The New Vehicle Rules

[Voloch]

So...sounds like what you all are saying is...6th edition will be the balanced edition :P

ROFLMAO hahahahaha ROFLMAO hahahahahahahaahha ...... ROFLMAO .... hahahahahahaa (stomach pains).

[Voloch]

Now that plasma has +1 to vehicle pen,

 

Wrong, +1 on the damage table.

[Koremu]

Now that plasma has +1 to vehicle pen,

 

Wrong, +1 on the damage table.

Actually Plasma has the same damage roll it always had, it's AP3 and below got nerfed

[ak-73]

FWIW, I am expecting (read: uneducated guessing) less lightly-armoured vehicles now and the meta moving towards lots of foot infantry for volume of fire and saturation with AV 13+ vehicles for those lists who can bring them (heh, Necrons). AV 10/11 only for lists who can spam it at relatively low costs (Deldar comes to mind), so won't care about hull point damage at all.

 

I might be wrong, take with huge grain of salt.

 

 

Alex

[Voloch]

Now that plasma has +1 to vehicle pen,

 

Wrong, +1 on the damage table.

Actually Plasma has the same damage roll it always had, it's AP3 and below got nerfed

p74, lower left:

".. AP2 weapons scores a penetrating hit add +1 modifier to the roll on the Vehicle Damage Table".

[Grey Mage]

Now that plasma has +1 to vehicle pen,

 

Wrong, +1 on the damage table.

Actually Plasma has the same damage roll it always had, it's AP3 and below got nerfed

p74, lower left:

".. AP2 weapons scores a penetrating hit add +1 modifier to the roll on the Vehicle Damage Table".

Yes, what hes saying is that you cant explode a vehicle without ap 2 or 1.

[Koremu]

Now that plasma has +1 to vehicle pen,

 

Wrong, +1 on the damage table.

Actually Plasma has the same damage roll it always had, it's AP3 and below got nerfed

p74, lower left:

".. AP2 weapons scores a penetrating hit add +1 modifier to the roll on the Vehicle Damage Table".

Yes, what hes saying is that you cant explode a vehicle without ap 2 or 1.

Well, actually they've taken wrecked off the damage table and moved everything else up.

 

Fact is though that the change of an effective kill on a penetrating hit for AP1 & 2 weapons is the same as it ever was, because only a 6 is a kill now (and everything else moves up one)

 

Hence, AP3 and below has been nerfed.

[DerekLee688]

FWIW, I am expecting (read: uneducated guessing) less lightly-armoured vehicles now and the meta moving towards lots of foot infantry for volume of fire and saturation with AV 13+ vehicles for those lists who can bring them (heh, Necrons). AV 10/11 only for lists who can spam it at relatively low costs (Deldar comes to mind), so won't care about hull point damage at all.

 

I might be wrong, take with huge grain of salt.

 

 

Alex

 

Most of what I've read of people's 6e games is that their rhinos can last until turn 5. Glancing to death has gotten harder because you can't stun lock or wreck/explode.

 

Plasma is now a true light AT weapon, maybe it should replace auto-cannons now? AC's still kill rhino's well, but those are points that can be spent on something that can kill MEQ, MC's, TDA, and AV:12+. Kinda wish that the AC was at least AP:3 or had rending ammo or something. AC took a hard nerf in this edition. Your riflemen will still be the swatters of rhino's, killa' cans, hordes, and land speeders.

 

Land Raiders will be taken more as they are the only assault vehicle some marine codex's have, if they want non jump pack assault troops, on top of LR's being able to transport all our 2+ armor save infantry(the only thing that can carry TDA). I'm predicting double MM land speeders replacing MM/HF speeders because they are cheaper at getting melta shots than attack bikes are, and cheaper melta is the bane of Land Raiders.

 

You need more AP3 because rhino assault squads will want to put on jump packs or get on bikes.

You need more Melta because the only AP2 CC weapons we have are I:1, all assault infantry will be riding in land raiders now, and you need to pen AV:14 to kill the big fortifications.

[ak-73]

FWIW, I am expecting (read: uneducated guessing) less lightly-armoured vehicles now and the meta moving towards lots of foot infantry for volume of fire and saturation with AV 13+ vehicles for those lists who can bring them (heh, Necrons). AV 10/11 only for lists who can spam it at relatively low costs (Deldar comes to mind), so won't care about hull point damage at all.

 

I might be wrong, take with huge grain of salt.

 

 

Alex

 

Most of what I've read of people's 6e games is that their rhinos can last until turn 5. Glancing to death has gotten harder because you can't stun lock or wreck/explode.

 

Plasma is now a true light AT weapon, maybe it should replace auto-cannons now? AC's still kill rhino's well, but those are points that can be spent on something that can kill MEQ, MC's, TDA, and AV:12+. Kinda wish that the AC was at least AP:3 or had rending ammo or something. AC took a hard nerf in this edition. Your riflemen will still be the swatters of rhino's, killa' cans, hordes, and land speeders.

 

Assault Cannon is still Rending. Anyway nice feedback on the survivability of transports, even if it is somewhat anecdotal, thanks. The question is what happens if you play against armies that are designed to take advantage of hull point rules; IG can certainly create such lists. Again, it's all to be taken with huge grain of salt. Plasma might be called for but maybe you would rather still field melta to deal with those really heavy enemy vehicles. Time will tell.

 

Alex

[Koremu]

FWIW, I am expecting (read: uneducated guessing) less lightly-armoured vehicles now and the meta moving towards lots of foot infantry for volume of fire and saturation with AV 13+ vehicles for those lists who can bring them (heh, Necrons). AV 10/11 only for lists who can spam it at relatively low costs (Deldar comes to mind), so won't care about hull point damage at all.

 

I might be wrong, take with huge grain of salt.

 

 

Alex

 

Most of what I've read of people's 6e games is that their rhinos can last until turn 5. Glancing to death has gotten harder because you can't stun lock or wreck/explode.

 

Plasma is now a true light AT weapon, maybe it should replace auto-cannons now? AC's still kill rhino's well, but those are points that can be spent on something that can kill MEQ, MC's, TDA, and AV:12+. Kinda wish that the AC was at least AP:3 or had rending ammo or something. AC took a hard nerf in this edition. Your riflemen will still be the swatters of rhino's, killa' cans, hordes, and land speeders.

 

Assault Cannon is still Rending. Anyway nice feedback on the survivability of transports, even if it is somewhat anecdotal, thanks. The question is what happens if you play against armies that are designed to take advantage of hull point rules; IG can certainly create such lists. Again, it's all to be taken with huge grain of salt. Plasma might be called for but maybe you would rather still field melta to deal with those really heavy enemy vehicles. Time will tell.

 

Alex

It's worth noting that Rending makes the attack AP2, so gets the +1 on the damage table

[DarkGuard]

FWIW, I am expecting (read: uneducated guessing) less lightly-armoured vehicles now and the meta moving towards lots of foot infantry for volume of fire and saturation with AV 13+ vehicles for those lists who can bring them (heh, Necrons). AV 10/11 only for lists who can spam it at relatively low costs (Deldar comes to mind), so won't care about hull point damage at all.

 

I might be wrong, take with huge grain of salt.

 

 

Alex

 

Most of what I've read of people's 6e games is that their rhinos can last until turn 5. Glancing to death has gotten harder because you can't stun lock or wreck/explode.

 

Plasma is now a true light AT weapon, maybe it should replace auto-cannons now? AC's still kill rhino's well, but those are points that can be spent on something that can kill MEQ, MC's, TDA, and AV:12+. Kinda wish that the AC was at least AP:3 or had rending ammo or something. AC took a hard nerf in this edition. Your riflemen will still be the swatters of rhino's, killa' cans, hordes, and land speeders.

 

Assault Cannon is still Rending. Anyway nice feedback on the survivability of transports, even if it is somewhat anecdotal, thanks. The question is what happens if you play against armies that are designed to take advantage of hull point rules; IG can certainly create such lists. Again, it's all to be taken with huge grain of salt. Plasma might be called for but maybe you would rather still field melta to deal with those really heavy enemy vehicles. Time will tell.

 

Alex

It's worth noting that Rending makes the attack AP2, so gets the +1 on the damage table

 

It's also worth noting that to wound rolls with an assault cannon aren't AP2 because of rending. Against vehicles it just adds +D3 vehicle penetration, not AP2. :P

[DerekLee688]

Assault Cannon is still Rending. Anyway nice feedback on the survivability of transports, even if it is somewhat anecdotal, thanks. The question is what happens if you play against armies that are designed to take advantage of hull point rules; IG can certainly create such lists. Again, it's all to be taken with huge grain of salt. Plasma might be called for but maybe you would rather still field melta to deal with those really heavy enemy vehicles. Time will tell.

 

Alex

 

I ment to say I wish Autocannons had AP3 or rending, right now it's a light armor only weapon(not even anti-MC). If you could relyablely wound marines/Daemon Princes with it, they would be taken alot more. The only AA weapon to ignore a MC's armor save is an Airborne Lasscannon or a frortress mounted one? Wouldn't be nice if the quad gun could KILL a flying MC instead of just knocking it down?

 

I'm in favor of more melta over plasma because of it has more use against the same targets plus tougher ones, and vehicle "get's hot". I plan to use melta as half of my AT needs and as a supplement to C:SM lack luster assault qualities. Don't get me wrong, it's not like they are Tau or anything, but Tac marines and one Honor Guard squad, with my love of typhoons will only go so far.

 

I plan on my assault elements to have AP3 swords/relicblades and leave my shooting elements to handle any assault infantry with 2+ armor saves or I:5 or higher. I may make my troops bikers and have them as anti-vehicle units, full of melta and rushing forward to stick grenades into Leman-russ's tail pipes. My (current) ideal AT mix would be 1/3 melta, 1/3 ML, and 1/3 PA with grenades. Of course, fliers will probably make a mess of this.

[Grey Mage]

Alot of Flying MCs only have 4+ saves, or worse....

[DarkGuard]

Alot of Flying MCs only have 4+ saves, or worse....

 

I can only think of the Harpy. The Tyrant has a 3+ save, and if Daemon Princes count (I think I heard don't) they have a 3+ save.

[DerekLee688]

Alot of Flying MCs only have 4+ saves, or worse....

 

I can only think of the Harpy. The Tyrant has a 3+ save, and if Daemon Princes count (I think I heard don't) they have a 3+ save.

 

Yes, Daemon Princes are the main flying MC's I'm worried about. What other chaos HQ's will they use untill their mythical next codex comes out?

[Cmdr Shepard]

Alot of Flying MCs only have 4+ saves, or worse....

 

I can only think of the Harpy. The Tyrant has a 3+ save, and if Daemon Princes count (I think I heard don't) they have a 3+ save.

Winged Daemon Princes are Flying MC only if they come from Chaos Daemons Codex. Chaos Space Marine version is Jump MC only.

[Captain Idaho]

And can the Daemon Codex version take the 3+ save upgrade with it's wings? I presume so, but I seem to remember those Daemon Princes being easier to kill? Pah, I dunno!

[Cmdr Shepard]

And can the Daemon Codex version take the 3+ save upgrade with it's wings? I presume so, but I seem to remember those Daemon Princes being easier to kill? Pah, I dunno!

I'm not very expert on daemons but I suppose winged greater daemon will be the "big stuff" in daemon armies. Lords of Change have a 3++ invul save right?

I think daemon princes will be easier to kill but the "big stuff", well I don't know :)

[Captain Idaho]

Ah, just had a check in a Codex I have access to and the Daemon Prince from Codex Daemons is 170pts for a 3+ save AND flier, and that's without any additional abilities. What's more, only a 5+ invulnerable save.

 

Not particularly difficult to kill in assaults actually, when you think 10 Space Marines hit on a 4+ and wound on a 3+ with 9 attacks (minus the challenge which the Sergeant tactically declined and minus whatever attacks kill a Marine). And if you lose, just auto retreat and hope you escape so you can shoot the foolish traitor to death. Not terrible.

 

It's the Bloodthirster I'm worried about!

[Cmdr Shepard]

Ah, just had a check in a Codex I have access to and the Daemon Prince from Codex Daemons is 170pts for a 3+ save AND flier, and that's without any additional abilities. What's more, only a 5+ invulnerable save.

 

Not particularly difficult to kill in assaults actually, when you think 10 Space Marines hit on a 4+ and wound on a 3+ with 9 attacks (minus the challenge which the Sergeant tactically declined and minus whatever attacks kill a Marine). And if you lose, just auto retreat and hope you escape so you can shoot the foolish traitor to death. Not terrible.

 

It's the Bloodthirster I'm worried about!

 

It is though. With 24" fly, 2d6 run it my be in charge range within 2 turns. Anything with I6 or above may help, like GK halberds, for example.

[Captain Idaho]

Not really that hard to kill, since it hits only on a 3+ in assaults with "only" 5 attacks, a 10 man Tactical squad will still get 6-7 attacks back on average át S6. Ok, that's an average of only a couple wounds, but that's quite a loss to take when you can voluntarily fallback and finish it off with shooting in your following turn. That's fairly substantial.

 

Another alternative is to hide in your transports still. A Daemon Prince needs to halve it's attacks to double strength to stand a chance against a Landraider for example. You lose a Rhino then disembark from the back before rapid firing the bejesus out of the Daemon Prince.

 

It's going to be impossible to stop them chargig, so I say hit them as hard as you can when they are most vulnerable; the turn after they charge!

 

Like I said, it's the nasty old Bloodthirster I'm scared of! These tactics are harder to pull off against that nasty piece of work, though still workable.

 

Damn, maybe I need to re-think my list to keep the Librarian and Null Zone!

[thade]

It's also worth noting that to wound rolls with an assault cannon aren't AP2 because of rending. Against vehicles it just adds +D3 vehicle penetration, not AP2. :D

I thought the new Rending rules were a bit clearer on this? Book's not at hand here at work, however I thought it said "AP2" and didn't really spell out it was or wasn't so depending on what the target was?

 

I can check when I get home, but it'll bug me for hours now. :cuss

[Iron Father Ferrum]

It's also worth noting that to wound rolls with an assault cannon aren't AP2 because of rending. Against vehicles it just adds +D3 vehicle penetration, not AP2. :D

I thought the new Rending rules were a bit clearer on this? Book's not at hand here at work, however I thought it said "AP2" and didn't really spell out it was or wasn't so depending on what the target was?

 

I can check when I get home, but it'll bug me for hours now. :devil:

 

DG's right. It states that To Wound rolls of a 6 count as AP2, and you don't make To Wound rolls against vehicles...