The New Vehicle Rules

[Captain Idaho]

I've just realised you can no longer Assault out of a stationary vehicle (unless it has the Assault Vehicle rule).

 

I know, it sucks.

 

I'm going to have to be more imaginative with my Honour Guard, or maybe just buy a Land Raider for them. Armour 2+ should help though, and if I disembark them behind the Rhino that could work.

 

I was worried about this at first, but then I thought about it and realised Honour Guard just got a lot more mobile with a mere Rhino:

 

Move the Rhino squad up 18" first turn and if the Rhino dies you still get to move in your turn then charge (unless you are auto-pinned? Still awaiting delivery of my book). If the Rhino doesn't die, I can put the squad a further 12" forward (including disembarking) for a charge on the 3rd turn.

 

Not too bad, though of course we have the problems with plasma weapons etc before they charge using the latter method.

 

Or I might just use a Landraider!

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I think the Land Raider is the better option, really. Better armor, more hull points, and the assault ramp make it superior, even if it never fires a single gun. The way they killed assaulting out of anything not an Assault Vehicle makes me a tad angry -- my Banshees won't be seeing use any time soon -- so a solid assault unit in a Raider really is worth its.weight in gold.

[DarkGuard]

But the Land Raider is still a lot more expensive than a Rhino. I'd much rather keep my Sternguard squad in my army, not have to trade it out for a Land Raider.

[DerekLee688]

I hate to ask, but as I don't have a rule book... What BS does Machine Spirit fire? Is it still up to the codex and remain the same?

[MordentHex]

But the Land Raider is still a lot more expensive than a Rhino. I'd much rather keep my Sternguard squad in my army, not have to trade it out for a Land Raider.

agreed and im even more unwilling to pay the ridiculous price for one.

[ShinyRhino]

I've just realised you can no longer Assault out of a stationary vehicle (unless it has the Assault Vehicle rule).

 

I know, it sucks.

 

I'm going to have to be more imaginative with my Honour Guard, or maybe just buy a Land Raider for them. Armour 2+ should help though, and if I disembark them behind the Rhino that could work.

 

I was worried about this at first, but then I thought about it and realised Honour Guard just got a lot more mobile with a mere Rhino:

 

Move the Rhino squad up 18" first turn and if the Rhino dies you still get to move in your turn then charge (unless you are auto-pinned? Still awaiting delivery of my book). If the Rhino doesn't die, I can put the squad a further 12" forward (including disembarking) for a charge on the 3rd turn.

 

Not too bad, though of course we have the problems with plasma weapons etc before they charge using the latter method.

 

Or I might just use a Landraider!

 

I'm a little confused on this scenario.

With the new rules, itlooks like this:

 

Turn One

Move Rhino 12" in the Movement phase.

Move Rhino 6" in the Shooting phase. Pssengers may not disembark when a vehicle moves >6" (or will move >6").

 

Turn Two

Honour Guard disembark fully within 6" of the access points in the movement phase (no more measuring to the back end of your base for +2" movement). Disembarking IS your move for the turn.

Honour Guard Run in the shooting phase.

 

Turn Three

Honour Guard move 6" in the Movement phase.

Honour Guard charge 2d6" in the Assault phase.

 

Unless you get shot out of the Rhino early (and take a Pinning test, no auto-Pin), it'll be a while before you can charge anything. land Raiders got a little more mandatory for assault-oriented units.

[StrayCatt]

Move Rhino 6" in the Shooting phase. Pssengers may not disembark when a vehicle moves >6" (or will move >6").[\b]

 

"or will move" isn't in the rules.

 

"If the vehicle had not moved before the unit disembarked, the vehicle can then move normally." (pg79 BRB)

 

No other restrictions are mentioned or implied ...

[Seahawk]

All vehicles except walkers are, at worst, hit on a 3+ now in CC. That bites. No more scooting around the MC and hoping it misses.

[ShinyRhino]

Move Rhino 6" in the Shooting phase. Pssengers may not disembark when a vehicle moves >6" (or will move >6").[\b]

 

"or will move" isn't in the rules.

 

"If the vehicle had not moved before the unit disembarked, the vehicle can then move normally." (pg79 BRB)

 

No other restrictions are mentioned or implied ...

 

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Unless you get shot out of the Rhino early (and take a Pinning test, no auto-Pin), it'll be a while before you can charge anything. land Raiders got a little more mandatory for assault-oriented units.

 

 

Honestly, with the hull point system being as decisive as it is right off the bat, I foresee a lot of people swtiching over to deep striking TDA squads. The improvement in Turn Two Reserves arrival and the Warlord trait for rerolling Reserves both support the viability of this course of action. I for one am not taking a Land Raider in the new Chaos list I'm building right now; I'm planning on DSing them, with their deep attack supported by a winged DP and a jump Sorcerer in with some Raptors (and I'm even considering DSing the Raptors too, for the melta goodness).

[DarkGuard]

I've just realised you can no longer Assault out of a stationary vehicle (unless it has the Assault Vehicle rule).

 

I know, it sucks.

 

I'm going to have to be more imaginative with my Honour Guard, or maybe just buy a Land Raider for them. Armour 2+ should help though, and if I disembark them behind the Rhino that could work.

 

I was worried about this at first, but then I thought about it and realised Honour Guard just got a lot more mobile with a mere Rhino:

 

Move the Rhino squad up 18" first turn and if the Rhino dies you still get to move in your turn then charge (unless you are auto-pinned? Still awaiting delivery of my book). If the Rhino doesn't die, I can put the squad a further 12" forward (including disembarking) for a charge on the 3rd turn.

 

Not too bad, though of course we have the problems with plasma weapons etc before they charge using the latter method.

 

Or I might just use a Landraider!

 

I'm a little confused on this scenario.

With the new rules, itlooks like this:

 

Turn One

Move Rhino 12" in the Movement phase.

Move Rhino 6" in the Shooting phase. Pssengers may not disembark when a vehicle moves >6" (or will move >6").

 

Turn Two

Honour Guard disembark fully within 6" of the access points in the movement phase (no more measuring to the back end of your base for +2" movement). Disembarking IS your move for the turn.

Honour Guard Run in the shooting phase.

 

Turn Three

Honour Guard move 6" in the Movement phase.

Honour Guard charge 2d6" in the Assault phase.

 

Unless you get shot out of the Rhino early (and take a Pinning test, no auto-Pin), it'll be a while before you can charge anything. land Raiders got a little more mandatory for assault-oriented units.

 

Most the time that's when my Honour Guard are charging. They're a counter attack unit most of the time, which means that's an ideal time to charge into combat and tip the fight.

 

And DerekLee688, PotMS is functionally the same, but is now a USR and worded differently.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I like the new hullpoint system. Vehicles will be harder to silence, but easier to destroy. This means my tanks will spend less time sitting around doing nothing, with 1's on them (so I actually get to use them.) And destroying tanks will be more reliable if you dump a lot of firepower into them. In 5th, the difficulty of actually destroying armor is far too random. Such large random elements greatly reduce the role of strategy in the game.

 

But there is a factor that people don't seem to be taking into account: shifts in the metagame. Now that armor saturation won't be so godly, and that footslogging troops got more offensively powerful due to rapidfire, snapfire, focus fire, precision shots, etc, we're going to see a lot more lists that focus on massed infantry without as much armor saturation. If you're bringing the same amount of anti tank firepower you are now, you'll fail against those new lists that don't use it as much. And so people will pack less AV, which means the value of lists that DO use armor will go up again. In other words, vs a current 5th Ed all comers list will have enough AV to wreck a current 5th ed all comer's list's tanks. But once we adjust to 6th ed all comers lists that will require more anti infantry (especially multi hit low ap weapons to deal with 2+ armor saves), there will be less AV weaponry on the field to generate the volume of glances needed.

 

It's gonna be good.

[DerekLee688]

I like the new hullpoint system. Vehicles will be harder to silence, but easier to destroy. This means my tanks will spend less time sitting around doing nothing, with 1's on them (so I actually get to use them.) And destroying tanks will be more reliable if you dump a lot of firepower into them. In 5th, the difficulty of actually destroying armor is far too random. Such large random elements greatly reduce the role of strategy in the game.

 

But there is a factor that people don't seem to be taking into account: shifts in the metagame. Now that armor saturation won't be so godly, and that footslogging troops got more offensively powerful due to rapidfire, snapfire, focus fire, precision shots, etc, we're going to see a lot more lists that focus on massed infantry without as much armor saturation. If you're bringing the same amount of anti tank firepower you are now, you'll fail against those new lists that don't use it as much. And so people will pack less AV, which means the value of lists that DO use armor will go up again. In other words, vs a current 5th Ed all comers list will have enough AV to wreck a current 5th ed all comer's list's tanks. But once we adjust to 6th ed all comers lists that will require more anti infantry (especially multi hit low ap weapons to deal with 2+ armor saves), there will be less AV weaponry on the field to generate the volume of glances needed.

 

It's gonna be good.

 

Going to disagree with you, but only half way. Killing TDA now needs more anti tank than anything else. In CC you can only count on axes, thunder hammers, and power fists(with only the TH and PF ignoring FNP). Now melta is looking like prime cut and airborne lascannons look to be the best Anti air. Shooting looks to give PA the best chance of not being challenged to death, not being reduced to I:1, and still ignoring their armor save & FNP.

 

People will use TDA more, for now at least. Melta is your best bet on killing them and you will be thankful to have it if they ride land raiders into battle. Now that melta gets double dice on even monoliths and the only vehciles getting anti melta plating are all AV12 or less.

 

If you aren't trying to kill TDA with S:8+ AP:2(or better), has massing wounds gotten alot easier?

Has FNP the save changed from 4+ to 5+?

Over Watch adds hits?

Snap fire adds more hits?

You can snap fire Heavy bolters on the move?

Rapid fire once at full range on the move?

You can "snap fire" flame template weapons and get auto hits on top of what you roll?

 

Double heavy bolter's on land speeders or double multi-melta's?

 

Anyone else looking forward to taking more dreadnoughts and tech priests? Two or three will give GKTDA something to CC fight for more than a couple of turns.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Going to disagree with you, but only half way. Killing TDA now needs more anti tank than anything else.

 

I think there's a pretty big distinction between the weapons best for killing terminators (ap2, plasma) and anti tank weapons (lascannon, meltas.) The plasma is just much more efficient at it. People will use terminators more, and the best way to kill them will be the same as before...plasma and weight of wounds. Power weapons were never a great option for killing terminators unless they were on a unit with great initiative or saves.

 

If you aren't trying to kill TDA with S:8+ AP:2(or better), has massing wounds gotten alot easier?

 

It has gotten easier. I don't have the exact answer to your questions off the top of my head, but it's going to be a lot more viable to do more shooting with basic infantry now, meaning you don't have to get into rapidfire range or have long range assault weapon troops in order to pile on wounds.

 

Actually, I think the need of more anti infantry weapons (either weight of small arms or plasma) to counter 2+ armor units will be one of the main reasons to sacrifice less efficient anti tank weapons like lascannons and meltas. Plasma costs half as much as a lascannon, can move and shoot, and can rapidfire. Plasma guns cost a bit more than meltas, but double their shots at the same range and can snipe things at 24". And plasma pistols are now worth taking on sergeants due to precision firing rules (and possibly gunslinger.)

[DarkGuard]

Well I found out the most annoying thing about the new vehicle rules today. No, it wasn't the Hull Point system, I actually like that. It was the not being able to assault after disembarking from a stationary vehicle, like a Rhino. The situation I was in called for it, but I knew I'd have to sit around outside first, when I had two Leman Russes looking at my units. It was a miracle I was able to get anything into combat at all in the end. The real kicker came when he scattered shots into my unit that was sitting out of LoS behind my tank with a blast weapon, killing them all because I can't roll 5+ cover saves to save my (or my troop's) life. The thing is, why was it 5+, surely it should be more.

 

But yeah, that's incredibly annoying, will probably look into a Land Raider for my Honour Guard now.

[Voloch]

I don't know DG. With S8 weapons being able to glance it to death I am considering not to use the LR anymore. Too many points, too easy to kill.

I'm certainly more reserved when it comes to Redeemer/Crusader. Standard template might be the favourite now. Also regarding the TL-LC vs fliers.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Well I found out the most annoying thing about the new vehicle rules today. No, it wasn't the Hull Point system, I actually like that. It was the not being able to assault after disembarking from a stationary vehicle, like a Rhino. The situation I was in called for it, but I knew I'd have to sit around outside first, when I had two Leman Russes looking at my units. It was a miracle I was able to get anything into combat at all in the end. The real kicker came when he scattered shots into my unit that was sitting out of LoS behind my tank with a blast weapon, killing them all because I can't roll 5+ cover saves to save my (or my troop's) life. The thing is, why was it 5+, surely it should be more.

 

But yeah, that's incredibly annoying, will probably look into a Land Raider for my Honour Guard now.

 

 

I'm not the kind of person to say I told you so, but. . . .

 

 

I think the Land Raider is the better option, really. Better armor, more hull points, and the assault ramp make it superior, even if it never fires a single gun.

 

. . . but I told you so.

[DarkGuard]

I don't know DG. With S8 weapons being able to glance it to death I am considering not to use the LR anymore. Too many points, too easy to kill.

I'm certainly more reserved when it comes to Redeemer/Crusader. Standard template might be the favourite now. Also regarding the TL-LC vs fliers.

 

Well, S8 weapons won't be reliable, and the LR is still 4 HP. I used three Rhinos today, which have 3 HP each and worst armour and it wasn't until Turn 5 that they were dropping because of losing all their HP.

 

. . . but I told you so.

 

:D

 

I'll still try to make the Rhino work, just need a few games to see whether it will work or whether it would be better to fork out the money and points for a Crusader.

[Koremu]

I don't know DG. With S8 weapons being able to glance it to death I am considering not to use the LR anymore.

Average of 36 STR8 shots to kill a Land Raider by HP damage.

[WarriorFish]

Anyone else looking forward to taking more dreadnoughts and tech priests?

Definitely! Though I used the MotF a lot during 5th and seldom took to the table without at least one Dreadnought so I can't wait to get them going in 6th.

 

I think the new vehicle rules are good, but I've yet to play a 6th game (still absorbing the rulebook, so next week hopefully) to experience them for myself. Being able to have infantry and armour working together properly (thanks to new Rapid Fire rules) is what's got me excited. Finally, decent mechanised warfare!

[Captain Idaho]

I'm not really feeling the Rhino bore assault unit any more. I guess it's Landraiders or Drop Pods.

 

I don't have too much of a problem with that, but I'm running a more balanced list and not an assault only army. It is annoying needing to take an additional 250pts vehicle just to use Honour Guard every game though.

 

Plasma and massed shots are everywhere now, so not taking a Landraider for an assault unit looks like an industrial accident waiting to happen.

[ak-73]

I like the new hullpoint system. Vehicles will be harder to silence, but easier to destroy. This means my tanks will spend less time sitting around doing nothing, with 1's on them (so I actually get to use them.) And destroying tanks will be more reliable if you dump a lot of firepower into them. In 5th, the difficulty of actually destroying armor is far too random. Such large random elements greatly reduce the role of strategy in the game.

 

But there is a factor that people don't seem to be taking into account: shifts in the metagame. Now that armor saturation won't be so godly, and that footslogging troops got more offensively powerful due to rapidfire, snapfire, focus fire, precision shots, etc, we're going to see a lot more lists that focus on massed infantry without as much armor saturation. If you're bringing the same amount of anti tank firepower you are now, you'll fail against those new lists that don't use it as much. And so people will pack less AV, which means the value of lists that DO use armor will go up again. In other words, vs a current 5th Ed all comers list will have enough AV to wreck a current 5th ed all comer's list's tanks. But once we adjust to 6th ed all comers lists that will require more anti infantry (especially multi hit low ap weapons to deal with 2+ armor saves), there will be less AV weaponry on the field to generate the volume of glances needed.

 

It's gonna be good.

 

Which why I foresee a return of the Assault Cannon. It is effective against both infantry and light to medium vehicles and a backup solution against heavily armoured vehicles. Also let's not forget the primary weapon for many other armies against TDA is still volume of fire, not AP2 or anything fancy. I fear 6E might become the volume of fire edition.

 

 

Alex

[LoreDraconis]

So...sounds like what you all are saying is...6th edition will be the balanced edition :D

[WarriorFish]

I'm not really feeling the Rhino bore assault unit any more. I guess it's Landraiders or Drop Pods.

Agreed, though there's always the option of yomping across the table if you're brave enough... Not being able to assault out of Drop Pods before means they take less of a relative hit so they might seem a bit better now.

 

As for Assault Cannons I'm not sure when they ever went out of style! They've changed over the years but have always remained useful :( That and 5th Edition always felt quite "quantity over quality" with regards to shooting thanks to cover saves at the drop of a hat. With focus fire now you can catch models out of cover so that's handy.

 

I still think 6th is good for the mechanised/hybrid list, just that your infantry is more likely to be marching besides their transport rather than in it... but considering that your average 5th trooper saw battles from the inside of his APC that's not exactly difficult :D Though there are still advantages to riding in a metal box, as small arms got better with precision and focus fire abilities so they'll still provide protection if that's what you need.

[DerekLee688]

Going to disagree with you, but only half way. Killing TDA now needs more anti tank than anything else.

 

I think there's a pretty big distinction between the weapons best for killing terminators (ap2, plasma) and anti tank weapons (lascannon, meltas.) The plasma is just much more efficient at it. People will use terminators more, and the best way to kill them will be the same as before...plasma and weight of wounds. Power weapons were never a great option for killing terminators unless they were on a unit with great initiative or saves.

 

If you aren't trying to kill TDA with S:8+ AP:2(or better), has massing wounds gotten alot easier?

 

It has gotten easier. I don't have the exact answer to your questions off the top of my head, but it's going to be a lot more viable to do more shooting with basic infantry now, meaning you don't have to get into rapidfire range or have long range assault weapon troops in order to pile on wounds.

 

Actually, I think the need of more anti infantry weapons (either weight of small arms or plasma) to counter 2+ armor units will be one of the main reasons to sacrifice less efficient anti tank weapons like lascannons and meltas. Plasma costs half as much as a lascannon, can move and shoot, and can rapidfire. Plasma guns cost a bit more than meltas, but double their shots at the same range and can snipe things at 24". And plasma pistols are now worth taking on sergeants due to precision firing rules (and possibly gunslinger.)

 

Now that plasma has +1 to vehicle pen, I think it should be included as AT too. I was just fearing TDA with Feel no Pain or two wounds, which is more than possible and will be making appearences somewhere if not at a venue near you.

 

Now you can move and shoot two multi melta's with land speeders, that's 40pts. per melta shot. Sternguard make 30pts. a pop for a melta shot, two can be melta of any flavor. Sternguard are good at putting high volume of shots and having access to melta.

 

I already know alot of new rules make mass wounds easier, but as someone math-hammered it out once, but it takes around 30 non armor penning wounds to get through 2+ save and FNP(I'm sure this has changed if the FNP save has gone up). Because 2+ armor and FNP has gotten harder I'm preparing to encounter it more and answer it in some way in my all rounder list.

 

I get the feeling that mass wounding has gotten alot easier because of how many extra ways of shooting have been added and could very well be the statistical/tactical method of killing FNP, two wound, TDA. However, even though glancing vehicles to death is alot easier to acomplish for anyone not necron, higher strength/more potent AT is required to get the same vehicle knock outs as we are used to and autocannons aren't cutting it. Actually I'm sure that mass wounding has become a BETTER option vs TDA, and a WORSE of an option for AT duties because of the HP/seprate pen table. You got to get those pens and which nessesitates stronger weapons or melta.