Ethrion Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 As for my two cents after reading everyone's opinions regarding Khârn's special rule I would say that I have to agree with the opinion that if Khârn is in a first round combat with space marines then he gets to re-roll the 1s. Any subsequent re-rolled dice that result in 1s then hit friendly models. However, if he is vs. anyone else then those 1s can't be re-rolled obviously and thus his special rule kicks in and they are assigned to any friendly models he is with. Khârn has Hatred everything because of his Warlord Trait so it wouldn't have to be Space Marines. Oh really his is vs. everything? Overlooked that...my bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepaca Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 IMO "are not discarded" is not the same as "hit". So in the first round of combat the chance for Khârn to hit his own squad are minimal but from round 2 on he gets annoyed and rage-y and starts choping his own dudes. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieutenant Steel Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 Using fluff to argue about this isn't quite right and I would use the interpretation that he would be able to re-roll attacks in the first round of combat that didn't hit the enemy; it still allows him to still have (albeit a very small) chance of killing his own men that round but (if you need a fluff reason to back it up) also represents him charging the enemy and venting his frustration on them- from the second round onwards he is more likely to hit and kill his own men because he sees they aren't fighting properly/ hard enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheex Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 Oh really his is vs. everything? Overlooked that...my bad Only if he's your warlord, though. IMO "are not discarded" is not the same as "hit". That is true, but what about the part where they "automatically hit" a friendly model? Are those not hits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brindley Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Didn't read through the last 5 pages of the thread but I was just reading through his rules today, it says any unmodified rolls of 1. Does hatred not count as a modified roll. That should be enough proof otherwise they've given him a completely useless rule and would have written it differently. I'm still disappointed how Khârn can only charge out of landraiders ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caratacos Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 They don't have seatbelts in landraiders ;) I haven't read through all the pages but aren't re-rolls changing the initial rolls in such a fashion that the initial rolls never happened. Like when firing a weapon with the Gets hot rule, don't you ignore the initial roll of 1 if the new roll result is not a 1? In the same way if you initially roll one or more 1s, you re-roll them and only count the eventual 1s from the second roll as hits on his squad mates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheex Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 I haven't read through all the pages but aren't re-rolls changing the initial rolls in such a fashion that the initial rolls never happened. Like when firing a weapon with the Gets hot rule, don't you ignore the initial roll of 1 if the new roll result is not a 1? Yes, rerolls essentially treat the initial roll as if it never happened. The problem is that you only have access to the reroll if you miss with your attacks. And if you roll a 1 with Khârn, then he "automatically hits" his own men, so you can't reroll. Obviously, some still disagree with this, but that's at least how I interpret it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 I haven't read through all the pages but aren't re-rolls changing the initial rolls in such a fashion that the initial rolls never happened. Like when firing a weapon with the Gets hot rule, don't you ignore the initial roll of 1 if the new roll result is not a 1? Yes, rerolls essentially treat the initial roll as if it never happened. The problem is that you only have access to the reroll if you miss with your attacks. And if you roll a 1 with Khârn, then he "automatically hits" his own men, so you can't reroll. Obviously, some still disagree with this, but that's at least how I interpret it. Perhaps it could work like this: "Khârn rolls his attacks, 1s are allocated to friendly models and they suffer being hit, his hatred rule allows those 1s to be re-rolled however and any subsequent 1s now count as being modified and so do not get allocated again to friendly models." If it works like this then it both allows for the 1s to hit friendly models as per his indiscriminate bloodlust but also allows for his hatred rule to function as intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Minor point: there absolutely is a reason to take the Banner of Wrath on Berzerkers. Rerolling charge distances is a huge ability, easily more important than Furious Charge for the Berzerkers now, IMHO. Plus, the bonus to combat resolution can be handy (though given a Berzerker squad's efficiency in combat, not always useful). With the addition of overwatch, it's crucial to get the charge the first time and rerolling charge distance is huge. I use it everytime I play my zerks. As for the Khârn rerolling, it's been argued back and forth with the same arguments on both sides. I'd say talk it over with your opponent or wait for a FAQ (if we ever get one) on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheex Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 As for the Khârn rerolling, it's been argued back and forth with the same arguments on both sides. I'd say talk it over with your opponent or wait for a FAQ (if we ever get one) on it. I completely agree. I'd also be inclined to play with the weaker interpretation in this kind of situation (where the rules are not clear) in any case, even if I disagreed with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Amarel Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 I haven't read through all the pages but aren't re-rolls changing the initial rolls in such a fashion that the initial rolls never happened. Like when firing a weapon with the Gets hot rule, don't you ignore the initial roll of 1 if the new roll result is not a 1? Yes, rerolls essentially treat the initial roll as if it never happened. The problem is that you only have access to the reroll if you miss with your attacks. And if you roll a 1 with Khârn, then he "automatically hits" his own men, so you can't reroll. No, if you would discard the die that you rolled the 1 on then he hits a friendly model, and the rulebook states (pg 5) that you "pick up the dice you wish to re-roll, and roll it again." if you can make a re-roll. Whilst there is disagreement on this rule it's even more important not to shortcut to a possible conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheex Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 New FAQs are out. Looks like GW agreed with you guys: Khârn gets to reroll those 1s thanks to Hatred Incarnate. I was wrong :) On the positive side, it looks like I may use Khârn a little more often now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 I was wrong On the positive side, it looks like I may use Khârn a little more often now! Haha Yeah Khârn just got alot better, even with the transport problems he's pretty nasty now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 New FAQs are out. Looks like GW agreed with you guys: Khârn gets to reroll those 1s thanks to Hatred Incarnate. I was wrong On the positive side, it looks like I may use Khârn a little more often now! Best way to be wrong that! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadin Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Yup, Khârn got 2 FAQ's. Hatred Works, and he can now most definately kill his own men even while dueling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer le Boucher Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Thats one of the things out of the tons of things that needs to be Faqed, now we only need them to faq the Apothesis, so that a Named Char doesn't forget his rules/powers and loose his equipment, and that you can buy Twin Balflammers for your landraider... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheex Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Sorry Slayer, I don't see either of those things happening. Apotheosis is pretty clear that you lose all of your equipment and rules (which sucks for expensive characters - personally, I would have made the rule a straight set of stat bonuses and special rules, rather than awkwardly swapping the model for a new one, but that's just me), and it's not often that GW adds completely new options via errata unless it was something they had intended to do in the first place. But hey, stranger things have happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer le Boucher Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Come on Bro, don't spoil my Hopes ;p, also we are on the 8 page of this thread, its our Lord favorite Number, maybe it will bring luck in this whole thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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