Chaos Terminators in 6th Edition

[the jeske]

I understand what you are saying . Am not thining about tournaments here . It is just that in this edition modeling again will be important . you wont be able to make your chainsword extra cool and big , because extra cool and big chainswords have their own rules[actualy two because big chains and evis are two different weapons] . So people will enforce WYSIWYG more .It is a transition thing it always hits armies with options. We are lucky enough to have a dex that had few . imagine playing SW or BAs .

 

remeber EC builds under Gav dex were weak [at best] , technicly people shouldnt care if someone has sonic bikes[bad unit] sonic havocks[duh] or sonic preds[bad again] , but they did and the number of EC players droped a lot [and new dudes didnt come] .

[Araziel]

Hmm. I guess you have a point there, especially with the chainswords.

 

But I'm guessing that not many units (if any) are going to have access to all three types of chainblade, so for the purpose of WYSIWIG that example should be OK.

As for sonic weapons... can't stuff like counts-as be used?

 

 

I agree with you that 6th seems very modelling centred, no doubt a ploy by GW to make us all rush out and update our collections so we have all the options.

 

I am going to maintain though, that as long as players sit down and have a five minute chat before the battle explaining what's what, then the game should run fine. Obviously, this won't work for tournaments, so that'll fall to the judges in charge, who will almost certainly employ strict WYSIWYG due to all the weapon changes.

 

I could be completely wrong though, so who knows. I'll have to play my first game before making up my mind, as will we all.

[Warsmith Aznable]

I am going to maintain though, that as long as players sit down and have a five minute chat before the battle explaining what's what, then the game should run fine.

 

This is what me and my friends do. You hand a copy of your army sheet to your friend and then point out what's what, taking care to bring attention to easily mistaken pieces. Call it Phase 0 or summat, but it's a gentlemanly way to play, I think.

[A D-B]

I am going to maintain though, that as long as players sit down and have a five minute chat before the battle explaining what's what, then the game should run fine.

 

This is what me and my friends do. You hand a copy of your army sheet to your friend and then point out what's what, taking care to bring attention to easily mistaken pieces. Call it Phase 0 or summat, but it's a gentlemanly way to play, I think.

 

Exactly.

 

Because, realistically, making everything look exactly like it should do can be limiting, modelling-wise, and is just flat-out not possible for a lot of people in terms of bitz and finances. I'm in a campaign with 17 other people, building up to our first 850 points. Half the players are Chaos Marines. The amount of "This is X, but it's really Y because of Z" is pretty high, but also perfectly valid. I'd never think less of anyone for it. Some people just don't have massive bitz boxes or whatever.

[Araziel]

I am going to maintain though, that as long as players sit down and have a five minute chat before the battle explaining what's what, then the game should run fine.

 

This is what me and my friends do. You hand a copy of your army sheet to your friend and then point out what's what, taking care to bring attention to easily mistaken pieces. Call it Phase 0 or summat, but it's a gentlemanly way to play, I think.

 

 

I am going to maintain though, that as long as players sit down and have a five minute chat before the battle explaining what's what, then the game should run fine.

 

This is what me and my friends do. You hand a copy of your army sheet to your friend and then point out what's what, taking care to bring attention to easily mistaken pieces. Call it Phase 0 or summat, but it's a gentlemanly way to play, I think.

 

Exactly.

 

Because, realistically, making everything look exactly like it should do can be limiting, modelling-wise, and is just flat-out not possible for a lot of people in terms of bitz and finances. I'm in a campaign with 17 other people, building up to our first 850 points. Half the players are Chaos Marines. The amount of "This is X, but it's really Y because of Z" is pretty high, but also perfectly valid. I'd never think less of anyone for it. Some people just don't have massive bitz boxes or whatever.

 

This being the reason I exclusively play amongst friends in a calm environment. The problem with 40k is that some people seem to lose sight of the fact that it is a war game, and, in my opinion, should be treated as such.

 

Save the WAAC attitude for the right environment.

Back to the situation at hand, I have no problem with a powe sword being a power axe for a game (as long as said weapon doesn't mysteriously change weapon types depending on the situation; I've had that happen to me before...). Saying that, I do have my limits. I've had a player claim a chainsword was a daemon weapon a couple of times. Ummm.... no, it isn't.

[Sception]

Eh, it's a transitional deal. I don't see it being a big deal. Then again, in my area it isn't a big deal when a player says "these plasma guns count as melta guns" so. If you're in an area that gets grumpy about such things, then yeah, they'll probably get grumpy about particular power weapons, too.

 

I mean, I'll probably use my power and chain weapons as what they look like regardless of which is 'better', up until the codex when I'll pick which I like and convert the models to match, but I don't mind converting painted models, and I certainly don't demand my opponents follow WYSIWYG nearly as strictly, so long as they're at least consistent.

 

In a fantasy game, though I once had a vamp opponent deploy a unit of zombie empire cav as 'blood knights', which then magically became 'black knights' half way through the game, and that made me quite bitter. I don't mind you counting your weapons as whatever you want, but if the 'power mauls' you smacked my greater daemon around are suddenly 'power axes' now that you're in combat with my terminators, I'm gonna be bitter.

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

Early rumours put Legions at being released around August.....

 

Dare I hope?!

 

Yesterday Darnok did post this on warseer

 

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.p...l=1#post6289206

 

August will see CSM and Daemons.

 

Edit - By daemons he mean some new models, not a new codex*

 

For Chaos Terminators. Not sure what I will do. I still going to wait until the rule book in my hands. But right now I have a mix of the Power Axe & also the mace power weapon part from Arch-confessor Kyrinov

 

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/...Id=prod1300016a

 

IP

[Iron Father Ferrum]

So now that we've hashed out the hows and whys of the power weapons. . . what are some first impressions on a good squad set-up? Call it a five man squad -- how would you equip them out of the current dex?

 

I'm asking because I've been puzzling on that, and I can't seem to find something 1000% satisfactory to me -- probably due to the wealth of options since my loyalist Termies don't have many...

[Araziel]

I'm going to stick with a set of 5 power fists, at least for now.

 

If we get Legion specific Terminator sprues, I'll be tempted to make a couple of more squads and giving them all magnetisable arms so I can take everything and tailor for particular opponents.

 

 

 

I think that's a key point now, as well. Due to the power weapon differences, Terminators can now take on more differentiating roles. Want them to hold next to an objective? Stick them in cover and give them Maul's, and support them with troop squads. Want a unit to tear through troops? Take 10 of them, give them all lightning claws and send them towards the biggest concentration of enemies you can see. Facing an enemy that sucks in CC? Give them all power fists and laugh like a madman when you roll 3's to hit and 2's to instantkill (I'm looking at you, Tau).

 

I'm really glad that Terminators seem to actually be a decent choice tactically now, instead of just buying them because they look cool.

[the jeske]

but why 5 fists ? remember there are better termis then others , most armies are meq so people will spam them which automaticly will cause people to spam anti termi weapons . your going to hate hiting at i1 , specialy as each new dex is going to give more and more ap2 weapons for both melee and hth.

For me its 5 dudes 3 plasma 2 melta 2 ax 1 fist 2 swords. the fist is a champ . x3 icon still undivided.

2x2 oblits

1xDPs

2x5pms with 2 plasma champ[no fist] combi plas [take to have troops and to hunt other armies termis]

1 unit of 8 bloodies

1 masque or a tzeench herald in a chariot , but then I dont take a DP but a "cheap"[aka no demon weapon] lord or a sorc [depands on the FAQ] in termi armor.

 

full reserv army.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

But Jeske, why take axes on Terminators? They don't get an extra attack and they hit at the same I as the fists. They're cheaper, sure, but if the only in-game benefit I'm getting from them is a Strength boost and they're otherwise identitical, I'll take the higher Strength boost any day of the week.

[Brother Ambroz]

I'd probably go with 2 CFs, a power sword (possibly a pair of LC instead) and 2 power axes. Ranged-wise uhhh I'd probably get combi-weapons and a reaper. I'm still hoping we'll have options for thunderhammer/SS combos in the new codex.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Maybe we'll end up taking two squads like loyalists: one assault and one tactical? How would that play out I wonder? Or just "vs tanks" and "vs troops"? H Flamer, LC and Axes, combi-plasma for "vs troops", then Reaper, combi-melta, and PF and mauls and deep striking for "vs tanks"?

 

I don't know yet, just throwing an idea out there.

[Araziel]

I probably should have explained myself better.

 

I'm going to keep using a squad of five armed with power fists, because that's what my two Terminator squads have right now. I may, when I have enough spare cash, buy a couple of new boxes and some magnets and paint everything up like I said above, but otherwise I'm not jumping ship and spending loads just because GW are trying to trick me into doing so by changing all the rules.

 

 

Plus, y'know... Terminators look cool with giant hands that punch tanks to death.

[Vesper]

You know, I just hope we get a codex asap. Just can't bear the Gav one. Such a waste of paper.

[minigun762]

So now that we've hashed out the hows and whys of the power weapons. . . what are some first impressions on a good squad set-up? Call it a five man squad -- how would you equip them out of the current dex?

 

1 heavy flamer and 4 combi-plasmas for range.

1 chain/power fist and 4 power axes for HtH.

 

Reason:

Heavy flamer is cheap and a nice way to handle cover hugging units. I swapped out meltas for plasma because we can fire them at 24" if we move and the combination of S7 AP2 + hull points means that rapid firing 8 plasma shots into AV10-11 has a good chance of destroying it while still being a threat to MEQs and the like.

I think a single fist weapons is enough with the increased S and AP value for axes. Similar to the plasma above, its a threat to armor, MCs, MEQs and terminators without overspending on points.

[darth_giles]

I take it you haven't used Berzerkers? That +1 S on the charge is a huge bonus. Wounding T3 infantry on a 2+ instead of a 3+ cut's their chances of survival in half, and against T4 you get a 33% increase in killyness. Also, against things like a Carnifex, S5 doubles your chance of wounding compared to S4. That is a big deal.

I haven't played 'Zerkers since the 3.5 codex, mostly because I haven't been able to find a way to guarantee charging. If transports hadn't been nerfed to destruction in three different ways, then perhaps I would have.

 

Ok, I know I presented those numbers from the most favourable perspective, but they are true. S5 instead of 4 really is a big deal. I didn't even take into account the ability to wound Wraithlords. To be honest I haven faced one in a great many years.

Its one of the scenarios I tend to keep in mind. I should probably replace it with a Carnifex, but that doesn't change too much.

 

The usual assault scenarios I tend to thought experiment are: a unit with I4 power weapons and multiple attacks, a wraithlord, and a mob of grots.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

So now that we've hashed out the hows and whys of the power weapons. . . what are some first impressions on a good squad set-up? Call it a five man squad -- how would you equip them out of the current dex?

 

I'm asking because I've been puzzling on that, and I can't seem to find something 1000% satisfactory to me -- probably due to the wealth of options since my loyalist Termies don't have many...

 

 

After a little more consideration, I think I've figured something out. A champ with a pair of claws, two combi-plasma, two combi-meltas, and four power and/or chain fists. Gets some at-I AP3 attacks as well as some squish-you-good attacks, and the four combis can handle infantry, armor, ICs, and MCs. I see now the point in the axes -- some pretty reasonable points savings over the fists -- but if I'm striking at I1, I'd rather be S8 than S5.

 

Edit: Nope, I want at least one maul in there. Maybe two. There's something to be said for S6 at I4.

[the jeske]

But Jeske, why take axes on Terminators? They don't get an extra attack and they hit at the same I as the fists. They're cheaper, sure, but if the only in-game benefit I'm getting from them is a Strength boost and they're otherwise identitical, I'll take the higher Strength boost any day of the week.

like other then looks ? am kidding of course . I'll just say wait for the FAQ your not goint to run around with 5 fists. + oddly enough they dont fit in to the list . I would have to drop a bloodi to fit 5 fists in[or combi plasma/champ from one of the pms , but that would suck] , so am runing 2 ax and they are better then mauls or 4 swords. technicly I could drop the champ upgrade and run 2 fists 2 ax and one weapon , but then I would have to magnetize another set of fists [so I would have to buy magnets just to put 3 fists in to the whole army , not worth it considering I would have to paint them].

[Bearingtheword]

I am going to maintain though, that as long as players sit down and have a five minute chat before the battle explaining what's what, then the game should run fine.

 

This is what me and my friends do. You hand a copy of your army sheet to your friend and then point out what's what, taking care to bring attention to easily mistaken pieces. Call it Phase 0 or summat, but it's a gentlemanly way to play, I think.

 

 

I am going to maintain though, that as long as players sit down and have a five minute chat before the battle explaining what's what, then the game should run fine.

 

This is what me and my friends do. You hand a copy of your army sheet to your friend and then point out what's what, taking care to bring attention to easily mistaken pieces. Call it Phase 0 or summat, but it's a gentlemanly way to play, I think.

 

Exactly.

 

Because, realistically, making everything look exactly like it should do can be limiting, modelling-wise, and is just flat-out not possible for a lot of people in terms of bitz and finances. I'm in a campaign with 17 other people, building up to our first 850 points. Half the players are Chaos Marines. The amount of "This is X, but it's really Y because of Z" is pretty high, but also perfectly valid. I'd never think less of anyone for it. Some people just don't have massive bitz boxes or whatever.

 

This being the reason I exclusively play amongst friends in a calm environment. The problem with 40k is that some people seem to lose sight of the fact that it is a war game, and, in my opinion, should be treated as such.

 

Save the WAAC attitude for the right environment.

Back to the situation at hand, I have no problem with a powe sword being a power axe for a game (as long as said weapon doesn't mysteriously change weapon types depending on the situation; I've had that happen to me before...). Saying that, I do have my limits. I've had a player claim a chainsword was a daemon weapon a couple of times. Ummm.... no, it isn't.

 

Gotta point out though Araziel, that their are BL fluff examples of a chainsword being a daemon weapon.... Word Bearers trilogy- Marduks Chainsword Borg'hash for ex.

 

I'd accept it on a Warlord or IC where it was appropriately modeled... I'm sure someone could model one pretty cool looking....

 

~BtW

 

(Bolded emphasis mine)

 

On the topic of what I currently run adn may change to, I run 4 as a backup to my Lord in TDA, 1 w/ hvy flamer and axe, 2 w/ combi meltas and axes, and one w/ combi flamer and chainfist. I'll be getting another box and adding some with a reaper autocannon, a combi plas or 2, a maul or 2, another chainfist and maybe another with a pair of LC's just for fun...who knows...thinking Araziel has the right idea with magnetizing though, especially if I do it before the new dex arrives....

[Araziel]

Gotta point out though Araziel, that their are BL fluff examples of a chainsword being a daemon weapon.... Word Bearers trilogy- Marduks Chainsword Borg'hash for ex.

 

I'd accept it on a Warlord or IC where it was appropriately modeled... I'm sure someone could model one pretty cool looking....

 

True, and I thought of Marduk the second after I posted.

But there is a difference between a chainsword that has a daemon trapped inside it by a Dark Apostle's Acolyte that is so viscous, it sprouts barbs and pierces itself into the wielders flesh like a facehugger from Alien, and that of a model that isn't even a Lord, but a plastic CSM (no added detail or anything) with a standard chainsword held in its hand.

 

 

I should also probably point out that I may have bitter feelings about this particular example - it was during my first Apocalypse game, and the player in question had really quickly built five "Lords" out of a CSM Combat squad box, stuck them with Abbaddon and fielded that "Lords of the 13th Crusade" formation, or whatever its called (being as it was a 3,000 game and the formation seemed like it was designed for games of about 20k per team..). That kind of douchery just :unsure: 's me off.

[Muskie]

I don't use mine that often. I have a mix of Rogue Trader models, 2nd Edition models, and some of the Forgeworld Nurgle guys. I still haven't painted the latter. I want to do undivided Terminators so they are affordable and a squad of Bezerker Terminators because they'll look cool. I'll have to reconsider my painting queue once the new Codex comes out and I seriously consider what I own and ally with.

 

My squad is armed as is and that doesn't bother me at all. I've gone through many edition changes, this one won't be the worst. I have so many painted models some have sat on shelves and in cases since 2nd edition. I'm taking a wait and see for a few more months...

 

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5014/5476784661_9b11dc173c.jpg

All the Nurgle Terminators I rebased by Muskie McKay, on Flickr

[Bearingtheword]

Can't blame ya for that Araziel, that would be douchebaggery... I don't forsee that happening often, and if some clown tried to stick a Daemon Wep on a non Lord model I'd tell him to stuff it as they are the only ones who can use them anyhow.

 

I can't wait to get a game in testing out my Dark Crozius though with the new rules to see what kind of results I get with it. The +2 str will be nice, as will the Concussive, but the AP4 worries me a bit. I am also wondering if they will be putting a version of it back into the new codex. Otherwise I'll be trying it out as a force wep (as a sorc) or a Daemon Wep ( as a lord), both ways have their benefits.....

 

~BtW

[Araziel]

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5014/5476784661_9b11dc173c.jpg

All the Nurgle Terminators I rebased by Muskie McKay, on Flickr

 

Those are some awesome Terminators, Muskie!

 

Can't blame ya for that Araziel, that would be douchebaggery... I don't forsee that happening often, and if some clown tried to stick a Daemon Wep on a non Lord model I'd tell him to stuff it as they are the only ones who can use them anyhow.

 

I can't wait to get a game in testing out my Dark Crozius though with the new rules to see what kind of results I get with it. The +2 str will be nice, as will the Concussive, but the AP4 worries me a bit. I am also wondering if they will be putting a version of it back into the new codex. Otherwise I'll be trying it out as a force wep (as a sorc) or a Daemon Wep ( as a lord), both ways have their benefits.....

 

~BtW

 

Yeah, I know right.

 

Lords are Lords. They have all sort of evil bling, and giant swords/axes/fists/claws. They do not all look like the CSMs you run as Troops.

I can respect that not everybody has the money to put into this hobby as much as others (God knows, I'm on of them), but really, if you can afford to buy a Combat squad just so you can run a horribly OP formation, then you can afford a Lord who comes in at half the price. I tried another game of Apocalypse with this guy about a year or so later with bigger armies, and he was still running those five guys as Lords for the purpose of the formation.

So now I don't play with him.

 

 

 

Back on topic;

 

The more I think about it, the more I think that magnets are the best option here. I don't think there is "one outfit for all scenarios" anymore. Different weapons are better for different enemies, squads, and roles. I think we're all going to have to get a lot of test games in to see exactly what works for each of us, and what doesn't.

[Trevak Dal]

I'm 90% certain that you purchase the "power weapon" and the weapon's type is entirely up to you and what is represented on the model. As others have said, you're likely entirely welcome and encouraged to convert your chaos terminator's axes into swords. I for one think axes make perfect sense for chaos terminators, +1S for free? ...even if they strike at initiative 1 nothing short of other initiative 1 attacks can pierce their 2+ armor so they'll likely still get to swing. If all this is true, ill be converting all my mauls, etc into axes- maybe double-headed berzerker chain axes or something... Add a chainfist or 2 into the squad and I think you have incredible bang for your buck w chaos terminators

 

I'm not sure I like that at all. So, instead of having standard power weapons, my guys have two 'power axes' which are ghetto powerfists? +1 Strength (against 4 usually) is cool and it's nice to see diversification...but not at the cost of having initiative 1. And the maul thing is sort of like a poorman's thunderhammer?

 

As to what I'd run...I think I'll just take a detachment of Tau Allies and run 3 crisis suits in the HQ with Plasma Rifles, and Missile pods and Multitrackers, 3 crisis suits in the Elite section with Plasma Rifles Missile Pods and Multitrackers, 6 requisite firewarriors, and 3 Broadsides with the Advanced Stabilization System.

 

The Chaos Main Force would be lots of Beserkers and regular old Chaos Space Marines, led by Khârn and a Daemon Prince. I got all the Terminator killing power at my fingertips, and I need not fear Grey Knights or any other enemy. And it will be glorious, righteous revenge to play with that list all of my hate, all of my rage distilled into a furious death blow.