The New Vehicle Rules

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I have disposable income and an expensive hobby. I know this, my wife knows this, and so I don't mind being a sheep for a day and investing in some aircraft (I already have one, too, might as well use it).

 

And really, what other options do we have? Without an FAQ or new 'dex, the only Skyfire weapon we have is the new Flak Missile -- S7 AP4. That's fine and dandy for swatting Razorwings and Dakkajets out of the sky, but SRs and Valks are AV12; killing them with S7 is a hope and a prayer scenario. Lascannons have the strength to do it reliably, and the AP2 effect leans even more heavily in my favor. These points are especially salient because these AV12 flyers are all transports, and a destroyed flying transport causes all kinds of other destruction to its occupants.

[Panda_]

A parameter that Phelaar mentionned that's not stressed enough :

Ap2 : +1 on the damage table

Ap1 : +2 on the damage table

 

That means that Anti-tank weapons (Ap2 and Ap1) will remain as effective as before. They will be more likely to destroy the target outright.

Ap4-Ap3 weapons won't stand as real "antitank" anymore. Those will kill vehicules through Hull Points. Autocanons should become more effective than Missiles. As most of Loyalists use Rifflemen, their antitank capacity won't drop (in fact it raises as cover decrease to 5+).

 

Missiles loose some antitank capacity

Plasmas get some more (thanks to Rapid Fire buff, we will see lots of plasma)

 

I'm much more frightened of fliers. _If my understanding is correct_ ground units needs 6s to hit flyers. The side with the last fliers are going to get the battlefield suppremacy quickly (and as CSM, only the DP can get it done).

[Koremu]

I'm much more frightened of fliers. _If my understanding is correct_ ground units needs 6s to hit flyers. The side with the last fliers are going to get the battlefield suppremacy quickly (and as CSM, only the DP can get it done).

 

Apparently, any Missile Launcher in our armoury gets an anti-flyer missile option

 

 

-Flakk Missile Str 7 AP4 Heavy1 Skyfire

 

The user I'm quoting says that doesn't apply to Cyclone/Typhoon variants (although I remain to be convinced about that)

 

If true though, it means that a 4 Missile Launcher Devastator Squad just became your best anti-flyer tool.

 

I live in hope that the (canonical) abilities of the Whirlwind as an anti-flyer platform will also be realised. It has that big targeting array, after all.

[Phelaar]

The addition of hull points makes vehicles easier to destroy imo. The penetration damage table is more forgiving but that will only be favorable on units that have single shot weapons. Units with multiple shots won’t have to roll a damage result, all they have to do is remove the hull points. It’s harder to kill a vehicle with one shot, but multiple shots have a much better chance. A Rifle dread has a decent chance of scoring at least 3 glances vs AV11 in one round of shooting. Long Fang missile spam is as bad as it ever was. I think we’ll see a rise in the use of lascannons for single weapon units.

 

That said, I think it’s still a move in the right direction. The rules seem to be aimed at punishing light vehicles, but I think that’s what it should be. A Rhino should not be able to outlast a Land Raider. Light Transports had their day in 5th and it was a good day, but that day is over. They’ll still have some uses in 6th and I agree with Captain Idaho that the more vehicles there are on the table the better the chances are for survival, for all of them.

 

I really do hope there are more options for C:SM for killing flyers then having to buy a Storm Talon. So ugly…gah, I’d want it to be destroyed just so I wouldn’t have to look at it. Maybe the fortifications with AA guns. Or, if Missile Launchers do get a new type of AA missile taking more ML’s.

[Ran]

Holy crap, my DE need more Haywire guns

[maturin]

I really do hope there are more options for C:SM for killing flyers then having to buy a Storm Talon. So ugly…gah, I’d want it to be destroyed just so I wouldn’t have to look at it. Maybe the fortifications with AA guns. Or, if Missile Launchers do get a new type of AA missile taking more ML’s.

 

I'm gonna bank on my new Contemptor Mortis with dual Kheres Assault Cannons. It's FW, but we're pretty FW-friendly around these parts. If it's stationary, its weapons get the "AA mount" rule. That's not Skyfire, but I don't think any opponent would argue against their equivalency. Perhaps a note from FW will clear that up.

[Azatoth]

I think vehicles will go faster now.

 

1. The threat from high S AE weapons has increased, as they apply full S over the entire area.

2. It is much easier to land a glance then a penetation.

3. Monstrous Creatures have an inbuild AP2 attk with reroll for armor penetration.

4. The threat through psyker powers has increased, not only has the dispel range been nerfed. In case you didn't notice you can't dispel buff powers anymore apparently. Hello Mr. Swarmtyrant with S 9 Autohit, full A afterwards and MC AP 2, who will hit on a 3+, and rerolls A and penetration. Will he attack two transports if he gets the chance even though he looses the +1 A due to charge? I would.

[minigun762]

. I think we’ll see a rise in the use of lascannons for single weapon units.

 

I for one am happy to see this. The price of autocannons & missile launchers coupled with the older vehicle rules and generous cover saves made the lascannon too expensive and unreliable to be competitive and I for one hate to see any weapon push to the sidelines.

[Grey Mage]

Yar, thank the gods my LFs already run 2 lascannons with the missle launchers....

 

I dont thinkt he ML is going very far though, as its krak shot is still a nicely snappable weapon. Still, AP 2 just become much thinner on the ground, and Im having to seriously rethink swords vs fists.... but anyways, on to vehicles!

 

I seriously am having a hard time with this 3 glancing hits and your dead idea. Its so far in the other direction from where they are now that it seems outrageously nerfing. Im sure Im overreacting, but still. Thankfully my DP army never really relied on the toughness of tanks to get the job done, but my Dreadnaughts are going to have to preform very well to not get traded out for *admittedly more expensive* terminator squads.

 

Edit:

 

Since I dont see my copy of C:SM around at the moment Ill just ask you guys: does the signum on the devastator squad raise BS to 5 or hit on a 2? As theres a very big different vs flyers now isnt there.

[Hellios]

Since I dont see my copy of C:SM around at the moment Ill just ask you guys: does the signum on the devastator squad raise BS to 5 or hit on a 2? As theres a very big different vs flyers now isnt there.

 

I'm pretty sure it is BS5.

 

Also I've noted a rumour that states one of the USR rules allows squads that have it to take a leadership test and on having passed it choose one model to shoot at a different target. Now if this kind of thing is passed onto tactical squads it would make anti-tank heavy weapons much more viable in big 10 man squads...

 

On the flip side this might now replace Longfang split fire... so who knows.

[Tanhausen]

Since I dont see my copy of C:SM around at the moment Ill just ask you guys: does the signum on the devastator squad raise BS to 5 or hit on a 2? As theres a very big different vs flyers now isnt there.

 

I'm pretty sure it is BS5.

 

Also I've noted a rumour that states one of the USR rules allows squads that have it to take a leadership test and on having passed it choose one model to shoot at a different target. Now if this kind of thing is passed onto tactical squads it would make anti-tank heavy weapons much more viable in big 10 man squads...

 

On the flip side this might now replace Longfang split fire... so who knows.

 

BGB (not rumor) talks about split fire (or its version in Spanish).

 

@ Koremu

 

The S7/AP4 AA is only for missile launchers.

 

Not cyclon, not typhoon, not orkz... only missile launchers.

 

As a matter of fact, 99% certain the only weapons with AA are the ML and the Hydra.

 

As usual... the BGB lays the rails, but we'll have to wait and see how the first 1 or 2 codex roll out.

[Koremu]

The S7/AP4 AA is only for missile launchers.

 

Not cyclon, not typhoon, not orkz... only missile launchers.

 

As a matter of fact, 99% certain the only weapons with AA are the ML and the Hydra.

 

As usual... the BGB lays the rails, but we'll have to wait and see how the first 1 or 2 codex roll out.

Sucks. The Whirlwind should have AA fire capability

[dswanick]

Since I dont see my copy of C:SM around at the moment Ill just ask you guys: does the signum on the devastator squad raise BS to 5 or hit on a 2? As theres a very big different vs flyers now isnt there.

A model can use a signum in lieu of making a shooting attack of his own. If he does so, one model in his squad is Ballistic Skill 5 for the remainder of the Shooting phase.

So no use with Snap Fire/Overwatch/whatever it's called. Even if argued that it can be used outside of the owning players Shooting phase, the shot at BS1 should still override the model having a temporary BS5.

[MordentHex]

If grenades can be used in close combat + the 2d6 charge rang that will be now, I dont imagine many people are going to be willing to run their Rhino's all the way up into the other sides army like it use to be. Also blast weapon i hear get full strength for the whole blast template now. so things like battle cannons will start taking out rhinos again. That whole armored spearhead rush I think is going to get nurfed unless you send them in waves with the heavy armor in the front. A Multimelta/melta and plasmagun/cannons i now find much more desirable to take and worth the risk of overheating. Snapefire I think is going to get ignored by most players. hitting only on a 6 with only 1 shot per model is nothing. Being able to split fire my heavy from my tac squads with a leadership test is great though. With these changes i dont feel so vulnerable to vehicles now when i take my customary 2-3 thundefires for my HS. may be possible to get multiple glances on my opponents transports now with 8-12 templates flying at them and my missile launchers picking off the stragglers. ^_^

[Koremu]

Some Quick&Dirty Math Hammer here;

 

Salvo of 4 Missile Launchers at BS4 shooting a Rhino.

 

HP Caused vs. Probability

0 HP - 8/72 (1/9)

1 HP - 20/72 (5/18)

2 HP - 24/72 (2/6)

3 HP - 16/72 (2/9)

4 HP - 4/72 (1/18)

 

Combined Total of 3 & 4 HP (i.e. a single-salvo kill) - 20/72 (5/18)

 

So that's about 28% chance of a single-salvo Rhino kill with 4 missile launchers (or other STR8 weapon), ignoring for the present the change of a penetrating hit causing the vehicle to explode.

 

 

 

Change of various results from a single missile;

 

33% Miss

22% Hit & Bounce

11% Glance

11% Vehicle Shaken

5.5% Vehicle Stunned

5.5% Weapon Destroyed

5.5% Immobilised

5.5% Explodes

 

Note that this means that 1 in 8 of the HP damage causing hits above causes an explosion. This updates the top table to;

 

HP Caused vs. Probability

0 HP - 8/72 (1/6)

1 HP - 20/72 (5/18) of which 5/144 are explosions

2 HP - 24/72 (2/6) of which 3/72 (1/24) are explosions

3 HP - 16/72 (2/9)

4 HP - 4/72 (1/18)

 

Which makes the combined total of single salvo kills 51/144, or *just* over 1 in 3

 

 

 

EDIT, actually that's slightly high, as there is a 1/196 chance of scoring exactly 2 HP damaging shots on a Rhino and having both cause explosions.

[Retribution2011]

I have disposable income and an expensive hobby. I know this, my wife knows this, and so I don't mind being a sheep for a day and investing in some aircraft (I already have one, too, might as well use it).

 

And really, what other options do we have? Without an FAQ or new 'dex, the only Skyfire weapon we have is the new Flak Missile -- S7 AP4. That's fine and dandy for swatting Razorwings and Dakkajets out of the sky, but SRs and Valks are AV12; killing them with S7 is a hope and a prayer scenario. Lascannons have the strength to do it reliably, and the AP2 effect leans even more heavily in my favor. These points are especially salient because these AV12 flyers are all transports, and a destroyed flying transport causes all kinds of other destruction to its occupants.

 

I don't have the new rulebook but from what I saw of my store's copy last night, the new Flakk missile won't be the only AA weapon. There are the new 'Fortifications' rules you can use and make use of the Aegis Line & Bastion weapons, possibly others (I didn't look at it at length). I really am liking the feel of the new rules bringing 40K back to being fun to play rather than who has the killiest list.

[Koremu]

From the Codex: Space Marines FAQ;

 

...two combat squads split from the same unit can embark in the same transport vehcle...

 

 

Blessing of the Omnissiah can restore HP, but Rhino Repair cannot.

 

PotMS, Dozer Blades, Searchlights, H-K missiles and Smoke Launchers all use the rules from the BGB

 

Note in particular that the H-K Missile now fires explicitly at the BS of the vehicle - so Chronus just got a little better.

 

Also, Dreadnoughts can no longer run & pop smoke.

[Koremu]

I've just realised you can no longer Assault out of a stationary vehicle (unless it has the Assault Vehicle rule).

[DarkGuard]

I've just realised you can no longer Assault out of a stationary vehicle (unless it has the Assault Vehicle rule).

 

I know, it sucks.

 

I'm going to have to be more imaginative with my Honour Guard, or maybe just buy a Land Raider for them. Armour 2+ should help though, and if I disembark them behind the Rhino that could work.

[Koremu]

I've just realised you can no longer Assault out of a stationary vehicle (unless it has the Assault Vehicle rule).

 

I know, it sucks.

 

I'm going to have to be more imaginative with my Honour Guard, or maybe just buy a Land Raider for them. Armour 2+ should help though, and if I disembark them behind the Rhino that could work.

Yeah using a Rhino-wall seem to be the way forward with Assault Units now. I need another Vindicator.

[Voloch]

The S7/AP4 AA is only for missile launchers.

 

Not cyclon, not typhoon, not orkz... only missile launchers.

 

As a matter of fact, 99% certain the only weapons with AA are the ML and the Hydra.

 

As usual... the BGB lays the rails, but we'll have to wait and see how the first 1 or 2 codex roll out.

Sucks. The Whirlwind should have AA fire capability

Could have with the new codex

[Koremu]

The S7/AP4 AA is only for missile launchers.

 

Not cyclon, not typhoon, not orkz... only missile launchers.

 

As a matter of fact, 99% certain the only weapons with AA are the ML and the Hydra.

 

As usual... the BGB lays the rails, but we'll have to wait and see how the first 1 or 2 codex roll out.

Sucks. The Whirlwind should have AA fire capability

Could have with the new codex

Which is what, a year or more off? Unless you mean DA.

[confused_gordy]

I think the most important rule to effect transports is the way stun and shaken effects passengers.

 

If your shaken its passengers can only snap fire in their turn.

If your stunned its passengers cant shoot in their turn.

The way its worded this applies if they get out too.

 

This means you can move on from that vet chimera once you have stunned or shaken it, and feel much safer about the 4 melta guns hiding inside.

[dswanick]

Sucks. The Whirlwind should have AA fire capability

Imperial Armour, vol.2, Pg.66, Whirlwind Hyperious. Since Forge World is getting into the whole "Warhammer 40,000 Approved" thing. :tu:

[Koremu]

Sucks. The Whirlwind should have AA fire capability

Imperial Armour, vol.2, Pg.66, Whirlwind Hyperious. Since Forge World is getting into the whole "Warhammer 40,000 Approved" thing. :tu:

Yeah I know, but in the older fluff it was just a case of loading the thing with different missiles.

 

I expected GW to make that part of the standard WW loadout, with all the flyers coming in - it would have sold more Whirlwind kits!