The New Vehicle Rules

[Koremu]

We seem now to have a fairly concrete run-down of the new vehicle rules from several sources. These are of course still rumours, but I think it's still worth us beginning to debate their effects upon Tactics.

 

 

Now, to recap:

 

If you glance, you removed a hull point.

If you penetrate, you remove a hull point and roll on the damage chart which is as follows:

 

1-2: Shaken

3: Stunned

4: Weapon Destroyed

5: Immobilised

6: Explodes!

 

The most significant and interesting point here is that stun-locking just got much harder. With glances no longer able to stop your battle-taxi from moving, it's no longer that easy to neutralise our metal boxes.

 

Hull Points are 3 for most vehicles. Land Speeders (and fragile enemy walkers like Sentinels) appear to have 2, Land Raiders and their ilk have 4.

 

next:

Vehicle Movement Speed:

 

Combat Speed: 6"

Cruising Speed: 6-12"

 

Flat Out: Up to 6" of movement in the Shooting Phase (basically "Run", but with a fixed speed).

Also: Troops can only disembark at Combat Speed.

 

 

So what we have here are vehicles that move faster combined with vehicles that are harder to stun lock.

 

Brothers, if you thought for one second that 6th Edition was going to nerf mechanised warfare in 40, let me be the first to correct you on that.

 

Note that in the big thread in News/Rumours/Announcements there seems to be a lot of "the sky is falling" posts. Personally I'm looking for cheap vehicles on eBay.

[JamesI]

Long Fang missile spam are going to really hurt Rhinos/Razorbacks. Rifleman dreads are great for killing armor 11 vehicles.

 

Land Raiders may be fine, but I expect to see a lot less Armor 10-12 vehicles on the table soon.

[Koremu]

Long Fang missile spam are going to really hurt Rhinos/Razorbacks. Rifleman dreads are great for killing armor 11 vehicles.

 

Land Raiders may be fine, but I expect to see a lot less Armor 10-12 vehicles on the table soon.

 

I'm not sure where you are getting that from James, TBH

 

It's now less likely that a Pen will kill an AV11 vehicle, and it takes 3 pen/glances total to kill a Rhino

 

Before Pens stood a 50% chance of rendering a Rhino out of the game (Immob/Wreck/Bang!), now it's only 33%

 

A rough back of the envelope calculation here suggests that the average number of Krak missiles to kill a Rhino has gone up slightly, while the maneuverability of the Rhino while under fire is also increased.

 

Critically, it means you can no longer use small numbers of Krak Missile platforms to effectively neutralise the metal boxes by stun locking them.

 

 

EDIT: Firing

 

 

Sure thing.

 

Stationary: All weapons.

 

Combat speed (6"): One weapon using the models BS. The vehicle can also Snap Fire* with other guns though, but only weapons that can be Snap Fired.

 

Cruising Speed (6-12"): Only Snap Fire. See above for details.

 

*Snap Fire:

 

Counted as BS1 while trying to shoot.

Some weapon types, such as Template or Ordnance, or those that have certain special rules, such as Blast, cannot be Snap Fired. It's important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a BS - such as the Monolith's portal of exile - cannot be fired as a Snap Shot.

 

So in other words, it looks like if you don't roll to hit with it on a D6, like say, Heavy Bolters or Lascannons, then no, you can't Snap Fire.

[JamesI]

Maybe its because I play fast vehicles, and the bonus for fast seems minimal.

 

But 3 glances and a rhino is dead is bad. When before 3 glances had almost no chance to kill a rhino.

[minigun762]

Harder to stun lock but I feel they'd be easier to destroy outright. 3 glances for most targets puts it out of action (if I understand the point of hull points).

 

My guess is that people will continue to focus fire on a target beyond just shake/stun in order to kill it but that kill will likely come quicker then it currently would.

 

I think armies that only rely on a single turn of transports being alive will have an easier time compared to armies that like their transports to hang around longer and provide additional support.

[DarkGuard]

But 3 glances and a rhino is dead is bad. When before 3 glances had almost no chance to kill a rhino.

 

This was my thinking, Rhinos and the like just got less durable.

 

I don't think Hull Points will wreck Land Raiders too much, it's hard to glance them consistently and they are harder to kill on the pen. They're more and less durable at the same time. (I know that makes little sense, I'm tired ;))

 

However, unfortunately I can see mech either increasing or disappearing completely, I don't think hybrid will be quite what we expected. Mech will either increase to keep up target saturation as vehicles are easier to kill now, or decrease because they are easier to kill.

 

Hybrid will most likely be a few, tougher gun tanks, and then lots of infantry looking to hotfoot it across the board, maybe a couple of transports, possibly flyers as they'll be harder to bring down.

 

Hard to say now, but those are my predictions.

[Phelaar]

If its true that once the vehicle reaches 0 hull points it is wrecked then vehicles are easier to destroy. Factor in the +1 of AP2 and +2 of AP1 and the chance of destroyed increases when penetrated.

Units aren't going to be able to hide in light transports for as long as they used to. With the new rapid fire rules most marines are going to want to be out of the vehicles to shoot anyway.

 

Using transports as cheap bunkers will probably go away. I haven't seen anything about shooting from vehicles using fire points though so drive by's might still be useful.

[pyroknight]

Don't forget its a bit harder to stop a rhino now.

 

If you don't destroy a rhino its going to keep on rolling at you, and its squad can probably get out, spread out, and use rapid fire at full range.

 

If you don't destroy a pred, it can keep rolling and snap shoot.

 

Also recall that Stunning is harder now, and pens only destroy a vehicle on a 6. So there is less chance of that one lone missile blowing up your rhino.

 

While its overall easier to kill a vehicle, you now need to commit to doing it. The random tac squad is not going to stop a rhino anymore.

[Hellios]

I think this will help Dark Eldar (as a Dark Eldar player.)... So many games you do nothing but glance and tyhen stun... However and against GKs with fortitude... we did nothing... Now we will at least be able to glance to death. Oh and Dark Eldar vehicles fall out of the sky if someone sneezes so it is pretty hard to make them easier to kill.

 

Oh also... Wraithcannons and haywire grenades anyone? Unless they change the rules for them... Which with haywire grenades wouldn't surprise me... Wraithcannons I'm not so sure about.

 

One of the rumours from a while ago was that lance weapons would get a bonus or wouldn't suffer a penalty that other weapons would against vehicles. Is this true? or is it just related to AP?

[WarriorFish]

What are the rules for Fast vehicles? I've been unable to find out what extra armour does either.

 

Not being able to snap fire blasts or templates is a bit of a disappointment but understandable and of course BS1 is better than nothing! The flamer Baal Pred should benefit from the Fast rule (assuming it's ok?) and the Redeemer from PotMS which I assume is unchanged by the rulebook so it shouldn't affect us too much.

 

I like the new rapid fire rules as it means I can finally have decent mechanised tactics as my Marines aren't rendered useless by moving. In 6th I'll be able to have them advance on the enemy and shoot right from the start, supported by their transports.

[breng77]

I don't think survivability went down nearly as much as people seem to think.

 

For a Marine firing a S 8 gun (not ap 1 or 2) it used to take around 6 pens (6.75 counting only wrecked destroyed results) to kill AV10, 9 for AV 11, 13.5 for Av12, now each of those is a little lower (6 AV 10, 7.7 AV 11, 10 for (19 if it has 4 HPs AV 12) SO if anything it appears weaker guns got better against higher AV rather than much better against lower AV. Now you won't get games where all the damage results just bounce off you anymore, but honestly those games were not fun in most cases. Furthermore it is less likely that 1 shot will take out any particular vehicle, something that also was not fun in 5th.

 

What I do think is that lists with only a few vehicles took a bit of a hit as focus fire became much better. So having a lot of vehicles helps to make it so they need to shoot a lot at each one to stop it each turn, which is less shooting at other things. Also if the rumored easier 5+ cover is true, then that also helps vehicles.

[Koremu]

Here is something interesting I haven't seen before: Tank Hunters now rerolls armor penetration rolls, and can choose to reroll glances (in the hope of getting a penetrating)

 

In shooting and Close Combat.

 

Changes things somewhat

[meatball]

Here is something interesting I haven't seen before: Tank Hunters now rerolls armor penetration rolls, and can choose to reroll glances (in the hope of getting a penetrating)

 

In shooting and Close Combat.

 

Changes things somewhat

 

 

How will the reroll work with the "Venerable" rule for dreads?

[ShinyRhino]

Here is something interesting I haven't seen before: Tank Hunters now rerolls armor penetration rolls, and can choose to reroll glances (in the hope of getting a penetrating)

 

In shooting and Close Combat.

 

Changes things somewhat

 

 

How will the reroll work with the "Venerable" rule for dreads?

 

AP rolls are the S+d6 to affect the vehicle. Venerable forces a reroll on the damage chart. Nothing abut Venerable should change.

[Tanhausen]

AP rolls are the S+d6 to affect the vehicle. Venerable forces a reroll on the damage chart. Nothing abut Venerable should change.

 

Which means a Venerable got "worse": he's got 3 HP, which he will lose at a rate of 1 regardless of glancing/pen shots.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Two thoughts. First, between melta becoming +2 to the chart and this change to Tank Hunters, the target priority level of Eldar Fire Dragons just went from "Kill 'Em First" to "OMGKILLTHEMNOWNOWNOWNOWNOW!"

 

Second, thunder hammers and power mauls both have the old hammer rule -- now called Concussive -- that a vehicle struck, regardless of the actual chart roll, also suffers a Crew Shaken result. So, in my mind anyway, this translates as Concussive weapons will effectively do two damage results to a tank, which means they rip off TWO hull points PER HIT. Does that make sense, or I am overexaggerating things?

[Koremu]

Two thoughts. First, between melta becoming +2 to the chart and this change to Tank Hunters, the target priority level of Eldar Fire Dragons just went from "Kill 'Em First" to "OMGKILLTHEMNOWNOWNOWNOWNOW!"

 

Second, thunder hammers and power mauls both have the old hammer rule -- now called Concussive -- that a vehicle struck, regardless of the actual chart roll, also suffers a Crew Shaken result. So, in my mind anyway, this translates as Concussive weapons will effectively do two damage results to a tank, which means they rip off TWO hull points PER HIT. Does that make sense, or I am overexaggerating things?

I think you may be being optimistic there.

 

It'll be;

 

Hit the target - Crew Shaken

Hit & Glance - Crew Shaken, 1HP

Hit & Pen - Crew Shaken, 1HP & a damage roll

 

IMO

[Tanhausen]

Yep, agree with Koremu...only 1 HP you sneaky cheap-something xDDDDD

 

(looking at his hammenators...)

 

sigh

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Yep, agree with Koremu...only 1 HP you sneaky cheap-something xDDDDD

 

(looking at his hammenators...)

 

sigh

 

Well, with multiple models hitting. . . would each model get a Concussive hit and a damage roll? It wasn't a big deal before because these things didn't stack, didn't have other consequences. But if each Hammernator that lands at least one hit automatically rips off a hull pont. . . . :angry:

[ShinyRhino]

You have to score a Glancing or Penetrating hit to remove the hullpoint. If all you do is hit, but don't glance or penetrate, you only get the Shaken result, no hull points removed. They have essentially slightly divorced the damage table from the glancing hit/penetrating hit status. Glancing hits don't even get a roll on the table anymore.

 

The thing we should REALLY be worried about are Gauss weapons fired en masse. :(

[Koremu]

You have to score a Glancing or Penetrating hit to remove the hullpoint. If all you do is hit, but don't glance or penetrate, you only get the Shaken result, no hull points removed. They have essentially slightly divorced the damage table from the glancing hit/penetrating hit status. Glancing hits don't even get a roll on the table anymore.

 

The thing we should REALLY be worried about are Gauss weapons fired en masse. :(

Unless they've changes the effect of the Gauss rule.

 

EDIT:

Question: Has there been any change to the Gauss rule?

 

I haven't seen it in the book yet, but I remember reading in WD that Gauss weapons can auto-glance on a 6, making Necrons unbelievably awesome at tearing vehicles a new one.

 

Looks like a no.

[Tanhausen]

I'll check the BGB later, but I'd say the gauss rule will probably be explained in the Necron Codex/FAQ.

 

Still, to deliver 3 glancing hits vs a rhino or better...IIRC BS 3, means 37 shots... BS4 means 27 shots.

 

Lets be realistic, at 24", getting 27/37 shots means 2 squads...to kill 35-50 points? Fine with me!

 

Again: cheap (point wise) vehicles will not suffer. Expensive will have a nightmare, unless they have the "It won't die" rule (5+= +1HP).

 

I'm far more concerned about fliers than vehicle destruction fest.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'm far more concerned about fliers than vehicle destruction fest.

 

As am I, thus why I revisited the Storm Talon thread. It's an interceptor with a twin lascannon -- probably C:SM's number one option for knocking Storm Ravens and Valks out of the wild blue yonder.

[Tanhausen]

I'm far more concerned about fliers than vehicle destruction fest.

 

As am I, thus why I revisited the Storm Talon thread. It's an interceptor with a twin lascannon -- probably C:SM's number one option for knocking Storm Ravens and Valks out of the wild blue yonder.

 

Oh, certainly you can use the "fight fire with fire" approach...and fall into GW's marketing plans.

 

Which is fine with me..except that that I don't own any of the models (only the flying DE batman thing).

 

I'm trying to figure how to deal with a new threat with old weapons...

 

I'm pretty sure the squads configuration will have to change...its still that I don't know where to or how.

 

If we de-mech, DE are gonna have a beautiful day in the park with the venom's and so on...and so will MANY other armies (from SoB to IG to Orkz, you name it) who are good at dealing with swarms.

 

If we castle, we probably won't be able to cover enough board, hence losing quite and important factor given the new missions (4/6 are D3+2 objectives, 1 is bases and the other anihilation).

 

Being able to charge is going to be important...not only because you kill stuff, but because it grants you and aditional 2d6" movement. For many it might not be much, but for my DW terminators...its a HELL OF A LOT!

 

I insist: I'm liking A LOT what I'm reading and the general feeling is VERY positive!

 

Hopefully withing 3 months/20 games I'll think the same!

[Captain Idaho]

Just referring to the OP and my personal beliefs looking at the rules reveals we have (rumours?) I'd say I actually think armies that are mechanised won't be easier to stop because of Hull Points.

 

A Rhino which takes 3 glances in 5th edition is generally pretty much useless as a transport and I lose transports more from penetrates than anything else. Worst of all, 3 anti-tank units can neutralise 3 of my transports in a turn, including 5 Long Fang Missiles.

 

In 6th edition we have a situation where 3 of my transports have to suffer 9 glances to be destroyed, or suffer a penetrating hit on a more forgiving table to be destroyed. Scoring 9 Glances to destroy three 35pt vehicles is no mean feat though!

 

Bascially, the more vehicles on the table the harder they are to glance to death, whilst the damage table is more forgiving.