Razor Squads and 6th

[Deschenus Maximus]

Gentlemen,

 

So, it would seem that 6th is going to really shake up razor-based lists. I myself liked to run TLAC razors with 5-man squad equiped with a melta and IP. This worked great to knock out other MSU squads. Sadly, I don't think this is the way to go in 6th.

 

For the first part, the TLAC turret is probably going to drop in favour of the TL plasma/las turret - being able to fire both when moving a cruising speed is just too good... it really makes me sad, but so it goes. Now, if only I could find symetrical las/plas turret pattern conversion...

 

As for the squad itself, its a bit more complicated. I think infernuses are just too short ranged to really hack it with the way disembarking works now, so these will drop. Meltaguns I'm a bit more on the fence about... should I drop it for a flamer? I guess that will depend on how reliably enemy transports and heavy tanks can be neutralised by other weapon systems.

 

With that in mind, here's some configurations I'm considering. Assume that these would work in conjuntion with a Priest and probably a Shield libby:

 

-Plasmasponge: Sergeant w/ Stormshield & meltabomb, specialist with melta. Pretty simple: sergeant stands in front of the squad and soaks up as much of the low Ap shots as he can. Between his shield and FnP, he should have a 77% chance of saving from plasma. In combat, he can challenge tough ICs to save the rest of his squad. If he dies, no biggy.

-The Duelist - NCOs: Sergeant w/Storm Shield and LC and meltabombs, specialist with melta. Challenge other sergeants with power swords or power fists and own them.

-The Duelist - Officers: Sergeant w/Storm Shield and Thunder hammer or power fist, specialist with melta. Challenge tough characters and kill them via instand death or force them to back out of the fight.

-The BBQ - Sergeant with 2 x Hand flamers and meltabomb, specialist with flamer. So I figure if it comes to pass that meltas are not really required, this squad would be able to compensate for the loss of the init boost from FC via killing a few more dudes before the fight. Hand flamers aren't the bee's knees, but 2 of them... dunno, something to think about.

-The Nova - Sergeant with 2 x Plasma Pistols and meltaboms, specialist with melta or plasma. Basically like the BBQ, but with more MEQ-killing power and some anti-tank. Thorn between the extra shot from a plasma gun and the ability to assault with the melta... probably would go with melta.

 

All in all, I think plasmasponge or Nova is what I'm going to go with... possibly BBQ if tanks die from ranged fire fine.

[Tamwulf]

Do you have the rulebook?

 

I'm not going to say really anything until I actually read the rules.

 

As far as the Assault Cannon vs. Las/Plas combo- in 5th, it has been shown repeatedly that a regular assault cannon is better at popping AV 14. A TLAC is far superior over every other weapon at popping AV 14.

 

As rumor has it, everything will have Hull Points in 6th, and every time you score a hit (armor glance/pen), you lose a HP. TLAC should be the best weapon at shredding hull points. This, of course, is just roughly based on rumors.

 

For the squad composition, your spending 25-50+ points on each of those Sergeants. Figure 2-4 Assault Squads- that's enough points to get another Assault Squad. Not sure how the whole challenge thing will work.

 

I've also read the rumor that template weapons cannot be snap-shotted or placed on overwatch. Unless the rules on Plasma weapons have changed, you will face the possibility of rolling that 1 and failing an armor save, along with that new 5+ FNP roll. Chances do not favor you. And then you will lose that 50 point Sergeant.

 

If you have the rulebook, then can ya answer the above questions? ;)

[Deschenus Maximus]

Do you have the rulebook?

 

No I don't but I have compiled a pretty thorough summary from info provided by people that do

 

As far as the Assault Cannon vs. Las/Plas combo- in 5th, it has been shown repeatedly that a regular assault cannon is better at popping AV 14. A TLAC is far superior over every other weapon at popping AV 14.

 

Yep, and that's why I used asscans almost exclusively.

 

As rumor has it, everything will have Hull Points in 6th, and every time you score a hit (armor glance/pen), you lose a HP. TLAC should be the best weapon at shredding hull points. This, of course, is just roughly based on rumors.

 

Will have to mathhammer that one out. I would actually be glad if TLACs come out ahead as it would save me a lot of converting.

 

For the squad composition, your spending 25-50+ points on each of those Sergeants. Figure 2-4 Assault Squads- that's enough points to get another Assault Squad. Not sure how the whole challenge thing will work.

 

I am not convinced on going with TH+SS or TH+LC, but I would rather have 2-4 squads able to do stuff than a 3ed-5th squad naked and useless.

 

I've also read the rumor that template weapons cannot be snap-shotted or placed on overwatch.

 

Templates CAN overwatch, but not snapshot.

 

Unless the rules on Plasma weapons have changed, you will face the possibility of rolling that 1 and failing an armor save, along with that new 5+ FNP roll. Chances do not favor you. And then you will lose that 50 point Sergeant.

 

Oh well? If he did damage before he dies, its all good. No one lives forever ;)

[DominicJ]

People were suggesting giving sergents cs/ss when gamesworkshop still had its own forums.

Didnt work then either.

 

It costs more than it will save, your better off buying another marine.

Unless something radical changed

[Morticon]

Unless something radical changed

 

Like challenges ;)

[DominicJ]

Which arent *that* radical.

Your tactical sergent is dead against the sanguinor, doesnt matter if he's naked or in termie / ss

 

if you give him a pf and nine buddies, you can be sure him, his pf and his four surving buddies will hit and hit hard.

If you give him an ss and 8 buddies, you can be reasonably sure 6 or seven of them will hit not very hard.

[the jeske]

Your tactical sergent is dead against the sanguinor, doesnt matter if he's naked or in termie / ss

yes but unlike 4th cleaning of killzones , your pumping all the A in to that sgt dude [so no matter how kill sang is he kills 1 dude in a challange].

[Morticon]

Which arent *that* radical.

Your tactical sergent is dead against the sanguinor, doesnt matter if he's naked or in termie / ss

 

if you give him a pf and nine buddies, you can be sure him, his pf and his four surving buddies will hit and hit hard.

If you give him an ss and 8 buddies, you can be reasonably sure 6 or seven of them will hit not very hard.

 

If he is challenged, only the characters fight each other. So, Sang would waste all his attacks on the Sarge, then start smacking the squad in subsequent turns.

No one else can attack the characters.

 

And what about when he's fighting another Sarge? At least give him a chance to survive with a shield of some kind.

[DV8]

I should note that with the way Disembarking works now, it's easier to get Infernus pistols in range (since it's a 6" dismebark radius). However, you cannot Disembark if transports move over 6".

 

Also, the shooter allocates wound pools (so he can pump your sergeant full of S4 AP5 Bolter wounds first, and then bring up the juicy S7 AP2 Plasma wounds when he gets to regular marines (assuming your Sergeant dies to the Bolters).

 

I wouldn't worry about uber-kitting Sergeants. All characters get a Look Out Sir now (that includes Sergeants), so you can just pass off wounds to regular gumbos (except in Challenges or from Precision Strikes).

 

 

DV8

[Tamwulf]

Tooled up Sergeants have never worked before, and I really doubt they will work in 6th. This is the best part about a new edition though. Playing these guys and seeing how they work. Plus, just because a tooled up Sergeant in an Assault Squad doesn't work in my area, doesn't mean it won't in your area. Metagaming at it's finest! I don't know about you guys, but I've totally been able to use internet wisdom against my local play group. Any time a thread starts talking about how powerful a certain list is, I can totally take the antithesis of that list to the game store that week and face at least one army built off that metagame internet list.

 

Back on topic:

Deschenus Maximus thank you for answering some of the questions!

 

I haven't heard how rending or seen any of the vehicle damage charts. I'm ass-u-me'ing that rending will work the same. The Las/Plas is a good weapon, and at least it won't be destroyed thanks to a single weapon destroyed result (unless that rule has changed). So all vehicles will have 1-4 hull points, and at best, the Las/Plas will take away two of those hull points. The Assault Cannon can take away up to four. If none of the strength values of weapons change, none of the armor values of vehicles change, and rending stays the same, then the Assault Cannon will still be superior to any other weapon for popping high AV/Hull Point targets. More rumors: Jink saves for fast moving vehicles makes single shot weapons even harder to destroy them. Better to have multiple shots. The only thing the Las/Plas combo has over the Assault Cannon is range, and that advantage will only really work for at best two turns anyways. Still my opinion, but more S6 Rending Shots will always be better then a single Lascannon or Meltagun shot.

 

With the "Look Out, Sir!" rule- though no Sergeant would ever acknowledge being called "Sir"- Sergeants work, Officers sit around and make decisions- this could make your Sergeants more survivable towards shooting, but again, I've been hearing/reading a lot of rumors about how some shooting can be used to single out certain models. For the whole challenge thing- what happens when you refuse? What happens if you win? How does it affect the close combat resolution, and what are the close combat resolutions? Can you still sweep and wipe a unit out? Do they fall back, "broken" and take leadership tests? Do units around them have to take a leadership test if a friendly unit starts running away? What are the modifiers to the Leadership test? What is wound allocation like in close combat? If a Sergeant/Leader of a unit gets killed in the shooting phase, do I have to appoint a new leader model for close combat? What if you get into close combat, make a challenge, but the unit you are challenging has no leader (Bugs and Necrons for example)? Can a Leaderless unit issue Challenges?

 

3-5 "naked" squads in 5th could always take objectives, contest objectives, tie stuff up in close combat, etc. They are far from useless. You just have to make sure you have other stuff in your army that can pop tanks or high Toughness Critters. I'll tell you one of the most effective, scary, armies I have ever faced at 1500 points was the 105 model Space Marine Hoard army with 16 Lascannons/8 Meltaguns. There was not one PF/SS/LC in the entire army. The Captain had a power weapon. That was all.

 

Back to the Plasma thing- if you roll a 1, your not hitting anything but yourself. Thus, you won't have destroyed anything, except maybe the guy shooting the Plasma weapon. There was a pretty long thread about Plasma weapons in the Dark Angels sub-forum I believe. Long posts, lots of Mathhammer. Consensus- take a Meltagun/Infernus Pistol instead. Or a Bolt Pistol and Meltabombs.

 

Something else to consider- I've heard you can throw grenades around. Every Space Marine has Frag/Krack Grenades. If the range is good and the Krack Grenade is S6, then maybe that's the route to go instead of fancy, expensive wargear options for Sergeants?

[DV8]

Whao questions. Lol. Let's see what I can answer...

 

I haven't heard how rending or seen any of the vehicle damage charts. I'm ass-u-me'ing that rending will work the same. The Las/Plas is a good weapon, and at least it won't be destroyed thanks to a single weapon destroyed result (unless that rule has changed). So all vehicles will have 1-4 hull points, and at best, the Las/Plas will take away two of those hull points. The Assault Cannon can take away up to four. If none of the strength values of weapons change, none of the armor values of vehicles change, and rending stays the same, then the Assault Cannon will still be superior to any other weapon for popping high AV/Hull Point targets. More rumors: Jink saves for fast moving vehicles makes single shot weapons even harder to destroy them. Better to have multiple shots. The only thing the Las/Plas combo has over the Assault Cannon is range, and that advantage will only really work for at best two turns anyways. Still my opinion, but more S6 Rending Shots will always be better then a single Lascannon or Meltagun shot.

 

Not necessarily true, depending on what you're firing at. Glances automatically peel off Hull Points, it's true, but a Penetrating hit takes a Hull Point AND you roll on the Penetration table. AP2 gets +1 to the roll, AP1 gets +2 (so a Lascannon needs a 5+ to kill a vehicle outright, regardless of Hull Points, a Meltagun needs 4+). So there are times the Las Plas will be able to outshine the Assault Cannon (say shooting armor 12 or 13).

 

Rending stays the same.

 

Most vehicles have 3 Hull Points, certain light Skimmers (Land Speeders, Storms, Storm Talons, Venoms, etc.) only have 2, certain heavy vehicles (Land Raiders, Monoliths, Defilers) have 4.

 

With the "Look Out, Sir!" rule- though no Sergeant would ever acknowledge being called "Sir"- Sergeants work, Officers sit around and make decisions- this could make your Sergeants more survivable towards shooting, but again, I've been hearing/reading a lot of rumors about how some shooting can be used to single out certain models.

 

The Wound Allocation is certainly tricky. Basically all wounds allocate closest to closest until that model dies, and you work your way backwards. Everytime a Sergeant is allocated a wound, on a 4+ he can pass it off to a gumbo. Positioning is going to be key because bad placement could mean you lose your specialists early in.

 

Characters (Independent and Sergeants) and Snipers that roll a 6 to hit when shooting have what's called Precision Strike, which allows you to allocate the hit to a model of your choosing. Look Out Sirs can still be taken.

 

For the whole challenge thing- what happens when you refuse? What happens if you win? How does it affect the close combat resolution, and what are the close combat resolutions?

 

Like Fantasy, when you refuse, a character who was eligible to fight (challenger's choice) may not attack this turn.

 

Challenges continue until a challenger is killed, or another character pulls a Heroic move to step in and replace a challenger. So long as the challenge is taking place, no participant may be attacked by anyone except the person they're dueling.

 

The rest of combat fights as normal, and any wounds inflicted in the challenge apply for combat res as per normal. This does mean you can charge in single Independent Characters to a squad and Challenge the Sergeant. If they refuse, you wreck the squad, safe from their Power Weapon/Fist/etc. If they accept, you rofl-stomp the Sergeant while the squad watches on helpless. However, in a situation where the Challenger is the only one involved and the squad has nothing to attack, for every 5 full models extra involved in that combat, the challengee gets a reroll. So say the Sergeant was accompanied by a squad of 9 Space Marines. He would get one reroll that can be applied for To Hit, To Wound, or Armor Saves.

 

Can you still sweep and wipe a unit out? Do they fall back, "broken" and take leadership tests?

 

Yes, only now units can test to rally all the time. Like Fantasy, down to 25% you test on standard Leadership. Below 25%, you rally on snake eyes.

 

Do units around them have to take a leadership test if a friendly unit starts running away? What are the modifiers to the Leadership test?

 

No. Modifiers are the same as 5th Edition.

 

What is wound allocation like in close combat?

 

Complicated. There's a sequence now called Initiative Step, that's too much to get into. But basically, a model at Initiative say, 6, attacks. Wounds are allocated first to models in base to base. Once they're all dead, to anything within 2". And you continue working your way down the Initiative values (from 10 to 1). It makes combat brutal and a gamble, because you risk your characters/sergeants (who, by the way, can still make Look Out Sirs).

 

If a Sergeant/Leader of a unit gets killed in the shooting phase, do I have to appoint a new leader model for close combat?

 

Why would you? The squad doesn't need the Sergeant to function.

 

What if you get into close combat, make a challenge, but the unit you are challenging has no leader (Bugs and Necrons for example)? Can a Leaderless unit issue Challenges?

 

Challenges can only be issued if there is someone eligible to accept the Challenge and would in turn be eligible to accept a Challenge in turn. If there isn't, or if the Challenge is refused, combat resumes per normal.

 

So for example, a squad of 10 Necron Immortals charges a squad of 10 Space Marines (who have a Sergeant). As the Necrons are the active player, they may issue a Challenge first. But there are no characters, and so they cannot issue a Challenge. The Space Marine player, being the reactive player, may now issue a Challenge. But there is no one in the Necron unit to accept, and so they cannot issue a Challenge.

 

Something else to consider- I've heard you can throw grenades around. Every Space Marine has Frag/Krack Grenades. If the range is good and the Krack Grenade is S6, then maybe that's the route to go instead of fancy, expensive wargear options for Sergeants?

 

One model per unit in the shooting phase can throw a Grenade, at various ranges/strengths depending on the type of grenade. Assault Grenades (like Frag) are low Strength, no AP, blast, while something like Krak would be higher strength with decent AP.

 

When fighting a fortification, entire squads can lob grenades onto emplacements (upper floors) or through firing points (basically into the building) to do MASSIVE damage.

 

For example, a squad of 10 Space Marines lobbing Krak Grenades into the fire points of a bastion would do 10D3 hits on the squad inside. That's right. If they lobbed Frag Grenades, they would do 10D6 hits.

 

 

DV8

[Deschenus Maximus]

So I did some quick mathhammer for shootign at tanks, and the TLAC does indeed stay ahead of the plasmaback on both hull point stripping and lucky one-shotting unless you come within 12 inches of the enemy... and with the fact that you are now hit on 3+ in CC, 12 inches is certainly NOT where you want to be.

 

As an added bonus:

-It is now less likely that you will be losing your single gun turret due to glancing not rolling on the chart anymore

-TLAC is massively supperior as an anti-aircraft platform.

 

It's just too bad that you can't take advantage of the ability to fire two weapons when moving at cruising speed. Maybe take hunter-killers for first-turn alpha strike? Might not be too bad, but costly over 4-6 razors.

 

I'm also considering just going with naked sergeants, as all the lists I've been putting together with Allies are really short on points everywhere... Allies is really going to take efficiency to a whole new level...

[Morticon]

I'm also considering just going with naked sergeants, as all the lists I've been putting together with Allies are really short on points everywhere... Allies is really going to take efficiency to a whole new level...

 

been thinking this ^

[Deschenus Maximus]

I'm really struggling to find something that our Razor RAS can do that Grey Hunters can't do better. It's kinda depressing ^_^

[Brother Weasel]

I'm really struggling to find something that our Razor RAS can do that Grey Hunters can't do better. It's kinda depressing :(

 

They can't be Blood Angels...:(

[darth_giles]

I'm really struggling to find something that our Razor RAS can do that Grey Hunters can't do better. It's kinda depressing :(

Given how wimpy vehicles are- again- I'm tempted to just go with as few vehicles as possible and just overload on jump packers. Lots of RASes and VASes, a Captain with full Honor Guard, stuff like that.

[Morticon]

I'm really struggling to find something that our Razor RAS can do that Grey Hunters can't do better. It's kinda depressing :(

 

They can't be Blood Angels...:)

 

:whistling:

 

: ;)

 

 

On a more sober note though, it looks as if its only the extra 6" move from flat out that is the bonus.

[Atlantic]

I got a look at the rulebook tonight.

 

I would say that razorback heavy lists are pretty well dead for BA.

 

Our fast vehicles only get to move 6" in the shooting phase. If they forgo a shooting attack, they can then make a 12" move during the shooting phase to go flat out. Between that and hull points, it really isn't that good anymore.

 

However, the rumor that you can not assault out of a vehicle without assault ramps that remained stationary is not true. If you are going to run rhinos, run them as rhinos not razorbacks and fill them with assault marines.

 

Jump Packs and Bikes are the way to play with BA. Even though Furious Charge isn't as good as it used to be, Feel No Pain is arguably better and the free I10 strike with jump packs and the ability to move in the assault phase is pretty good.

 

I think shooty Honour Guard will make a real appearance. 4 plasma guns and jump packs. Move 12, rapid fire plasma, move 6 away during the assault phase. Terminator killers

[Emperors Immortals]

I've been thinkng that my full rhino duos just got a hell of a lot better, am I wrong or will rhino survive just a bit longer now?

Less stunlok at least...

[Red Fury]

However, the rumor that you can not assault out of a vehicle without assault ramps that remained stationary is not true

What? Is this guy smokin something or what? What Atlantic is sayin is in the face of a ton of so called 'confirmed' rumors and my book doesn't arrive til next Thursday according to UPS. So anybody want to verify or shoot this down?

 

And please, explain why FNP is better now at 5+ than the 4+ we used to get.

[angry man]

you may not assault out of a vehicle whether it has moved or not. (with the exception of assault vehicles and open-topped vehicles) (pg79)

 

FnP can be considered better as you can always take it, apart from against instant death wounds. = power weapons and plasma no longer ignores FnP

 

AM

[xAegisx]

However, the rumor that you can not assault out of a vehicle without assault ramps that remained stationary is not true

What? Is this guy smokin something or what? What Atlantic is sayin is in the face of a ton of so called 'confirmed' rumors and my book doesn't arrive til next Thursday according to UPS. So anybody want to verify or shoot this down?

 

And please, explain why FNP is better now at 5+ than the 4+ we used to get.

 

 

 

You can take FnP against everything that isn't instant death. I.E., plasma, power weapons (not hammers and fists, for most things.),rending.