Some help against Tyranids

[Vourne]

Hi. I'm new to Bolter and Chainsword, so this is also an introduction. I've played and collected Warhammer for some time now, but have recently branched into 40K.

 

I've had some unpainted marines hanging around for a while now and they deserve some action. After reading Nick Kyme's Tome of Fire trilogy I decided to start a Salamanders army.

A friend of mine is an experienced 40k player. My first encounter is going to be against his Tyranid horde! We've opted for a 1500 point battle.

 

The following force is based on the models I currently have available, although I've no problem with buying new models if this will improve my chances. The army is also very much themed on the fluff and play style of the Salamanders chapter (hence the many meltas and flamers, and Vulkan He'Stan who feels like a no branier with this type of army) which is what attracted me to them in the first place.

 

I'd like some advice as to the best strategy & tactics for facing his 'Nid army. Should I perhaps replace the assault squad for some Devastators or heavier fire power? I also have at my disposal another Predator, Whirlwind, 2 Devastator squads, 2 Scout sniper squads, and another 5 man Assault squad. However as this is an agreed 1500 point battle (less to paint) I would like to keep it so.

 

Please feel free to pick apart my army and give constructive opinions.

 

So far I've spent 1435 points (assuming my figures are correct) leaving a tricky 65 points left to allocate.

 

 

Forge Father Vulkan He’Stan

190 pts

 

5 Assault Terminators

Terminator armour, Thunder Hammers, Storm shields

200 pts

 

Land Raider Redeemer

2 Flamestorm cannons, Twin-linked Assault cannon, Multi-melta, Frag assault launcher, Smoke launcher, Searchlight

250 pts

 

10 man Tactical Squad A

Sergeant: Power armour, Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Frag & Krak grenades

9 Marines: Power armour, Bolt pistols, Boltguns, Frag & Crack grenades

Including Multi-melta & Flamer

170 pts

 

10 man Tactical Squad B

Sergeant: Power armour, Plasma pistol, Power fist, Frag & Krak grenades

9 Marines: Power armour, Bolt pistols, Boltguns, Frag & Crack grenades

Including Multi-melta & Flamer

195 pts

 

Rhino A

Storm bolter, Smoke launchers

35 pts

 

Rhino B

Storm bolter, Smoke launchers

35 pts

 

Dreadnought

Assault cannon, Close combat weapon, Heavy flamer, Smoke launchers, Searchlight

125 pts

 

Assault Squad

Sergeant: Power armour, Power fist, Bolt pistol, Combat shield, Frag & Krak grenades, Jump pack

4 Marines: Power armour, Bolt pistols, Chainswords, Frag & Krak grenades, Jump packs, 1 Flamer

140 pts

 

Predator

Auto cannon, 2 Heavy bolters, Storm bolter, Smoke launchers, Search light

95 pts

 

 

Many thanks

[DarkGuard]

Hi there, welcome to the B+C, I hope you enjoy your stay here.

 

First, just a general list building tip, there's no need to list things like grenades, bolt pistols, power armour, stuff that every Marine has. Easiest way to list things is to just list the upgrades taken and amount of guys in a squad. This makes it quicker for you to right and easier for us to comment on it as well.

 

Anyway, the actual list is pretty solid. You've got a good amount of mech which Nids generally struggle again and the Land Raider will cause problems. Just keep them away from MCs and adrenal gland hordes that can cause a problem in CC, and keep out of range of Hive Guard as best you can, they're amazing at anti-tank, but struggle against heavy armour.

 

With the Assault squad, they could do a job, as they don't need to punch through Marine armour. However, I'd be tempted to stick another dakka Pred in there to take advantage of your own long range and Nid's aversion to mech, and spend the extra points on things like combi-flamers for the Tactical squad which will make them more dangerous. Extra armour on the Dread and possible LRR would be good as well.

[Koremu]

I don't rate a 5 man Assault Squad... well, anywhere really.

 

If your 'nid opponent likes hordes, the Whirlwind is a solid choice.

 

If you feel you need mobility, a bike squad with plenty of Flamers would be superior to the Assault Squad.

 

You may wish to consider Drop Podding that Dreadnought, as it's quite a short ranged fit.

[Brother Nihm]

What 'Nids players don't like in general

 

-Vehicles

-Psy Hoods

-assaulting into cover

-Force Weapons

-Krak missiles, only two of their MCs can get or have a 2+ armour save

-multi-assaults against Gant squads and Tervigons

[Duke083]

In a word : Terminators. I've fought Tyranids time and time again in both friendlies and Throne of Skulls tournament games and I've found that Nids have no answer to a well used unit of Terminators. Take a normal (not assault terminators, NEVER assault terminators) unit with an assault cannon and they can mow down the smaller stuff like shooting fish in a barrel. The assault cannon makes them effective at range against even the biggest monster and if they get charged? Well now you just smash them apart in close combat.

 

You need to make sure that you support your terminators with other units so if a particularly nasty unit (genestealers) gets too close you can destroy it with one burst of fire. I usually use my terminators slightly behind my line as a reserve unit. Their storm bolters mean that their guns are still more effective than your bolter guys in front of them, if anything pops up behind your line they're already there to deal with it and they're close enough to the front that they can jump in and plug any gaps or bolster your line if the nids get too close.

 

If you can put a chaplain/Captain in them with a pair of lightning claws or a power sword your getting +3/4 (4/5 if charging) Attacks @ Initiative 4 , base strength. Which helps against higher Initiative critters and will hopefully allow your lumbering power fist guys to actually make an attack and finish them off. Also the chaplain makes them fearless so they wont run away and allows re rolls to hit in CC on the turn you charge.

 

Basically Terminators can deal with every unit the nids have and the Nids just dont have an answer for them. Doesn't matter if you attack them or they attack you. Used offensively they're like a hot knife through butter and used defensively the Nids will be like water breaking over rocks. I guarantee it.

 

As for the rest of your list, personally I'd either drop the rhinos or take drop pods. They're practically guaranteed to get your unit exactly where you want it and there's nothing your opponent can do.

 

Calgar. Hes a monster in close combat and nothing is going to run in your whole army as long as hes around but you're a salamanders player so not much help there...

 

I'd probably get rid of the land raider and take a second unit of terminators or a third unit of tactical marines. Really you want three troops units (or just three scoring units)

 

I'd either drop the assault marines and take a vindicator or put a chaplain in them.

 

Your army seems quite mobile, Rhinos, assault marines and Im guessing the Terminators go in the Land Raider so you're taking the fight to the enemy. I'd suggest sitting back pump him full of lead then move in for the kill. Maybe not the most interesting way to play but against nids your guaranteed to win.

[rpnightsend]

I'm going to have to disagree with Duke here (congratulations on your first post too, Duke)

Assault terminators are marvelous, especially with Vulkan, and will easily go toe-to-toe with tyranids' monstrous creatures.

The Land Raider should also stay IMO because nids really just can't crak that AV14 without getting an MC in close combat, which your Assault Terminators should prevent.

my advice, as Koremu said, is to drop the 5 man assault sqaud for the other predator or whirlwind. Or find a way to make it a 10 man squad. But 5 man assault squads are a no.

Best of luck Vourne, and welcome to the B&C!

[thade]

I recommend throwing power fists (or at least Axes) onto your Tac squad sergeants; I never leave home without them. Thought now that he may get called out in a challenge and the challenger might be brave thinking they can def kill him before he swings, maybe a Power Sword is a more viable idea than I ever before considered.

 

A five man assault team with Jump packs has a sort of specific use-case: keep them close and behind your Rhinos/gunline and use them to counter-assault. Do not push far ahead with them, do not charge them in unless a tactical squad is also charging (or has been charged), and definitely do not Deep Strike them. Use their mobility to get them in position to defend/support your tacticals. <3

 

List looks okay to me, otherwise.

[Reinholt]

My thoughts on what you don't need:

 

- Pitch the assault squad. Not a fan of 5 man; 10 or nothing when facing hordes. That should save you 140pts.

- Pitch the storm bolter on the predator. You already have three guns and three hull points; you can't be left with no guns now because you'd be dead. Weapon losses are also random, so a 25% chance to save a heavy bolter by losing a storm bolter is not worth more than 10% of the cost of the vehicle. That should save you 10pts.

- Don't take a plasma pistol on a guy with a power fist. A 15pt upgrade that kills your guy with a 25pt upgrade is not ideal. That should save you 15pts.

 

This leaves you at 165pts of savings.

 

My thoughts on what to add:

 

- Another dakka predator

- A landspeeder, esp. a Typhoon

- A whirlwind

- Storm Talon (nids have nothing to shoot at flyers currently)

 

All of those should be a major burr in the saddle of a Tyranid player. If it were me, I'd add another pred and a landspeeder, as I like to be relatively mobile and everything else you have is in a vehicle or is a dreadnought.

[DarkGuard]

Welcome Duke083, although I do find it odd how you prefer the assault cannon to the CML against Nids. Sure the assault cannon is cool looking and is no way a bad weapon, but for Nids the CML just wins. It's basically two missile launchers, while keeping your storm bolter. It has options for shredding infantry, easily putting wounds on MCs and instant killing T4 units. The assault cannon can only do two of those things, and putting wounds on MCs with it isn't even all that reliable.

 

Thing is, missile launchers are the weapon of choice against Nids, it's the one they fear the most.

 

Of course, also make sure your Terminators don't get outnumbered, that's a sure way to see them die. There's only so many 2+ saves you can roll...

[Cmdr Shepard]

Just a quick question about fighting Tyraninds:

Why many players, at least in my gaming community, are saying nids got terribly nerfed in 6th edition? I thought they would be still effective. Don't they have a good number of AP2 units and several flying MC, for example?

[DarkGuard]

Just a quick question about fighting Tyraninds:

Why many players, at least in my gaming community, are saying nids got terribly nerfed in 6th edition? I thought they would be still effective. Don't they have a good number of AP2 units and several flying MC, for example?

 

It depends on the Nid list. A lot of Nid lists relied on some outflanking tricks, charging Stealers etc from the board edges. And that's gone downhill now. Flyers are also near impossible to combat with Nids, as flying MCs don't get Skyfire. Furthermore, the prime Nid way of killing you is assault, which also got nerfed with random charge lengths and Overwatch, and Fleet also got nerfed, most Nid players would prefer the run in shooting phase then charge.

 

But it's not all bad for them, the dakkafex is now horrible again with our vehicles having hull points, and should be a priority target for any Marine player. Cover saves are easier to find for MCs, while FnP can never be taken away from them, so in general Nidzilla probably got better, which means we should start packing the plasma and missile launchers again. Flying MCs are quite nice and can be hard to deal with unless you knock them out of the sky, and if their units do get into assault in numbers they'll still overun our lines, so lots of flamers for Wall of Death would be very useful.

 

They've been nerfed in some places but boosted in others, if Nid players are complaining it'll be because their armies focusses on the parts of the game that got nerfed.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Just a quick question about fighting Tyraninds:

Why many players, at least in my gaming community, are saying nids got terribly nerfed in 6th edition? I thought they would be still effective. Don't they have a good number of AP2 units and several flying MC, for example?

 

It depends on the Nid list. A lot of Nid lists relied on some outflanking tricks, charging Stealers etc from the board edges. And that's gone downhill now. Flyers are also near impossible to combat with Nids, as flying MCs don't get Skyfire. Furthermore, the prime Nid way of killing you is assault, which also got nerfed with random charge lengths and Overwatch, and Fleet also got nerfed, most Nid players would prefer the run in shooting phase then charge.

 

But it's not all bad for them, the dakkafex is now horrible again with our vehicles having hull points, and should be a priority target for any Marine player. Cover saves are easier to find for MCs, while FnP can never be taken away from them, so in general Nidzilla probably got better, which means we should start packing the plasma and missile launchers again. Flying MCs are quite nice and can be hard to deal with unless you knock them out of the sky, and if their units do get into assault in numbers they'll still overun our lines, so lots of flamers for Wall of Death would be very useful.

 

They've been nerfed in some places but boosted in others, if Nid players are complaining it'll be because their armies focusses on the parts of the game that got nerfed.

Thanks for the analysis.

Flying MC can perform vector strike against flyers right?

 

Anyway with "dakkafex" you mean the tyrannofex and similar? I'm not very familiar with nids nicknames :) so I have to ask what you are refering to with "Nidzilla".

[Brother Nihm]

Just a quick question about fighting Tyraninds:

Why many players, at least in my gaming community, are saying nids got terribly nerfed in 6th edition? I thought they would be still effective. Don't they have a good number of AP2 units and several flying MC, for example?

Random charge distance, horrible nerfs to assault in general, outflanking nerf, no allies, no skyfire weaponry. The list goes on.

 

It isn't all bad (being out of Synapse with Feed is fun), but in terms of balance, as a Nid player, you need very specific lists now to be viable.

 

*Sad panda face*

[greatcrusade08]

They've been nerfed in some places but boosted in others, if Nid players are complaining it'll be because their armies focusses on the parts of the game that got nerfed.

 

this x10

i grumbled for a while and still do in jest about my scouts getting hit hard, but i played a specific alpha strike wych DE list last night, and the same changes that nerfed me also nerfed that ball of cheese and the most common nid cheese was lots of outlfnaking stealers using bonuses to reserves rolls.

to be honest i can understand why nid players are upset, but in the long run its done the hobby alot of good in terms of variety and what we will see on the tabletop.

IMO meta lists are horribly difficul to find/predict and counter now, the strong elements of each army are now so diverse its going to be hard to find a good all rounder IMO

[Reinholt]

In fairness to tyranid players, the reason I am more sympathetic to their complaints is that the tyranid codex really does suck. There's a lot of stuff in there that just makes absolutely zero sense points wise (pyrovore, anyone?), several things that are just a rules muck up (lictors), and a general lack of foresight and thought into the design of that army. Of all of the codices currently out there, it's probably the worst (other than perhaps SoB), especially because it's actually not all that old (which means it is unlikely to be fixed anytime in the near future).

 

Or, to put my money where my mouth is, I knew four tyranid players before the new codex came out. 2 have quit the game and the other 2 sold their armies and play something else. 100% elimination of player base is probably about as strong a statement as can be made about that book.

 

As to terminology:

 

- Dakkafex is a shooting carnifex, typically with twin-linked devourers for the high rate of fire.

- Nidzilla is "large bugs" lists, a reference to godzilla

 

As to our worries as marines vs. their lists now:

 

- Ease of hitting vehicles in CC and strength of monstrous flyers means I would expect to see a lot more hive tyrants with wings and nidzilla lists

- Nerf of outflaking assault means I would expect to see less stealers

- Buff to feed and fearless means I'd expect to see a lot more gaunt gribblies

- Lack of psychic defenses other than deny the witch means we might see more zonies, but hive guard are still excellent

- Specialist bugs (pyrovore, venomthrope, lictor) still suck

[Disruptor_fe404]

My regular 'Nid opponent is shifting back to large combi-Warrior broods (shooting weapons as well as bonesword/lashwhip, as the bonesword still 'ignores armour in close combat'), probably with dakkafex and trygon support, winged Tyrants for the HQ choices.

 

My first game against him will be interesting, to say the least. I'm hoping my various missile launchers can carry me to victory.