Alliance with Daemons

[A D-B]

And now, everyone is playing WB/BL. Not a surprise.

 

Sigh.

 

Yeah, I know of all the warband thingy, and I know that kind of petty moaning from the depth of 3.5 is the kind of thing you heard far enough.

But another thing I know for sure is that I had fun playing the 3.5 codex. And I feel the actual codex is just some kind of black hole sucking every dip of fun I have in the hobby.

 

EDIT : You shamelessly edited when I was writing ! :(

I understand the fluff as it is, and I'm perfectly fine with it.

You say 3.5 was pretty limited and had plenty of limitations. I don't agree (well, I guess you had this discussion about a thousand times). But I felt like I could play my AL the way I wanted. AL gunline with imperial robbed stuff ? I picked IW list. NL infiltrators ? I picked AL list. You had ton of ways you could build your army, giving it the feel you wanted. Just like your lord.

And you could use the common BL list that suited absolutly well to renegades and such. Then, back in time, we had god gifts, veterans skills, an arsenal...

We have nothing like that in the Gavdex. And less is never more when it comes to army building. It feels rushed, just like the new FAQ with Typhus.

 

 

No, I getcha. And you won't see me rush out to defend the current codex on that score.

 

But there needs to be a little give and take, here. For several editions, Chaos hasn't been represented in the lore the way it was in 3.5.

 

1st, 2nd, and 4th have all done it differently. 6th will almost definitely do it differently, I'm guessing it'll be much closer to 1st, 2nd and 4th. Raging against that machine is a little fruitless. What if there's a mountain of choice, letting people take whatever units they want to customise their own warbands within a Legion - like the lore has always stated? Will people still whine that it's not 0-1 Basilisks, therefore "not an Iron Warriors army"? Will all Word Bearer armies need to be led by a Chaplain, despite there being countless Word Bearer warbands that wouldn't be? Why is it considered a plus to be defined by limits rather than possibilities? Are we that useless at understanding these things? A Word Bearer warband led by a Lord with the Mark of Tzeentch is just as much a Word Bearer warband as one led by a Dark Apostle. Similarly, daemons manifesting in the same place from various gods is hardly some blasphemy against the background. What I don't understand is why the people against that idea can't ever try to see it from others' points of view. Why just refuse and resist and insist it's against the background when it categorically isn't? Half the arguments even insist things like this are recent changes, rather than seeing 3.5 as a speedbump that changed things temporarily.

 

You know what the problem is? People insisting that any explanation deeper than "3.5 is the best" is actually "I love the Gavdex". That couldn't be further from the truth.

 

And 3.5 was limiting. There's no argument there. I'm betting the next codex will allow people to form their warbands however they want; but if there are no "Night Lords MUST take 1+ Raptors" or whatever, people will still miss the point and say you can't make a Night Lords army. The exact opposite would be true: you can make the infinite variety of Night Lords armies, without being limited by the nonsense that 100,000 warriors living in an eternal realm of Hell where time doesn't exist and emotion physically transforms you, should, somehow, all be led by Raptor Champions and have Raptor Squads.

 

Choice is a good thing. It's not a "LOL BLACK LEGION LIST" deal. It's freedom, not limitation.

[Clewz]

I was initially thinking of taking a lord of change with some flamers and a unit of bloodletters. Now i'm considering khorne and tzeentch heralds on steeds along with a unit of blood crushers and a unit of bloodletters

 

and maybe tzeentch prince for good measure

[Lord Ragnarok]

I have a hard time reading you.

 

And 6th ed Chaos codex is rumoured. Nothing more. Remember when last year people were saying "ye, feb 2012 boys, you'll get your codex". Maybe we are the new Dark Eldars.

 

I made it easier and fixed some of my poor grammar. Ignore the 6th dex comment then, and answer the 4th ed. codex question.

[Vesper]

And now, everyone is playing WB/BL. Not a surprise.

 

Sigh.

 

Yeah, I know of all the warband thingy, and I know that kind of petty moaning from the depth of 3.5 is the kind of thing you heard far enough.

But another thing I know for sure is that I had fun playing the 3.5 codex. And I feel the actual codex is just some kind of black hole sucking every dip of fun I have in the hobby.

 

EDIT : You shamelessly edited when I was writing ! ;)

I understand the fluff as it is, and I'm perfectly fine with it.

You say 3.5 was pretty limited and had plenty of limitations. I don't agree (well, I guess you had this discussion about a thousand times). But I felt like I could play my AL the way I wanted. AL gunline with imperial robbed stuff ? I picked IW list. NL infiltrators ? I picked AL list. You had ton of ways you could build your army, giving it the feel you wanted. Just like your lord.

And you could use the common BL list that suited absolutly well to renegades and such. Then, back in time, we had god gifts, veterans skills, an arsenal...

We have nothing like that in the Gavdex. And less is never more when it comes to army building. It feels rushed, just like the new FAQ with Typhus.

 

 

No, I getcha. And you won't see me rush out to defend the current codex on that score.

 

But there needs to be a little give and take, here. For several editions, Chaos hasn't been represented in the lore the way it was in 3.5.

 

1st, 2nd, and 4th have all done it differently. 6th will almost definitely do it differently, I'm guessing it'll be much closer to 1st, 2nd and 4th. Raging against that machine is a little fruitless. What if there's a mountain of choice, letting people take whatever units they want to customise their own warbands within a Legion - like the lore has always stated? Will people still whine that it's not 0-1 Basilisks, therefore "not an Iron Warriors army"? Will all Word Bearer armies need to be led by a Chaplain, despite there being countless Word Bearer warbands that wouldn't be? Why is it considered a plus to be defined by limits rather than possibilities? Are we that useless at understanding these things? A Word Bearer warband led by a Lord with the Mark of Tzeentch is just as much a Word Bearer warband as one led by a Dark Apostle. Similarly, daemons manifesting in the same place from various gods is hardly some blasphemy against the background. What I don't understand is why the people against that idea can't ever try to see it from others' points of view. Why just refuse and resist and insist it's against the background when it categorically isn't? Half the arguments even insist things like this are recent changes, rather than seeing 3.5 as a speedbump that changed things temporarily.

 

You know what the problem is? People insisting that any explanation deeper than "3.5 is the best" is actually "I love the Gavdex". That couldn't be further from the truth.

 

And 3.5 was limiting. There's no argument there. I'm betting the next codex will allow people to form their warbands however they want; but if there are no "Night Lords MUST take 1+ Raptors" or whatever, people will still miss the point and say you can't make a Night Lords army. The exact opposite would be true: you can make the infinite variety of Night Lords armies, without being limited by the nonsense that 100,000 warriors living in an eternal realm of Hell where time doesn't exist and emotion physically transforms you, should, somehow, all be led by Raptor Champions and have Raptor Squads.

 

Choice is a good thing. It's not a "LOL BLACK LEGION LIST" deal. It's freedom, not limitation.

 

I don't think 3.5 was perfect. Your examples bothered me, back when I was playing that codex. But I think the tabula rasa Gavin made just to say "Here, this is all you'll got, but you can take whatever you want" isn't a step in the right direction. They should have pushed 3.5 farther in its diversity, taking away some things like "they can only bear the mark of Chaos something", can't agree more with you, that was a painful restriction.

Now, our book feels soulless, there's no army making. There's next to no choice, just like if the next step after 3.5 was just too hard to make.

And NL could trade one of their HS choice for a FA one. It wasn't mandatory :D.

Finally, you can't tell me that having a Chaos lord on a bike followed by two chaos hounds wasn't cool ! :)

 

 

So is the sentiment more of "give me freedom or give me death"? Happiness cannot be achieved by the allies inclusion? The dex MUST include the daemons the way it was in 3.5, and you'll do just fine with CSM by themselves 4th or 6th edition version?

 

I do find the idea behind the allies really cool. And I'd like to make a Blood Pact army or something (even if I'd like a Chaos minions book, to be fair ;)). But yes, I miss proper daemons is our codex. The generic ones felt like an insult to Chaos players who bought bloodletters and such.

And I also have a problem about the balancing issues the allies bring into the game.

[Terrahawk]

I'm really, really tempted to create a Word Bearer warband with allied Daemons. Even though I kind of swore not to get another red army.

 

I think Chaos is a faction that really benefits from the new Allied rules. I'm glad for you guys that they are in. Hopefully the new 'dex will soon follow. :unsure:

[Warsmith Aznable]

Lots of stuff about 3.5 and 4the edition CSM codices

 

All we really need now is the ability to buy proper marks for our specialist units, some of the really cool wargear like Collars of Khorne and whatnot we used to have, and the named characters to fiddle the FOC so that specialist units can count as troops. I see that stuff as being a sure thing in any future codex given the trend that most recent codices has evidenced. And didn't everybody else see that we were named "the greatest threat" in the new BRB and sectioned off from everyone else in the fluff pages? Doesn't that just feel like attention of the design team radiating outward in beams of warm, fuzzy hope?

 

Cheer up Vesper, the future is grim and dark

for the Imperium

 

[*Furyou Miko]

Personally, I plan to take Fateweaver (if people are nice enough to let me use Amon'chakai counts-as) and maybe a handful of Horrors (because they're necessary).

 

>> But that's because I want to actually field my GDoT.

[TheDarkApostle]

A host of 10 Nurgling bases (Finally getting to use my precious Gibbering Hordes from the Lost and the Damned list again! :sweat: )

 

Then possibly a score of Flamers of Tzeentch and a score or two of Horrors of Tzeentch.

 

TDA

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

And now, everyone is playing WB/BL. Not a surprise.

 

Sigh.

 

I literally can't understand this attitude. The limited way some people view the Legions (and the Chaos Powers) sort of horrifies me. They're not Chapters. They're not so narrowly defined, and the 3.5 rules were an abomination of limiting restrictiveness, not some paragon of originality and rules freshness. Christ, I wonder why some people even like Chaos when their perceptions are so skewed.

As the mod of the HGR rules forum, I'm kinda not surprised by this. So few people seem to have true imagination, or at least inspiration. Things outside of the box are pretty rare. However, you browse the PCA forum right? Completely different story, it seems.

 

Not much you can do. I could go on about how humans are visual based creatures, or perhaps that the game produces a more mathmatical approach that kills not only my forum's activity but also thought processes outside "WB and BL are Undivided daemon masters, and daemon+marine players will only play those". But it's life. You can't change this part of it, only accept it and do what you can to create something different.

[Hashulaman]

I honestly do not see the problem with what people are saying as limitations. That is to say is that it's rather easy for me to not see us as so limiting anymore now that we have Daemon Allies. Maybe it's because I started with the "Gavdex" and didn't expeireince 3.5. Maybe it's because I first play Hordes of chaos in WHFB and the transition was made easier. In the end, they are chaos, that can't be avoided. Since 6th was made for forging a narrative and Chaos is the Big Bad of the Galaxy(As they should be), I would be surprised if Daemons and CSM couldn't ally. If you honestly have a problem with Daemon allies, then take IG and pose them as traitor guard. Or Don't play allies at all, pretty simple. I myself, while respsecting others' decision to abstain from allies, they should understand I will not. They don't want to play with me, fine. From a Crunch perspective, I do not care. I ceased caring about the time GK were released and these combinations that were broken to high Hell were overlooked in the spirit of competition. In fact today, after looking over the allies and learning about how Me, a Death Guard player, and the only CSM player in the entire meta(I had been continued playing CSM when the meta switched the Ward's more broken armies) could end up with Plague Marines that wound on a 2+, no armor saves and FnP on a 3+ when the Tally is at max, there was talk of not using allies, from a GK player of all people. As for CSM becoming the new bandwagon to jump on, while it will annoy me that as a loyal chaos player when Chaos was nerfed will be grouped with the bandwagon types. A part of me takes some satisfaction in how we are being taken seriously again.

[abadizzle]

Interesting stuff... I for one love the re-inclusion of daemons. All this talk of 'lost and wasted time in 5th' is pretty moot. Get over it- daemons are back- and in a huge way. My first 6th edition battle included a bloodthirster and bloodletters... Lemme tell ya flying MCs are downright amazing now. Just don't get to over confident- target saturation is key here. A bloodthirster plopped down on turn one in your enemies deployment zone is going to cause some initial panic... But he WILL be shot to bits. Flying MCs get a 24" move while swooping- so be patient- DS behind large cover and wait til the time is right to strike,

 

Same idea for bloodletters, daemonettes, bloodcrushers, etc. Don't try to spearhead your assault w a lone DS squad of troops- they will be targeted and obliterated. Wait until the time is right- overwatch can potentially annihilate daemons- wait til a unit is engaged then assault so your daemon troops won't get overwatched and can do what they do best- play clean up.

 

A good exception to this rule is a squad of suicide flamers... 105 pts for 3 daemons w a non-psychic power wind of chaos will torch that troublesome devastator squad. Remember though you get 1 elite choice for allies- use it wisely.

 

Also, C:SM daemon princes got a huge boost with flying MC... Another word of caution- watch out for skyfire... It can send you hurtling to the ground pretty quick and reliably... Timing and planning is key w swooping MCs.

 

I for one absolutely love having my daemons back... And always remember- if you want an all daemon list w 2 squads of marines, a termi squad, a defiler, and a daemon prince from C:SM... Well run daemons w allied C:SM...

 

ALSO of note- did anyone else notice that the FAQs for 6th have every army listed as "version 1.0 6th) except chaos marines? Perhaps as though there is no intention to make an updated version because we're getting a new codex soon?!

 

Let the Galaxy Burn!

[Jiron]

My Berzerkers are enought striking power. There is just one thing that Khorne's warlord needs more then striking power.

 

MORE STRIKING POWER!!!!!

 

Therefore I go for one of these variants: Bloodthirster, 8 Bloodletters, Blood Crushers or Skulltaker, 8 Bloodletters and 8 Flesh Hounds (maybe with Karanak).

[Phoros]

And now, everyone is playing WB/BL. Not a surprise.

 

Sigh.

 

I literally can't understand this attitude. The limited way some people view the Legions (and the Chaos Powers) sort of horrifies me. They're not Chapters. They're not so narrowly defined, and the 3.5 rules were an abomination of limiting restrictiveness, not some paragon of originality and rules freshness. Christ, I wonder why some people even like Chaos when their perceptions are so skewed.

My WB's are going to have Daemon allies, but that's because their Dark Apostle has, you could say, a "3.5ed mindset". He insists on binding Daemons to his armies, because he thinks that that's what a proper Word Bearer does.

[Phoros]

woops, double post