Chaos Terminators in 6th Edition

[Lexington]

Here's something that's just occurred to me: In 6th Edition, there's a specific distinction between "power swords," "power axes" and "power mauls." Power Swords are CCWs with AP3, Power Axes hit at +1 Str AP2, but at reduced initiative, and Power Mauls are +2 Str, AP4. The strengths and weaknesses of these are currently being debated everywhere, but there's no denying that they're part of the game now.

 

I think we can safely assume that the somewhat-recent Chaos Terminators won't be redone when our new Codex hits in a few months. What's included in the boxed set when it comes to currently generic power weapons? Axes. And mauls. GW tends to only make rules for models it produces, so does anyone else get the feeling we'll be without access to power swords from now on?

[Vesper]

As far as I know, the whole power weapon thingy is nothing but a rumor, right ?

Then, I have to say that wouldn't be the first time Chaos get screwed and sees his possibilities reduced.

[Brother Ambroz]

I'm sure we can convert it pretty easily. We have alot of options for our models and no actual GW kit for them. For example, we didn't have CSM lord models on steeds for a long time, our dread has a ton more options than the heavybolter/PC and fist, Defilers being able to take 4 DCCWs etc. So I don't think they'll take the option from us, maybe just not put it in the box.

[Excessus]

Heck, I for one will gladly use mauls and lightning claws(yay for single LCs!) as cc weps on my termies, with a dash of chainfist in the squad! Mauls are looking awesome if they stay how they are now, especially against other termies(compared to swords at least)...

 

It's chaos terminators, they are begging to be converted! Big puppy-eyed, evil(misunderstood), engineered, warp-enhanced, ancient and lethal post-humans...on their knees and groveling for conversions!!!

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Every single box of joe schmoe CSM comes with a power sword; I have a dozen laying around, so those conversions can't be too difficult. As for rules for them, I can't see GW errata-ing every single entry in every single codex that references "power weapons" to differentiate the swords, axes, and mauls by price. Considering the stat advantages and disadvantages of each, I *assume* they're all just staying the same price and our choice as to selecting the specific weapon type we want and modelling it as such.

[minigun762]

I also believe that the loyalist tac terminator squad comes with a terminator armed power sword, so we could always use that if you're looking to minimize the custom work.

 

As it is, I'm torn about whether or not the difference between power weapons is a good thing or not.

 

EDIT: Would be nice if power swords & axes both counted as the same AP level, there was just the strength and initiative modifiers.

[Lord_Caerolion]

As DSF has stated, from what I've heard, the various weapons cost the same as each other, so you still just buy a "power weapon", or have "power weapon" listed in your equipment, but the actual effects depend on what the model has. The various strengths and weaknesses cancel each other out. So yeah, if you want Chaos Terminators with power swords, feel free to convert them. The designers just chose to give us axes/mauls instead of swords because they have a more brutal feel to them, as opposed to the 'noble' sword.

[Lexington]

As DSF has stated, from what I've heard, the various weapons cost the same as each other, so you still just buy a "power weapon", or have "power weapon" listed in your equipment, but the actual effects depend on what the model has.

That is very clever! Thanks for the info. Still, I do sort of wonder if that's more of a backwards-compatibility rule. Could be that the Chaos Codex marks our Terminators out as only having Mauls/Axes, but it'd be nice if they actually got the choice.

[abadizzle]

I'm 90% certain that you purchase the "power weapon" and the weapon's type is entirely up to you and what is represented on the model. As others have said, you're likely entirely welcome and encouraged to convert your chaos terminator's axes into swords. I for one think axes make perfect sense for chaos terminators, +1S for free? ...even if they strike at initiative 1 nothing short of other initiative 1 attacks can pierce their 2+ armor so they'll likely still get to swing. If all this is true, ill be converting all my mauls, etc into axes- maybe double-headed berzerker chain axes or something... Add a chainfist or 2 into the squad and I think you have incredible bang for your buck w chaos terminators

[A D-B]

As DSF has stated, from what I've heard, the various weapons cost the same as each other, so you still just buy a "power weapon", or have "power weapon" listed in your equipment, but the actual effects depend on what the model has.

That is very clever! Thanks for the info. Still, I do sort of wonder if that's more of a backwards-compatibility rule. Could be that the Chaos Codex marks our Terminators out as only having Mauls/Axes, but it'd be nice if they actually got the choice.

 

Chaos Terminators with mauls just feels right to me. Such as:

 

 

...and...

 

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll93/fl...jack/Sauron.gif

[Vesper]

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll93/fl...jack/Sauron.gif

 

Lorgar : The Movie.

[Sception]

My chaos terminators are mostly conversions, primarily armed with power swords, not axes or mauls. I'm kind of skeptical of AP3 power weapons, in general axes seem just flat out better, making a fair trade of init for strength and then getting better AP for free, but I don't know. I'll playtest my termies as they are - maybe the sprinkling of fists I already have will prove sufficient. If not, I have no qualms about ripping apart and re-converting painted models.

[Brother Ambroz]

So if axes reduce initiative to 1 (not saying they do, personally I think it's just -1) then what would be the point? Seems like fists would always be better same 1 initiative but double str instead of +1 and they'd have the same AP. That's why I don't really understand how axes could be at the same as fists. Maybe a small point cost difference but still.

[Snejk]

I think we just have to wait until the weekend comes and find out what's in store on the power weapon front.

 

Regardless of what the rules have in store i have become a new fan of the Power Maul. When I bought my first box of terminators i wasn't too happy about having a clumsy maul in it, but now i have come to realize what an ultimate bada'' weapon it is. And ADB so kindly reminded me about Saurons maul i had to do some reading on medieval mauls, maces and hammers and they were the just vicious when it came to opening up a full plate armor.

 

More axes and mauls whatever the penalties. My main oponents filthy imperial pigdogs will be butchered and maimed.

 

BONK BONK!!!

[totgeboren]

I think axes really are I1, same as Fists (also I think is has been confirmed that they are I1 over at Warseer. I don't have the book myself so I don't know for sure).

Think of it like this, why else would anyone take a sword over an axe? If the axe has +1S and Ap2 to the Ap3 of the sword, the axe is simply better, especially if you still get to swing before fists. For the axe and the sword to be even moderately balanced, the axe has to be I1. Just that +1S bonus is huge!

 

I must say it is not often I face 2+ save things, and for those, I tend to rely on my fists. Against things like Termies, a power weapon could be really useful for killing one or two before they get to swing, but now you will need the axe for that, making the sword somewhat pointless. Against 3+ save units (other marines), the ability to strike at the same time isn't really all that valuable, again making the axe more useful.

I guess for Lords and such, with an I of 5 or higher, the sword might still be useful. We also have to take challenges into account. If I give my champ an axe, and I get challenged by an enemy champ with a sword, I will most likely lose my champ without getting to swing my axe at all, so the sword might be a good all-rounder. I wonder if the mace allows an extra ccw? If so, that one will be really good too, though Ap4 is a big problem if you mainly face Imperials. Against Orks though, the mace would be awesome for smashing Nobs into pulp!

[the jeske]

its i1 when you use it two handed . if you dont they work just like any other "normal" power weapon.

[totgeboren]

Do you know that or have you just heard it? I have not seen anyone who claims to have the book say that the axe could be used like that, and I have a hard time believing it. Why would anyone take a sword if that was the case, and why would they bother with making somewhat balanced rules for the different sorts of weapons if the axe can be used as a sword?

[Captain Juan Juarez]

According to the guy who has a rulebook in the Amicus/News 6th Ed. thread Axes get +1S and strike at Intiative Step 1 - whatever that means - because they are Unwieldy.

 

I assume it mean's it's I1 as has been said before.

[darth_giles]

I think axes really are I1, same as Fists (also I think is has been confirmed that they are I1 over at Warseer. I don't have the book myself so I don't know for sure).

Think of it like this, why else would anyone take a sword over an axe? If the axe has +1S and Ap2 to the Ap3 of the sword, the axe is simply better, especially if you still get to swing before fists. For the axe and the sword to be even moderately balanced, the axe has to be I1. Just that +1S bonus is huge!

+1 Str isn't huge. Going from S4 to S5 just means you can wound a Wraithlord (if the tables haven't meaningfully changed), but not with any certainty. Depending upon that the initiative of the Wraithlord's DCCWs, you might not be able to stand a meaningful chance of killing it in CC if the Wraithlord has a bang-up round and wipes the squad before your axes or fists can swing. Not that I'm going to be running numbers on it; I'm not much of a believer in Mathhammer.

 

I must say it is not often I face 2+ save things, and for those, I tend to rely on my fists. Against things like Termies, a power weapon could be really useful for killing one or two before they get to swing, but now you will need the axe for that, making the sword somewhat pointless. Against 3+ save units (other marines), the ability to strike at the same time isn't really all that valuable, again making the axe more useful.

I guess for Lords and such, with an I of 5 or higher, the sword might still be useful. We also have to take challenges into account. If I give my champ an axe, and I get challenged by an enemy champ with a sword, I will most likely lose my champ without getting to swing my axe at all, so the sword might be a good all-rounder. I wonder if the mace allows an extra ccw? If so, that one will be really good too, though Ap4 is a big problem if you mainly face Imperials. Against Orks though, the mace would be awesome for smashing Nobs into pulp!

I doubt you'll see many maces. MEQ is still pretty standard.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

MEQ is pretty standard, sure, but S6 has any easier time of cutting tank armor than S4. I'll end up taking a maul in my Chaos Termies because 1.) Rule of Cool, 2.) S6 vs. vehicles, 3.) wound MEQ on 2+, and 4.) S6 ID's Eldar, DEldar, and Guard.

[totgeboren]

+1 Str isn't huge. Going from S4 to S5 just means you can wound a Wraithlord (if the tables haven't meaningfully changed), but not with any certainty. Depending upon that the initiative of the Wraithlord's DCCWs, you might not be able to stand a meaningful chance of killing it in CC if the Wraithlord has a bang-up round and wipes the squad before your axes or fists can swing. Not that I'm going to be running numbers on it; I'm not much of a believer in Mathhammer.

 

I take it you haven't used Berzerkers? That +1 S on the charge is a huge bonus. Wounding T3 infantry on a 2+ instead of a 3+ cut's their chances of survival in half, and against T4 you get a 33% increase in killyness. Also, against things like a Carnifex, S5 doubles your chance of wounding compared to S4. That is a big deal.

 

Ok, I know I presented those numbers from the most favourable perspective, but they are true. S5 instead of 4 really is a big deal. I didn't even take into account the ability to wound Wraithlords. To be honest I haven faced one in a great many years.

[minigun762]

The added strength and AP2 of axes could be significant against armor, giving non-power fist terminators a better chance to destroy most vehicles they assault.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The added strength and AP2 of axes could be significant against armor, giving non-power fist terminators a better chance to destroy most vehicles they assault.

 

Honestly, the power mauls are better for this than a power axe is. The mauls are +2 S and "Concussive" -- what thunder hammers do now. Even if you don't kill it with the maul, you'll take a hull point and might end up killing it anyway, depending on the situation.

[Warsmith Aznable]

All this mess just makes me need the new C:CSM that much sooner. I'm at a point where I'm afraid to model anything, and I know I can't be the only person in that boat.

 

But on the other hand, I've got the equivalent of 3 thunder hammers now, so that's something. It'd be an even better something if I had the equivalent of three storm shields to go with them, but that's life.

[Brother Ambroz]

I took this from the rumor thread regarding terminator weaponry I'd say it's pretty relavent.

 

Power Axes have AP2, instead of a Power swords AP3. Still doesn't seem to be a justification to take that over a fist as they're both AP2, but the fist doubles strength.

 

Also, if anybody is interested here are the rules for Power Mauls and Lances;

 

 

Maul:

Strength - users +2. AP4. Concussive (basically the Thunderhammer rules for reducing you to I1)

 

Lance:

Strength - +1/User* AP3/4

 

*Power lances have two profiles for both strength and AP. The first is used only on a turn in which the model charges, the second is used at all other times.

 

Thoughts?