khârn is still better in combat. He murders anyone he looks at while also having a supporting role, while a Dark Apostle only has that supporting role.

 

Also, consider that Khârn should be issuing challenges more often than not (which you probably wouldn't do with a DA). In a challenge, wounds caused by a character can't be allocated to models outside the challenge (RB FAQ), so at least he's not hitting his mates. But since he's still part of the same unit, the rest of his squad still benefit from his Hatred rule.

[Killax]

Then where is the point of giving him Hate?

 

To give it to the rest of the squad?, for that you take an Apostle and it would cost less and be less risky.

That would be exactly the point of giving him that Warlord trait: to pass it on to the rest of his unit. More expensive than a Dark Apostle, true, but Khârn is still better in combat. He murders anyone he looks at while also having a supporting role, while a Dark Apostle only has that supporting role.

 

Also, consider that Khârn should be issuing challenges more often than not (which you probably wouldn't do with a DA). In a challenge, wounds caused by a character can't be allocated to models outside the challenge (RB FAQ), so at least he's not hitting his mates. But since he's still part of the same unit, the rest of his squad still benefit from his Hatred rule.

 

I really feel Khârn lacks the Eternal Warrior rule the most however, he was hit by a Rhino, revived, survived a storm that would make popsickles out of marines and ripped to foe and friend alive and didn't kick the bucket.

 

He is our Jason.

 

He should have had Eternal Warrior.

 

Cry/Cry/Whine/Whine

[Ammonius]

He is eternal. When he falls in combat on the tabletop, he just comes back next Friday the 13th.

[Killax]

He is eternal. When he falls in combat on the tabletop, he just comes back next Friday the 13th.

 

But it isn;t in DA RULEZ :D

[Excessus]

He is eternal. When he falls in combat on the tabletop, he just comes back next Friday the 13th.

 

But it isn;t in DA RULEZ :)

Why should it be? His revival is not instant, when he wakes up from his nap the battle on the tabletop is long over and won/lost...

[Brother Ambroz]

Hmm it's like someone already mentioned beforehand about his "misses" actually hitting something and it could cause a fuss...oh wait it was me!

[Cheex]

He is eternal. When he falls in combat on the tabletop, he just comes back next Friday the 13th.

 

But it isn;t in DA RULEZ ^_^

Why should it be? His revival is not instant, when he wakes up from his nap the battle on the tabletop is long over and won/lost...

This. I'll admit I'm not fully up to date on Black Library stuff on Khârn, but whenever he gets badly injured, he does stand up again but only after a while. You say Eternal Warrior; I say that's why "casualties" in a game don't necessarily represent "deaths".

[Canadin]

Khan is now rediculous in combat

 

He should get all of his hits in round 1 of any combat, and wound on a 2+ most of the time

 

If he were an eternal warrior he would have to be a lot more expensive to field.

 

And as for rolls of 1, gorechild hits on a 2+, and rolls of 1 are set aside.

So if you roll 2.3.4.5.6, you hit, else you Re roll. Re rolls of 1 are set aside.

 

The best comparison I can imagine is for twin link plasma guns. If you roll 1 you overheat, but if that 1 is re rolled into a 2, it is no longer a 1 and will no longer overheat

[King Willy]

@canadin

It depends on ones definition of 'unmodified' do you consider a reroll a modifier or not.

I don't but have had to argue about it in a recent game, it was friendly so we just rolled off, I got my reroll ;)

[Kay]

The wording of the rule is that the 1's arn't discarded and that you put them aside, it doesn't say that they counts as hits or anything or that you can't reroll them.

Sorry mate, gotta disagree there.

 

"Instead, [rolls of 1] automatically hit a friendly model...locked in the same combat."

 

It's pretty clear that if he rolls a 1, it doesn't miss and still hits something. The rule for Hatred requires that the model misses with its close combat attacks; it does not matter who the "intended target" is. Khârn's rolls of 1 are not misses.

 

(Unless he's on his own, then you can reroll those 1s.)

 

Then where is the point of giving him Hate?

 

To give it to the rest of the squad?, for that you take an Apostle and it would cost less and be less risky.

 

PLus it also depends on the wording of the "unmodified" in the sentence.

 

It could mean that a 1 that you get the first time you throw is unmodified. OR it could mean that once you made the reroll, it there is a new 1, its an unmodified, because you can't rethrow it...

 

Arrrgh!!!!, this drives me nuts...

 

But then you would have an apostle... and not Khârn.

 

If you are taking Khârn for the hatred, you are doing it wrong. You get Khârn for the raw killing potential. giving hatred is just a bonus.

 

I honestly think that he doesnot reroll the 1s, both for RAW and RAI reasoning. The ruling say that if you roll a 1 you allocate a hit on a friendly model, surely you can reroll that 1 and get a 4, but it doesnt take away the fact that you have ALREADY rolled a 1.

 

cmon guys, being serious. You are paying 160points for a BEAST in combat. He is the best CC character in the whole 40k hands down, and he is a freaking barging. I dont really understand why people try to abuse and exploit the rulings to take advantage of the only flaw he has, which is his trademark...

 

Because of things like this, sometimes the hobby looks like a sad thing...

[Slayer le Boucher]

Is it abusing to use a rule that he have?...

 

It doesn't say anywhere that he can't reroll, or that he can neither unfortunaly.

 

But saying categoricly that he can't is a bit too much.

 

After all he even has the Veteran rule for when you take another Warlord with a different Warlord trait(because you can have only one), so where is the point of giving him the Veteran rule and thus the SM hatred when he can't reroll the dices?

 

Its a bit like with the discusion about the Axe of BF with the Rage rule, but seeing that the rage rule is allready on the lord, everyone who where against it though it was an error and that the rage was to be replaced with Rampage, and in the end its like most of people though, that it is meant for DP's of Khorne taking the Axe.

 

Here its a bit the same, why give him the veteran rule and then reroll against Sm, if anyway when he makes a 1 it doesn't count as a hit, but it doesn't count as a miss either.

 

So the guy as not one but TWO TIMES a rule on him that he can't use, see what i'm saying.

 

SO yeah you could say that he has the Hatred trait to give it to the squad, ok, but why then does he have the Veteran rule?

 

You can't argue that the Veteran rule is profitable to anyone but him.

 

If its not how its supposed to work, then having on a character 2 Rules that he can't benefit from is just plain stupid.

 

Also there is the little bit about the Gorechild, where it does sayt that he hits on 2+, even if he can hit automaticly, so if the 1's are autohits on his friends, its still a failed miss, because if its not a 2+, its a miss, regardless of what the miss does after that.

[Lord of Blades]

I was wondering... If you run Khârn in a 35 man cultist squad and they all survive (miraculously) and get into close combat, and Khârn challenges afte killing all the enemy (the cultists are still at 35 models [miracles!]) and he is now in a challenges against Ghazkull. He gets 7 re-rolls for anything, even his misses correct?

[Slayer le Boucher]

True i had forgotten about that reroll thing in Duels...

 

Another thing to add to the upcoming faq i guess.

[Lord of Blades]

True i had forgotten about that reroll thing in Duels...

 

Another thing to add to the upcoming faq i guess.

 

I had too, until yesterday when I got bored and read that in the rule book. GW get your FAQ's together and give us answers >.>

[Brother Ambroz]

Kay - You can't really say that it's "exploiting" because the ruling isn't that clear. Why give him hatred or even Votlw if he can't reroll? Just doesn't really make sense.

[Cheex]

Kay - You can't really say that it's "exploiting" because the ruling isn't that clear. Why give him hatred or even Votlw if he can't reroll? Just doesn't really make sense.

Hatred - because that's just from his Warlord trait, which is for his unit as well.

 

VotLW - for the same reason that Dark Apostles can have it, even though they're already Ld10 and have Zealot (which gives Hatred). That is, for fluff/consistency purposes.

 

I do agree that it wouldn't exploiting anything at all, though. I just don't think the rules fully support him getting the reroll. I would rather go with the weaker interpretation while it's still not completely clear.

[whiskeytango]

I really don't get why this is even an issue. The rule for hatred specifically says that you re-roll all misses. Khârn never misses in combat (he just doesn't always hit what you want him to), therefor, he gets no re-roll.

[Legatus]

Khârn does miss in combat. When he is not with another unit. In that, more "general" case, all rolls of 1 are misses. But if he is with a unit, then all rolls of 1 will hit a friendly model instead.

 

The wording of the rule was much clearer in 4th Edition. The 6th Edition Codex is phrased more ambiguously. But even in the 6th Edition rule, when Khârn is with a unit, then his rolls of 1 will "hit".

4th Edition:

"Any of Khârn's to hit rolls of 1 in close combat have hit his own side. Resolve the hits on a random friendly unit engaged in the same combat, as if they were hit by the enemy, using Khârn's weapons and profile. If there are no other units in the same combat as Khârn, these attacks simply miss."

 

6th Edition:

"When rolling to hit with Khârn's melee attacks, any unmodified rolls of 1 are not discarded. Instead, tehy automatically hit a friendly model (but not Khârn) locked in the same combat. Randomly determine (for each roll of a 1) which model is hit, from those within 6" of Khârn. If there are no viable targets in range, these Attacks are discarded."

In the 4th Edition rule, when there are no friendly models to hit, then the rolls of 1 "miss". In the 6th Edition rule, those rolls of 1 are "discarded" instead. The terminology is a bit confusing, but the 6th Edition rule does state that rolls of 1 will otherwise "hit" friendly models.

[whiskeytango]

Khârn does miss in combat. When he is not with another unit. In that, more "general" case, all rolls of 1 are misses. But if he is with a unit, then all rolls of 1 will hit a friendly model instead.

 

The wording of the rule was much clearer in 4th Edition. The 6th Edition Codex is phrased more ambiguously. But even in the 6th Edition rule, when Khârn is with a unit, then his rolls of 1 will "hit".

4th Edition:

"Any of Khârn's to hit rolls of 1 in close combat have hit his own side. Resolve the hits on a random friendly unit engaged in the same combat, as if they were hit by the enemy, using Khârn's weapons and profile. If there are no other units in the same combat as Khârn, these attacks simply miss."

 

6th Edition:

"When rolling to hit with Khârn's melee attacks, any unmodified rolls of 1 are not discarded. Instead, tehy automatically hit a friendly model (but not Khârn) locked in the same combat. Randomly determine (for each roll of a 1) which model is hit, from those within 6" of Khârn. If there are no viable targets in range, these Attacks are discarded."

In the 4th Edition rule, when there are no friendly models to hit, then the rolls of 1 "miss". In the 6th Edition rule, those rolls of 1 are "discarded" instead. The terminology is a bit confusing, but the 6th Edition rule does state that rolls of 1 will otherwise "hit" friendly models.

 

Sorry, absolutely right. I meant to say he never misses when he's in a unit. I think its fairly easy to surmise though that when he's by himself and rolls 1s, he would then get his re-roll. As far as the use of "discarded", it is fairly surprising that GW has been doing this for so long, and still hasn't realized that they need to always use the same words for things, otherwise you get arguments on the internet about what was actually meant.

[Kay]

Kay - You can't really say that it's "exploiting" because the ruling isn't that clear. Why give him hatred or even Votlw if he can't reroll? Just doesn't really make sense.

Hatred - because that's just from his Warlord trait, which is for his unit as well.

 

VotLW - for the same reason that Dark Apostles can have it, even though they're already Ld10 and have Zealot (which gives Hatred). That is, for fluff/consistency purposes.

 

 

Exactly this.

[Brother Ambroz]

Kay - You can't really say that it's "exploiting" because the ruling isn't that clear. Why give him hatred or even Votlw if he can't reroll? Just doesn't really make sense.

Hatred - because that's just from his Warlord trait, which is for his unit as well.

 

VotLW - for the same reason that Dark Apostles can have it, even though they're already Ld10 and have Zealot (which gives Hatred). That is, for fluff/consistency purposes.

Exactly this.

 

Can still be argued regardless. Giving a unit cosmetic (or fluffy) special rules for a codex doesn't make any sense to me. I'll continue to argue it until it's been FAQ'd.

[Legatus]

But the hate does allow him to re-roll his misses. So long as his 1s are not soaked up by nearby friendly models.

[Iron Sage]

But the hate does allow him to re-roll his misses. So long as his 1s are not soaked up by nearby friendly models.

 

Maybe I am missing something, but why would he not be able to re-roll 1s in his initial strike? He re-rolls, still gets a 1 or even two 1s and then those hits are taken on his unit surely?

 

It says "any un-modified rolls of 1 are not discarded" When you re-roll, you modify obviously., so it would be the "second batch of 1s" that are the unmodified rolls of 1 surely? I dont understand your argument.

 

Frankly, I find this Khârn thing less straight forward than the khorne axe and the Plague zombies on typhus. IMO needs to be FAQed badly.

[Legatus]

Maybe I am missing something, but why would he not be able to re-roll 1s in his initial strike?

He would, if there was no other friendly unit within 6" of Khârn in the same combat. But if there is a friendly unit, then his rolls of 1 do not actually miss. The 'hatred' rule allows a model to re-roll misses, not to re-roll 1s.

 

 

It says "any un-modified rolls of 1 are not discarded" When you re-roll, you modify obviously., so it would be the "second batch of 1s" that are the unmodified rolls of 1 surely?

Well, first of all, re-rolls are not modifiers. But if they were, then the original roll would be the "unmodified" one, while the re-roll would then be the "modified" one. Just like when a model rolls a 1, but would add +2 to his roll, his "unmodified" result would be what he originally rolled, not the final result after applying the modifier. But yeah, re-rolls are not modifiers.

 

 

It is not really complicated. It's just that the new phrasing of the "betrayer" rule is a bit odd. 'Hatred' would allow Khârn to re-roll all missed attacks during his first turn of a combat, but if there is a friendly unit nearby, none of his attack rolls can actually miss.