Daemonhammers, BCs and GMs

[Inquisitor Fox]

So until now prevailing wisdom said do not take hammers on ICs due to reduction in initiative and not surviving, etc etc.

 

I now challenge that the old way is dead, long live the ordo malleus and pass out the hammers ;)

 

With the reduction in the effectiveness of power weapons to AP3 (for the most part), our terminator armored HQs now have a MUCH better chance at living until the latter part of the combat. Their better weapon skill means they are more likely to hit, their high # of attacks characteristic means they'd get a lot of shots with their hammers, which let us assume are AP2 as per a thunderhammer since our Codex says they follow the rules of hammers, and Codex > Rulebook (until FAQ'd).

 

Thus I think they'll be better off swinging hammers at gribblies since enemy power weapons should bounce off, and they'd go simultaneous with the things that deny them armor saves and then get their Iron Halos.

 

Thoughts? :unsure:

[shortysl]

So until now prevailing wisdom said do not take hammers on ICs due to reduction in initiative and not surviving, etc etc.

 

I now challenge that the old way is dead, long live the ordo malleus and pass out the hammers ;)

 

With the reduction in the effectiveness of power weapons to AP3 (for the most part), our terminator armored HQs now have a MUCH better chance at living until the latter part of the combat. Their better weapon skill means they are more likely to hit, their high # of attacks characteristic means they'd get a lot of shots with their hammers, which let us assume are AP2 as per a thunderhammer since our Codex says they follow the rules of hammers, and Codex > Rulebook (until FAQ'd).

 

Thus I think they'll be better off swinging hammers at gribblies since enemy power weapons should bounce off, and they'd go simultaneous with the things that deny them armor saves and then get their Iron Halos.

 

Thoughts? :unsure:

 

Hmmm, I like this train of thought. It means the Master of the Deathwing may now actually be quite useful in combat, but also means I have to rethink the kit that my Grey Knight Grand Master is carrying. Although having just scratch built an Inquisitor to represent me in a forthcoming campaign that has a Force Weapon and Plasma Pistol, I am tempted to say "drat" as I may have to pull hiim apart and rebuild him......

[number6]

I still think going first is the single most important thing you can do in combat. So I would still prefer to make use of our HQs' higher Init stats.

 

But hammers are definitely more viable in the coming years, that's for sure. :unsure:

[Gentlemanloser]

INP, I'm going opposite to you.

 

Never, ever, ever, take a NDH on a 'character'.

 

Stave first (depending on points), then Halberd. With Sword as a default choice *only* if you can't afford the other tow, or the mini has an Invulnerable save.

 

Why? Becuase of Challenges.

 

If you have an 'unwieldy' weapon, you're ripe for picking off with a challenge, before you can get to swing you I1 S10 Hammer of doom.

 

It's what I'm going to do to every hidden fister, or IC silly enough to use an unwieldy weapon. ;)

[RedemptionNL]

Of course, if Warding Staves are going to be AP4 and Halberds AP3, your higher initiative attacks may just bounce off the opponents 2+ Terminator/Artificer/etc armour.

[Gentlemanloser]

May. ;)

 

But in return if you score a single wound, you can ID them. Plus, in return (facing the stave) their PF hits are facing a 2++ save.

 

And in the end, at the worst, the P Fist kills one guy, and not ID's a load of the unit. ;)

[RedemptionNL]

Re: Challenges. I've just noticed a lot of models are going to be characters in our codex, like half of the entries in the summary:

 

- Obviously, all HQ units.

- Dreadknights

- All Assassins

- Paladins

- Justicars/Knight of the Flame

 

Which means that if you get your Assassins, Paladins or Dreadknight in assault, you can challenge to kill their character. Now you can actually use Assassins to assassinate that Powerfist Sergeant. Or if your Dreadknight assaults a 30 man boy squad with Powerklaw Nob, he can challenge the nob in one on one combat. Paladins seem to be an entire unit of characters, so you can decide which Paladin is going to accept the challenge, and do Glorious Interventions if the Paladin currently in the challenge has lost a Wound (but isn't dead yet).

 

Very nice. ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

Paladins *really* class as characters? What makies them so?

 

That means they can "Watch out sir!" each other on a 4+.

 

Wound allocation lives, without the need for different equipment!

 

And the NDK/Sin now lives longer in Assault, as no one else apart fromt he Challangers can hurt them!

 

Can Crowe issue Challenges?

 

How to tarpit a unit. Send in Crowe, issue a Challenge, don't attack and reroll all your saves.

[RedemptionNL]

Paladins *really* class as characters? What makies them so?

 

The reference table in the rulebook which updates all the unit types (such as making the Stormraven a flyer and marking which models are characters) lists the Paladin entry as a character. It's possible that when the GK FAQ/Errata comes it lists something like pick 1 Paladin per unit and make him a character or something.

[boreas]

Can Crowe issue Challenges?

 

How to tarpit a unit. Send in Crowe, issue a Challenge, don't attack and reroll all your saves.

 

Pure genius... I've always defended Crowe as a good option. If so, he's even better. Since his cleansing flame also goes before actual combat, I wonder if he'll be able to nuke the unit, but parry the challenger/challengee.

 

 

For Characters, I can see Halberds being taken. At +2 Ini and AP3, most challenge will be ended before the other can strike (unless the other character has 2+ save). My Hammers where only taken in order to hit well against vehicles (including dreads). Now that a unit of 10 GKSS has a good chance of glancing a Rhino to death (and then assault the unit!!!), I might change my sargeants to halberds...

 

Phil

[Inquisitor Fox]

I'd argue a hammer is still more effective a character death dealer than an activated force weapon. With the hammer, you can simply hammerhand, boost your own strength to get better chance of causing a wound, raise the strength of your attack to cause multiple wounds on a successful hit, bypass a potential fail to activate your force weapon, and have a guarenteed bypass of their 2+ armor save. You still have an invulnerable save to deal with, but you have much better odds at causing a wound, and every wound you cause is going to be 2 or 3 wounds based on strength of your attack.

 

that's a lot better than 1/6th of wounds that successfully hit (50% usually), then wound (another 50% since you're at base strength) so... you're looking at 1/6th of 1/4th of your attacks possibly causing a wound that might become instant death due to force weapon.

 

Versus hits on a 4, wounds on a 2, then they get an invuln save or they're paste at the end of your hammer. The hammer has MUCH better odds at capping even 3 wound characters in a single hit due to hammerhand boosting our strength to 9 or 10 (Depending on if you add the +1 before or after the doubling now).

 

EDIT: I should clarify better before hitting the post button.

 

lets go with 4 attacks because it's nicer math and I'm estimating and averaging here.

 

"force" sword: 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound, 1/6th of a fail armor save which becomes instant death 5/6th of the time... otherwise it's a single wound. So that's 13.89% chance of instant death, and .0278% chance of causing a single wound.

 

daemon hammer: 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.6666 wounds, 1.6666 failed armor saves due to AP, so we're looking at invuln saves now. Let's assume a 4++ for 83.33% chance of a 3 wound causing shot due to multiple wounds from high weapon strength due to hammerhand boosting it even further.

 

Which one really has a better chance at capping that enemy character? :) Unless they also are armed with a fist or a hammer or have wonky rules, they're now toast and you're still standing. Even if they do have a fist or hammer, they're only str 8 so you're taking 2 wounds, not 3. You might even have a wound left assuming you didn't shrug off the blow.

 

Hammers now win duels with better odds than a force weapon that still allows a 2+ armor save.

[RedemptionNL]

Note that Instant Death is still the same as in 5th (double the Strength vs their Toughness causes any non-Eternal Warrior model to lose all wounds on an unsaved Wound. And as Psychic Hoods work differently now because they can only nullify powers that are targetted at an enemy, buff powers like Hammerhand or activating Force Weapons cannot be nullified anymore.

 

Another note on characters, they have the Precision Shots and Precision Strikes special rules, so when you roll a 6 on your To Hit in either shooting or melee, those hits are allocatable to any enemy model when they also Wound. :D

[Inquisitor Fox]

Ok, so I can't remember where I heard something about instant death being multiple wounds caused as opposed to simple outright doom... but my point stays the same that with the 2+ armor save being godlike now, and any combat character of note really has a 2+ armor save due to artificer armor or terminator armor... that REALLY changes the odds against a standard force weapon causing instant death because you have to generate unsaved wounds to even have a chance. The math really supports a thunderhammer/powerfist causing more wounds and then due to high strength of the attack being instant death anyway regardless of being a force weapon. You HAVE to penetrate their armor to realistically be effective and an AP 3 weapon just doesn't cut it any more against truely hard targets.

 

Redemption, can you clarify the precision rules? Does that mean if I roll a 6 with my hammer or psycannon I get to allocate the wounds my BC/GM cause not the enemy player? i.e., mini-vindicare?

[Gentlemanloser]

Another note on characters, they have the Precision Shots and Precision Strikes special rules, so when you roll a 6 on your To Hit in either shooting or melee, those hits are allocatable to any enemy model when they also Wound.

 

Paladin...

 

ZOMG

 

due to multiple wounds from high weapon strength due to hammerhand boosting it even further.

 

In nearly every challenge, HH does nothing for a NDH. You were wounding on 2+ anyway. For NFH/S, you move from wounding on 4+ to 3+ with it.

[number6]

I agree with INP's "back of the napkin" analysis on the odds of causing wounds. Now that weapons have AP values, your odds of actually causing wounds are higher -- depending on your opponent, but since most are going to be from an Imperial Marine codex, most of the time we're talking about PA or TDA -- with hammers than with halberds (or swords).

 

Again, I still prefer going first and attempting to end the debate before it gets a chance to start. But I think there is a solid case to be made for hammers on characters for all the reasons INP has so far brought to light.

 

It's not a wash or a case of 6-of-one half-dozen-of-the-other -- at least in my own personal calculus -- but neither is it as clear-cut an issue as it was in previous editions of the game.

[RedemptionNL]

Ok, so I can't remember where I heard something about instant death being multiple wounds caused as opposed to simple outright doom...

 

That's from the 'leaked playtest' thingy from January. It didn't make it into the actual 6th edition.

 

Redemption, can you clarify the precision rules? Does that mean if I roll a 6 with my hammer or psycannon I get to allocate the wounds my BC/GM cause not the enemy player? i.e., mini-vindicare?

 

Ok, if a model with the Precision Shots (for shooting) or the Precision Strikes (for melee) roll a 6 on a to-hit, the controlling player gets to allocate the wound resulting from that hit. All characters have both Precision Shots and Precision Strikes, while Sniper weapons have Precision Shots for example.

 

So, for example, you have a Grandmaster with a Psycannon shooting at a squad of Guardsmen with a Sergeant, and you roll a 1, 3, 5 and a 6 To Hit. You discard the 1 as a miss, and keep track of which dice was the 6. All 3 hits result in a Wound after rolling 2+. Now the hits resulting from the 3 and the 5 are allocated closest to furthest as usual, while the 6 to hit is allocated by the player controlling the Grandmaster.

 

So if Paladins really turn out to be all-characters (let's wait for the new GK FAQ before we get our hopes up too much), they are seriously going to kick ass and take names. :D

[Inquisitor Fox]

In nearly every challenge, HH does nothing for a NDH. You were wounding on 2+ anyway. For NFH/S, you move from wounding on 4+ to 3+ with it.

Somewhere I heard or read that Instant Death was now changed to causing multiple wounds based on how much higher your Str was. It was on a spot that matched rumors of everything else that was being confirmed, so obviously they missed one or something. Ignore my previous comments about hammerhand helping the hammer in that case :)

 

@Redemption: Thanks! That's definitely going to be nice, especially as my BC/GM is equipped with a hammer and psycannon.. massive amounts of allocatable devastation :lol:

 

Otherwise, I also agree with Number6. There are definite merits to higher initiative (particularly if you're fighting say, Eldar or other non-Marine armies that don't have their HQs in 2+ save artificer or terminator armor, and also have high init). In previous editions it was clearly in benefit of a high init force weapon. Now that AP is on melee weapons, the odds change significantly which brings hammers sharply into focus. Against a 2+ armored opponent of any toughness really, hammers now shine over the non-axe force weapons (and I think even against the axe variety due to the better strength). I think having a high attacks, multiple wound, hammer toting IC is going to scare people. Lysander, Mordrak, even a bog standard GM or BC with a daemonhammer is a frightening proposition, especially as these models are all wearing 2+ armor. They will outright ignore most any incoming attack, and their attacks will penetrate your armor and squish you dead.

 

Some people will prefer higher init as they don't face a lot of 2+ armored opponents. But I think that fists and hammers on ICs are going to crop up more and more now, especially an IC with a 2+ save that nearly ignores those enemy power weapons that strike at init.

[Gentlemanloser]

Challenges are so much more important now.

 

The way to stop 'Precison Strikes'.

[Inquisitor Fox]

"Oh.. your HQ only has a relic blade eh? Well since that's AP3, I kick his butt with my 2+ armored IC with a daemon hammer. He squishes you into tuna due to my weapons AP, and next round I'm going to start squishing your honor guard..."

 

:lol:

[Inquisitor Fox]

New thought, thus the new post...

 

I will admit, challenges shake the game up on the default "put the powerfist/hammer on the sergeant" approach. If the sergeant/justicar is just in power armor and can be taken out by a sergeant with a power sword via challenge before getting to strike due to lack of an invuln now... game changer!

 

We may be better off loosing the extra +1A in favor of giving our Strike Squads, Interceptor, Purgation Justicars a halberd or falchions instead of a hammer. Before it was all about preserving that model... now... now with challenges and init, the weaker 3+ armor can't absorb the damage like Terminator Armor can. In a challenge with those power armored characters init matters much more against enemy power weapons then the extra attack with a hammer against vehicles or walkers.

 

Makes me rethink the one Justicar I have painted up, and consider retooling my further conversion ideas. Also makes me more prone towards leaving my Terminator armored sergeant with his nemesis force sword instead of retooling him to get a hammer.

[number6]

New thought, thus the new post...

 

I will admit, challenges shake the game up on the default "put the powerfist/hammer on the sergeant" approach. If the sergeant/justicar is just in power armor and can be taken out by a sergeant with a power sword via challenge before getting to strike due to lack of an invuln now... game changer!

 

We may be better off loosing the extra +1A in favor of giving our Strike Squads, Interceptor, Purgation Justicars a halberd or falchions instead of a hammer. Before it was all about preserving that model... now... now with challenges and init, the weaker 3+ armor can't absorb the damage like Terminator Armor can. In a challenge with those power armored characters init matters much more against enemy power weapons then the extra attack with a hammer against vehicles or walkers.

 

Makes me rethink the one Justicar I have painted up, and consider retooling my further conversion ideas. Also makes me more prone towards leaving my Terminator armored sergeant with his nemesis force sword instead of retooling him to get a hammer.

Fortunately I have a surplus of metal PAGK models with halberds, any number of which can be justicars with halberds. I can mix in my existing hammer justicars any time I like. :lol:

[Valerian]

With the new challenges Warding Staves really, really, come into their own. Further proof that the Grey Knights were written with 6e in mind.

 

Valerian

[Abaddonshand]

I'm a bit at sea at the moment, I like my I7 grandmaster, and can't really find the points to add a warding stave instead (same for my librarian). I think I'd rather have a warding stave than a hammer, as the stave makes them nigh on invulnerable, whereas the hammer simply means we get a chance to ID enemy TDA at the same time as they ID us.

 

I may stick with my halberds for now, as gathering the points for a higher save against only ap 2 weapons doesn't seem worth it to me, especially when the warding stave is reduced to AP 4. Of course, the strength boost is nice, but we can get this in other ways such as rad grenades and hammer hand.

[boreas]

We may be better off loosing the extra +1A in favor of giving our Strike Squads, Interceptor, Purgation Justicars a halberd or falchions instead of a hammer. Before it was all about preserving that model... now... now with challenges and init, the weaker 3+ armor can't absorb the damage like Terminator Armor can. In a challenge with those power armored characters init matters much more against enemy power weapons then the extra attack with a hammer against vehicles or walkers.

 

That's my thinking exactly. Might be the local metagame, but 2+ save is not that common, here, except the odd termi unit (that you would stormbolt to death anyways.)

 

As for the staff... AP4 is just too bad. Most challenges (including MC like tervigons?) are against 3+ save, no?

 

Phil

[Mezkh]

With Dreadknights being Characters, that makes their shooting really potent... all 6's to hit, YOU allocate the wound!