Kharn in 6th edition

[Brother Amarel]

'Hatred' would allow Khârn to re-roll all missed attacks during his first turn of a combat, but if there is a friendly unit nearby, none of his attack rolls can actually miss.

FWIW, I disagree. Khan rolls his dice in melee, he gets two 1's. Against, say, IG, these would be discarded and thus get assigned to friendly models within range. However, against Space Marines, those 1's aren't discarded they are re-rolled. If he rolls 1's again, though, they then would be discarded and thus assigned to friendly models.

[Brother Ambroz]

It is not really complicated. It's just that the new phrasing of the "betrayer" rule is a bit odd. 'Hatred' would allow Khârn to re-roll all missed attacks during his first turn of a combat, but if there is a friendly unit nearby, none of his attack rolls can actually miss.

 

It is complicated because people have different interpretations of the wording.

[Legatus]

FWIW, I disagree. Khan rolls his dice in melee, he gets two 1's. Against, say, IG, these would be discarded and thus get assigned to friendly models within range.

But... the 1s are explicitely not discarded. They are only discarded if there are no friendly models nearby.

[Iron Sage]

Maybe I am missing something, but why would he not be able to re-roll 1s in his initial strike?

He would, if there was no other friendly unit within 6" of Khârn in the same combat. But if there is a friendly unit, then his rolls of 1 do not actually miss. The 'hatred' rule allows a model to re-roll misses, not to re-roll 1s.

 

 

It says "any un-modified rolls of 1 are not discarded" When you re-roll, you modify obviously., so it would be the "second batch of 1s" that are the unmodified rolls of 1 surely?

Well, first of all, re-rolls are not modifiers. But if they were, then the original roll would be the "unmodified" one, while the re-roll would then be the "modified" one. Just like when a model rolls a 1, but would add +2 to his roll, his "unmodified" result would be what he originally rolled, not the final result after applying the modifier. But yeah, re-rolls are not modifiers.

 

 

It is not really complicated. It's just that the new phrasing of the "betrayer" rule is a bit odd. 'Hatred' would allow Khârn to re-roll all missed attacks during his first turn of a combat, but if there is a friendly unit nearby, none of his attack rolls can actually miss.

 

 

I am not, at least, usually, not an imbecilè. However, I still don`t understand how on earth your argument is better than mine and those who think that Khârn re-rolls 1s due to his Hatred rule.

 

I strongly, strongly dissagree when you claim this is not complicated and some how uncontested.

 

I for one, was hardly convinced by your argument and didn`t really understand it anyway. You may think me a fool, an idiot, or a general gnome with a funny hat, but I don`t get how on earth you can say that he doesn`t re-roll and that it is "simple" :)

[Kay]

Kay - You can't really say that it's "exploiting" because the ruling isn't that clear. Why give him hatred or even Votlw if he can't reroll? Just doesn't really make sense.

Hatred - because that's just from his Warlord trait, which is for his unit as well.

 

VotLW - for the same reason that Dark Apostles can have it, even though they're already Ld10 and have Zealot (which gives Hatred). That is, for fluff/consistency purposes.

Exactly this.

 

Can still be argued regardless. Giving a unit cosmetic (or fluffy) special rules for a codex doesn't make any sense to me. I'll continue to argue it until it's been FAQ'd.

 

Because I really feel that those who are trying to reroll the ones are trying to exploit. Khârn has been hitting his own comrades FOR DECADES. In every single edition of the codex, Khârn was in, with the rules that made him fell a comrade when rolling a 1. The wording on the codex seems alright to me, If you roll a 1, you dont miss, INSTEAD you hit one of your own, therefore no rerolls are allowed, because you dont actually miss, you just hit what you are not supposed to hit.

 

As I said, Khârn hitting his own squad is his BRAND RULE. Besides total carnage, it is what is is known for (The Betrayer... anyone...?) And anyone who tries to fold the rules to avoid playing Khârn how he was designed to be played, the same way he has been designed over the last decade... That anyone is doing it wrong.

[Legatus]

If you roll a 1, you dont miss, INSTEAD you hit one of your own, therefore no rerolls are allowed

QFT

 

...or rather, to underline that simple point.

 

• 'Hatred' can re-roll misses
   
   
  
• a roll of 1 does not miss
  

==> a roll of 1 cannot be re-rolled

[Brother Ambroz]

Agree to disagree then until it's been FAQ'd. You both have your opinions on the wording and we have ours.

[Slayer le Boucher]

If you roll a 1, you dont miss, INSTEAD you hit one of your own, therefore no rerolls are allowed

QFT

 

...or rather, to underline that simple point.

 

• 'Hatred' can re-roll misses
   
   
  
• a roll of 1 does not miss
  

==> a roll of 1 cannot be re-rolled

 

Look at the Gorechild line, it says" Khârn always hits on 2+, even if he can hit automaticly", so even if the 1 is an "friendly autohit", its still a miss, because you need a 2+ to hit, even if you are to hit automaticly.

 

Don't see it like a CC Hit, more like a failed dangerous terrain test.

[Legatus]

Look at the Gorechild line, it says" Khârn always hits on 2+, even if he can hit automaticly", so even if the 1 is an "friendly autohit", its still a miss, because you need a 2+ to hit, even if you are to hit automaticly.

Hitting his allies is not hitting automatically. You just don't have to roll again for all the 1s to see if his allies are hit or missed by the "slipped" attacks. (unless you suggest that Khârn has to roll again for all of his 1s, and on a 2+ he hits some of his allies.) Stationary vehicles are hit automatically. And why exactly do you think Khârn has to roll to hit against stationary vehicles, when all other models in the game would hit them automatically? Because if there was no to-hit roll, Khârn could not accidentally hit his allies. The only reason why he has to roll against stationary vehicles is so that there is still the possibility that he slaughters his own mates. GW intentionally implemented a mechanic so that Khârn would even have a chance to hit is own allies when all attacks would normally be successful.

 

General case: "Khârn's melee attacks always hit on a 2+ (...)." So, in general, all 1s Khârn rolls are misses.

 

Special case: "When rolling to hit with Khârn's melee attacks, any unmodified rolls of a 1 are not discarded. Instead, they automatically hit a friendly model." So, in the specific situation that there are friendly models in the same combat as Khârn, his 1s are actually hits.

 

 

This was much clearer in the 4th Edition Codex, where the betrayer rule read: "Any of Khârn's to hit rolls of 1 in close combat have hit his own side. (...) If there are no other units in the same combat as Khârn, these attacks simply miss." In the 6th Edition Codex, it is instead phrased as all attacks that do not hit anything being "discarded".

 

 

No iteration of the 'betrayer' rule has ever phrased it as "Khârns missed to hit rolls instead hit his own side".

3.5 Codex:

"any of Khârn's to hit dice that roll a 1 will count as having hit his own side."

 

4th Codex:

"Any of Khârn's to hit rolls of 1 in close combat have hit his own side."

 

6th Codex:

"any unmodified rolls of a 1 are not discarded. Instead, they automatically hit a friendly model."

Those are not "misses".

[Brother Ambroz]

Fine Legatus.

 

If every single codex before this said the same thing but this new one says something different, couldn't that be because the words "hit his own side" have been left out intentionally? Especially with the new hatred rules being huge in C:CSM?

[Legatus]

couldn't that be because the words "hit his own side" have been left out intentionally?

The 6th Edition Codex does say that the rolls of 1 "hit a friendly model".

 

And as I tried to point out, GW had Khârn hit stationary vehicles less effectively than every other model in the game would (having to roll for it, instead of auto hitting), precisely so that even then he would still be in danger of hitting his own side. Removing (or drastically reducing) the chance to hit his own side by letting him re-roll 1s would be somewhat in contradiction to that intention.

Plus, it does say that his rolls of 1 hit his own side. So there is that.

[JeffJedi]

If you don't hit your target, it's a miss. A roll of a 1 is always a failure.

 

6th Codex: "any unmodified rolls of a 1 (That means they failed to hit) are not discarded.

 

Instead, they automatically hit a friendly model."

 

If you miss you get a re-roll. You can only re-roll any dice once. If after the re-roll you get a 1 again then it's an unmodified roll of 1. They are not discarded, instead they hit a friendly model.

 

"Unmodified" would mean after re-rolls.

[Legatus]

If you don't hit your target, it's a miss. A roll of a 1 is always a failure.

That is what the rulebook tells you. So that is for "normal circumstances". However, a Codex might have special rules that supercede those general rules. For example, Flesh Tearers Chapter Master Seth can perform a special close combat attack that automatically hits. Some psychic powers also inflict automatic hits. And Khârn's special rules tell you that his rolls of 1 actually hit something.

 

The mechanic for Khârn's 'betrayer' rule in the 4th Edition Codex was the same as in the 6th Edition Codex ("all rolls of 1 hit friendly models"), but it included the following closing statement: "If there are no other units in the same combat as Khârn, these attacks simply miss." This was changed to "these dice are discarded" in the 6th Editon Codex. But the tenet that attack rolls of 1 are usually considered "misses" existed in 4th and 5th Edition as well, and yet throughout 4th and 5th Edition Khârn's attack rolls were explicitely only considered misses if there were no friendly models nearby. The 6th Edition Codex is not as explicit about it, but it still states that his rolls of 1 hit a friendly model.

 

 

6th Codex: "any unmodified rolls of a 1 (That means they failed to hit) are not discarded.

 

Instead, they automatically hit a friendly model." (That means they actually hit)

Fixed that. And emphasis mine on the crucial bits.

 

 

"Unmodified" would mean after re-rolls.

"Unmodified" means before adding or multiplying any modifiers.

[JeffJedi]

I disagree. Re-Rolling is also way to modify a dice roll. One far more common in the rules than adding or subtracting.

[Cheex]

I disagree. Re-Rolling is also way to modify a dice roll. One far more common in the rules than adding or subtracting.

Not so. Modifiers and re-rolls are both game terms defined on p5 of the rulebook, and they are both distinct from each other. You might consider a re-roll colloquially to be modifying a dice result, but as far as the game is concerned they are not the same thing.

[Legatus]

I disagree. Re-Rolling is also way to modify a dice roll.

If that was true (though it isn't, see Cheexsta's explanation), then surely the "unmodified" roll would be the initiall roll, while the re-rolled result would be a "modified" one?

[Killax]

They see me re-rollin'

 

They hatin'

 

They tryin' catchin' fightin' bloody

[Brother Amarel]

FWIW, I disagree. Khan rolls his dice in melee, he gets two 1's. Against, say, IG, these would be discarded and thus get assigned to friendly models within range.

But... the 1s are explicitely not discarded. They are only discarded if there are no friendly models nearby.

Yes, this is why I clearly stated those that "would be discarded.

 

Anyway, sort it out locally until there's a FAQ, but I'll be having no issue letting Khârn players re-roll 1's (for Hatred) before the 'standard' discard step as per normal.

 

EDIT: I want to add a 'confusion' edit in here, because I'm confused...

 

Here's the standard order: Roll to hit -> Discard misses.

Here's the standard order if you have Hatred on a roll: Roll to hit -> Re-roll misses - > Discard misses.

 

It has to be in that order, because you can't discard and then re-roll (because that wouldn't be a re-roll, it would be a fresh roll). So, as Khârn always hits on a 2+, if he doesn't get to re-roll, then he doesn't get the benefit of Hatred. Meaning that Veterans of the Long War (as he's Fearless) is pointless on him and Hatred Incarnate affects any unit he joins only.

[Legatus]

So, as Khârn always hits on a 2+, if he doesn't get to re-roll, then he doesn't get the benefit of Hatred. Meaning that Veterans of the Long War (as he's Fearless) is pointless on him and Hatred Incarnate affects any unit he joins only.

Unless he is fighting in a combat where no other friendly models are involved, in which case he can re-roll all the 1s he wants.

[Brother Ambroz]

They see me re-rollin'

 

They hatin'

 

They tryin' catchin' fightin' bloody

 

My thoughts too.

 

Legatus is just going to keep arguing even though he's not convincing anyone. Just wait until it gets FAQ'd.

[JeffJedi]

Well, purely in my opinion then it should work just as Plasma Gets Hot works with re-rolls.

[Piousservant]

It has to be in that order, because you can't discard and then re-roll (because that wouldn't be a re-roll, it would be a fresh roll). So, as Khârn always hits on a 2+, if he doesn't get to re-roll, then he doesn't get the benefit of Hatred. Meaning that Veterans of the Long War (as he's Fearless) is pointless on him and Hatred Incarnate affects any unit he joins only.

 

I think you have to realise (IIRC it does say this in the codex), that they have "given" Veterans of the Long War to models where it is appropriate to the background, even if it doesn't add anything on the tabletop. I think Abaddon is the same.

 

There is actually quite a lot of that in the codex - Khorne Bezerkers have the (pointless) option to take the khornate banner (which gives FC, that they already have), Possessed can take the banner of flame (soulblaze on bolter weapons, that they don't have), etc.

[Ethrion]

It has to be in that order, because you can't discard and then re-roll (because that wouldn't be a re-roll, it would be a fresh roll). So, as Khârn always hits on a 2+, if he doesn't get to re-roll, then he doesn't get the benefit of Hatred. Meaning that Veterans of the Long War (as he's Fearless) is pointless on him and Hatred Incarnate affects any unit he joins only.

 

I think you have to realise (IIRC it does say this in the codex), that they have "given" Veterans of the Long War to models where it is appropriate to the background, even if it doesn't add anything on the tabletop. I think Abaddon is the same.

 

There is actually quite a lot of that in the codex - Khorne Bezerkers have the (pointless) option to take the khornate banner (which gives FC, that they already have), Possessed can take the banner of flame (soulblaze on bolter weapons, that they don't have), etc.

 

The same goes for Veteran's of the Long War on the Dark Apostles, it says you can take that for free so why wouldn't you? A seemingly pointless "option" but I reckon VLW might come into play more through other upcoming codices - for example the DA codex might have things that give them bonuses against models with VLW. So while Khârn et al having the VLW rule might seem pointless at the moment it could have future significance.

 

As for my two cents after reading everyone's opinions regarding Khârn's special rule I would say that I have to agree with the opinion that if Khârn is in a first round combat with space marines then he gets to re-roll the 1s. Any subsequent re-rolled dice that result in 1s then hit friendly models. However, if he is vs. anyone else then those 1s can't be re-rolled obviously and thus his special rule kicks in and they are assigned to any friendly models he is with.

[Brother Ambroz]

As for my two cents after reading everyone's opinions regarding Khârn's special rule I would say that I have to agree with the opinion that if Khârn is in a first round combat with space marines then he gets to re-roll the 1s. Any subsequent re-rolled dice that result in 1s then hit friendly models. However, if he is vs. anyone else then those 1s can't be re-rolled obviously and thus his special rule kicks in and they are assigned to any friendly models he is with.

 

Khârn has Hatred everything because of his Warlord Trait so it wouldn't have to be Space Marines.

[Cheex]

It has to be in that order, because you can't discard and then re-roll (because that wouldn't be a re-roll, it would be a fresh roll). So, as Khârn always hits on a 2+, if he doesn't get to re-roll, then he doesn't get the benefit of Hatred. Meaning that Veterans of the Long War (as he's Fearless) is pointless on him and Hatred Incarnate affects any unit he joins only.

 

I think you have to realise (IIRC it does say this in the codex), that they have "given" Veterans of the Long War to models where it is appropriate to the background, even if it doesn't add anything on the tabletop. I think Abaddon is the same.

 

There is actually quite a lot of that in the codex - Khorne Bezerkers have the (pointless) option to take the khornate banner (which gives FC, that they already have), Possessed can take the banner of flame (soulblaze on bolter weapons, that they don't have), etc.

Minor point: there absolutely is a reason to take the Banner of Wrath on Berzerkers. Rerolling charge distances is a huge ability, easily more important than Furious Charge for the Berzerkers now, IMHO. Plus, the bonus to combat resolution can be handy (though given a Berzerker squad's efficiency in combat, not always useful).