6th problems and thoughts

[Seahawk]

So, been reading and having fun. It is nice when your GW ordered book comes in early :whistling:.

 

1. When shooting, after saving throws are made you allocate the unsaved wounds to the closest first until they are dead. Also on page 16, it describes how to resolve multiple AP pools (the shooter says who takes what). If the closest are in the open, I can give them the plasma wounds first right? Or, the specialist dudes too. A new way of sniping?

 

2. Problem: Shooting wound allocation is said as both the same and opposite of the assault phase. Shooting you roll saves then allocate. Assault it is wounds, then saves. So which way do we do it?

 

3. Removing models in assault. Do you really have to keep rolling one dice for one guy over and over until he is dead? Hellooooo long long turns...

 

4. Look Out Sir. Am I reading it right in that you only get it once per attack? That makes it pretty pointless, given #3.

 

 

That is all for now. This return to 2nd edition and poor wording is giving me fits!

[angry man]

1. yes, snipe away. hit that IP leading the unit with the melta first and hope he fails his look out sir roll...

 

2. not sure that the order would actually have any impact/make any difference

 

3. i would imagine you could 'fast roll' saving throws the same as in shooting - roll a buch of 3+ saves and remove models from colsest first working back

 

4. i dont understand the question... i read it as you can take a LOS (oh no, conflicting accronym!!! :D ) for each allocated wound (assuming there are enough bodies in range to be sacrificed)

 

i never played 2ED, but i think im going to enjpy 6th...

 

AM

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

So, been reading and having fun. It is nice when your GW ordered book comes in early ;).

 

1. When shooting, after saving throws are made you allocate the unsaved wounds to the closest first until they are dead. Also on page 16, it describes how to resolve multiple AP pools (the shooter says who takes what). If the closest are in the open, I can give them the plasma wounds first right? Or, the specialist dudes too. A new way of sniping?

 

2. Problem: Shooting wound allocation is said as both the same and opposite of the assault phase. Shooting you roll saves then allocate. Assault it is wounds, then saves. So which way do we do it?

 

3. Removing models in assault. Do you really have to keep rolling one dice for one guy over and over until he is dead? Hellooooo long long turns...

 

4. Look Out Sir. Am I reading it right in that you only get it once per attack? That makes it pretty pointless, given #3.

 

 

That is all for now. This return to 2nd edition and poor wording is giving me fits!

 

1. It's looking like it. I can't say I'm a big fan of the new system, but I can't say I'm not, either. Given that it's 4 a.m., my reading comprehension is a bit limited.

 

2. 42.

 

3. On page 16, which is referenced from the assault section, it says you can roll all the dice for a wound set at once, then kill models from front to back. So it doesn't seem like we'll be rolling an Ork horde's hundred attacks one at a time.

 

4. From what I'm seeing, and from what I'm thinking your question is, it looks like it's once per allocated wound, so if I have nine Ork Boy attacks on me, I roll for each one, and reallocate each one if it succeeds.

[Seahawk]

#1

1 is as I thought, excellent. This is the "Lead from the back/behind cover!" edition it seems :lol:.

 

#2

2. not sure that the order would actually have any impact/make any difference

It does. You either roll a bunch of dice, then remove models in their order, or you keep rolling one dice for one guy until he's dead, move to the next, repeat, etc. Basically, it bogs down the game dramatically, and that sucks.

 

3. i would imagine you could 'fast roll' saving throws the same as in shooting - roll a buch of 3+ saves and remove models from colsest first working back

Can't: (p.25)

 

"Wounds are allocated, saves taken, and casualties removed."

"Wounds are allocated and resolved starting with the closest model, just like in the shooting phase."

 

These two sentences are one after another and directly contradict each other.

 

Er, actually, GW is fail. I reread the Shooting phase (p.15), and this is the correct order, here we go:

a. Allocate wounds (for no reason whatsoever)

b. Take saves

c. Allocate wounds

d. Remove casualties

 

Three writers and they still can't do anything coherently...

 

Okay, so #2 is resolved as well, do it like in Shooting with the above order of ops.

 

#3

3. i would imagine you could 'fast roll' saving throws the same as in shooting - roll a buch of 3+ saves and remove models from colsest first working back

 

3. On page 16, which is referenced from the assault section, it says you can roll all the dice for a wound set at once, then kill models from front to back. So it doesn't seem like we'll be rolling an Ork horde's hundred attacks one at a time.

I had believed that, but then I read the two bullet points on page 25, where it says "A wounds must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative step....Rolls the model's saving throw and remove the casualty."

 

Only if all guys in base contact are dead do you then move onto farther dudes. So, you keep allocating one wound over and over on the same guy until he's dead. Even if you tried to fast-roll it, you have to keep allocating wounds to the surviving guys in base contact and rolling saves for them again before you can even start to allocate to further dudes. Just seems to be an extremely clunky way to get it done. And actually, doesn't this apply to shooting, as well? I guess I am just clarifying what it says on page 16. Keep rolling for the same dudes over and over until they die. Kinda lame process I guess.

 

 

#4

 

Ahh, I read it wrong. Issue resolved! :P

 

So, 2 and 3 are still bothering me...I really don't like this system at all.

[Jacinda]

1. You are going to hate this when the shots are coming at you.

 

2. "oh look, krill."

 

3. I think you will see wound allocation and save rolls speed up once you get used to the system. If everyone has the same armor it's not even a change at all. In a mixed unit, roll the number of dice equal to the number of models with the same armor as the closest guy.

 

4. Once per wound (or hit ... depends on how #2 turns out) you can try to pass it off to an underling.

[thade]

We found we could roll in batches today the more familiar we got with the system...but the batching is very different than 5th.

 

Look at your model pool...some guys will be in front, some in back. :( Find the one with the different save(s)...those saves can be different armor, presence of an invuln or different invuln, whatever. All the guys in front of him have to die before he takes any saves (unless Look Out, Sir! is involved). So, say there are N marines in front of the Captain, and the unit gets a Wound Pool of like Nx6 bolter wounds. (I'm truly sorry. Probably Sisters of Battle or some other bologna.)

 

Roll N dice. Say you make them all.

 

Roll N dice again. This time, you fail one. (Remove a marine; now there's only N - 1 marines in front of the Captain.)

 

Roll N-1 dice.

 

See where I'm going?

[Acebaur]

I'm lost. I think I understand shooting so I'll give a couple of examples and someone tell me if I'm right.

 

I shoot a ML and 10 bolter shots at lets say TWC(because I hated those things in 5th :o ) There are 4 TWC lined up in a congo line (for sake of pulling from the front) and the guy second from the front has an SS.

I miraculously score 5 bolter wounds and the ML wound much to the SW players chagrin.

So because I have two wound pools I can decide which pool to start with.

Because I want to do some damage I start with the ML which at AP3 ignores the first TWC's save making him take a wound.

The SS can't be used because he is next in line correct?

Next is the bolter wounds and he fails 3(not his day is it?) The first TWC dies because he's got a wound, the SS guy dies because there is still 2 wounds left and the other two are fine because I'm out of wounds right?

 

 

Another example

 

My Crusader squad with 2 neophyes in it gets shot at by an assault cannon. The first model is an Initiate (regular SM) and then next two are the neophytes, followed by the rest of the squad.

Lets say they all hit and wound for 4 wounds.

Because they are mixed armor does the Initiate roll saves until he fails?

Lets say he makes one and fails the next, the remaining two wounds pass to the neophytes who having a 4+ just eat it instead

 

Does all of that sound right?

 

 

CC just makes my head spin, it sounds like you pick a guy and roll dice until he's dead.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

I believe you're correct on the two examples. And yes, close combat is one guy until he dies.

[Acebaur]

I believe you're correct on the two examples. And yes, close combat is one guy until he dies.

 

That I pick? what about if there are different AP wounds in there? does my opponent still pick which one to start with?

 

Is there anyway to batch roll some of that stuff in CC?

 

If everyone had the same save, could you just roll a dice for everyone in btb and then pull dead guys and do it again?

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

You pick if you're the one shooting the different AP weapons. So if you have some plasma shots and there's a nice, tasty character in front, you can choose to have the plasma wounds go first, meaning the character would get knocked out, followed by the other guys in the squad.

 

For close combat, I'm still trying to come up with a way. It's like the DE Shadow Field, but where everyone has to roll for it. I wouldn't think you'd be able to roll a die for everyone, because one guy has the potential to eat up all the wounds and fail the last save.

[DarkGuard]

Combat is very confusing. On the one hand it does mention that you must continue to allocate wounds to a model until it is removed as a casualty.

 

On the other hand, it mentions Fast Dice, like in the shooting phase, which would suggest you can allocate wounds to a group of same save models in base contact and roll them first, and then reallocate onto survivors.

 

Personally, I think I may got for the latter as it seems to fit into the rules, makes more sense and makes the game quicker.

[Captain Idaho]

For most units you will just see fast rolling for the majority of the squad in batches up to the total number of the normal spods getting hit, then continuing until they all die. So if a unit of Tactical Marines with 7 normal models takes 10 wounds, you'd roll 7 saves then if there are survivers place the last 3 on them.

 

The big slow down and problem is from small units suffering wounds and when a player wants to take the wounds on a particular model for whatever advantage. It will really limit fast rolling.

 

Probably not as slow as it looks, as you just line up the wounds and pick them up and roll them, but still don't know why not use the 4th edition rules which were quickest and cleanest to use.

[DarkGuard]

Well considering that fast rolling only works for different armour saves I don't see a problem with rolling for 7 normal Tactical Marines to try and preserve the specialists, they all have the same armour save so are rolled all at once and removed from the front first.

[Seahawk]

I believe you're correct on the two examples. And yes, close combat is one guy until he dies.

That I pick? what about if there are different AP wounds in there? does my opponent still pick which one to start with?

In the shooting phase, the shooter picks which models take which wounds. The same goes for close combat.

 

Remember though, that you must completely deal with one group of wounds before moving on to the next. Say you're shooting 5 conga-lined marines and the 3rd guy has a storm shield. You cause 5 plasma wounds and 5 bolter wounds. If you choose to start with the AP2 group, the first guy takes one and dies, the second takes one and dies, the third one makes two saves, then on the third one dies, while the last two guys take all the bolter wounds and lose one or two.

 

It's a little different in close combat. Say those 5 dudes are ringed around a character (all in BTB), who scores four AP3 wounds. He can allocate those four to the four guys without the SS and kill them off, making the SS useless until he's one of the few remaining guys left, ensuring a win.

[thade]

You can batch roll in melee, same as shooting; only difference is that it's not purely range based...it's guys in BtB (or maybe it's engaged, rulebook not on hand) and you (the guy making the saves) get to choose what models get pulled when you lose them. So, say you have a Captain and six assault marines in BtB (and several more assault marines coming in). Roll saves for the marines (as described in my shooting example above) until they're all dead, then roll for the Captain.

 

As I understood it, if you choose to roll for the Captain first, he would have to take all of the saves himself...otherwise, when he went down, the assault marines could soak up the remainder.

 

Thade, when could this possibly be useful?

 

Corbulo.

 

Oh...

 

:rolleyes:

[Seahawk]

It is ranged-based as in shooting: closest must die before anyone farther gets allocated any wounds.

 

you (the guy making the saves) get to choose what models get pulled when you lose them

Yes and not at all. The chopper allocates the wounds in any way he sees fit, including any special dudes. The person making the saves (or lack thereof) does not really get to choose anything. Special dudes in BTB die, closest die, then it moves further out, provided it's ignoring armor saves. Enemy characters do provide bullet/chop sponges though.

 

Captain Sicarius got SO much better too. Actually, many SC's did.

 

As did Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor joining PA units. Boss-staches for all!

[thade]

I guess I'll have to re-read that section (agaaaaaaaaaaaain) because I distinctly remember the fundamental difference between wound alloc in Shooting vs wound alloc in Assault being that the defender chooses in the Assault phase (and not in Shooting, where it's randomized.)

[ShinyRhino]

Wound allocation in melee and shooting are largely the same, so long as you have identical saves.

 

Shooting:

 

Roll to hit.

Roll to wound.

Determine the "wound groups" based on S/AP of shots that caused wounds.

Firing player selects the first wound group to be saved against.

Victim player rolls saves (if applicable) for first wound group. Unsaved wounds are applied to the target unit, from closest model to furthest.

After removing casualties, select the second wound group, if applicable, and take saves, if applicable.

 

The monkey wrench comes in when you have units with different saves. For example, you fire at a unit of Long Fangs with an attached Wolf Guard in TDA. The TDA is in the open, as are two Long Fangs, the remaining three are in cover. For simplicity sake, the unit is lined up against you in that order.

You manage to land six bolter wounds, two plasma wounds, and a lascannon wound on the Long Fang unit.

Because the Wolf Guard is closest to you, you know he MUST take the first saves. You decide he will save versus the lascannon group first. He rolls his 5++ and passes. You then decide he will save against plasma. He rolls his first 5++ and fails. He dies and is removed. The next model in line is a Long Fang not in cover. He dies because he has no save versus plasma. There are now four Long Fangs left, all with 3+ armro saves versus your last wound group, the bolters. The opponent rolls all six saves at once, failing two. He removes the two next closest Long Fangs, and the shooting is complete.

 

 

As for close combat, it says models in base contact with A model attacking at a given Initiative Step. Not THE model.

Example:

 

Your Tactical Squad is made up of five bolter-armed Marines and a Sergeant with powerfist. They are engaged with 10 Grots and a Runtherd. The Marines are all in base contact with only Grots, and the Runtherd is "engaged" by being within 2" of the combat.

By some miracle, your bolter Marines land 10 wounds on the enemy unit at I4, and the Grots fail all saves. Removed 10 models that are in base contact with bolter Marines, regardless of armament. That's all the Grots. At I2, the Runtherd Piles In to make base contact with the Marines. Causes one unsaved wound to the Marines, and you remove one bolter Marine. At I1, the Sergeant Piles In to the Runtherd, attacks, and kills him.

 

The complication in melee again comes from mixed saves. Example:

Your Assault Terminaotrs consist of 4 models with lightning claws and a single model with Thunder Hammer and Shield. You are engaged with a unit of Dark Eldar Wyches. The Wyches land 10 saveable wounds on your Marines at I6. Roll all 10 versus your 2+ armor, and you fail two. Remove any two models you like from your TDA, as all are based with a model that attacked at I6.

However, let's say they're engaged with Genestealers instead. The genetealers land the identical 10 saveable wounds, but two of those Rend. You have 8 2+ saves and 2 invulnerable saves. All your Marines are based with Genestealers. In melee, the defender picks the wound group order. You decide that the Rending wounds will be saved first, and that your Shield will take them. You roll the first 3++ save, and fail it. He dies. You then roll the remaining Rending wound save on a 5++ on a claw TDA. You pass. Then you roll all eight of the 2+ armor saveable wounds in one go, failing one, and removeing another claw model.

At I4, your claws can attack. There is no need to Pile In, as all your claw TDA models are already based b Genestealers.

[thade]

ShinyRhino et al...had the Storm Shield Termie in your closing example made both of his saves, once you move onto the armor-saveable wounds, do you again get to choose which group takes them? Or must you continue saving on the TH/SS guy?

[ShinyRhino]

ShinyRhino et al...had the Storm Shield Termie in your closing example made both of his saves, once you move onto the armor-saveable wounds, do you again get to choose which group takes them? Or must you continue saving on the TH/SS guy?

 

Because he's rolling the same armor save, you just roll all the armor saves at once and remove casualties from whichever models you prefer.

[thade]

There we are. Thank you, sir. :lol:

[StrayCatt]

You are both right, although Seahawks appears to be selectively remebering the text ( though likely unintentionally.)

 

You roll to hit ( use majority WS) at INIT step ...

Roll to wound (use majority T) at init step ...

Allocate wounds to closest I.e. base to base. "However, as you'll often have many models in base contact with the enemy, there will be many models tied for the privilege of dying first." (pg 25 BRB)

Allow for saves ... Owning player of the models being attacked removes casualties ...

 

It is relatively straightforward IMO ...

 

Example:

 

10 man Assault Squad w/1power sword attacks a Interrogator attached to 5 tac marines.

 

Resolve 10 auto hits, assume 6 wound at Init 10 ... Defender rolls 5 saves for tac marines ... Saves 3 ... 2 Tac models removed ... Rolls another and saves ...

 

Chappy piles in and rolls attacks, causing 2 wounds ... Assault marines save 1, 1 assault marine in BTB with chappy is removed. Attackers then roll for 27 hits, wound on 10 after pile in, 1 tac marine not in BTB ... Defender rolls 2 dice for save until the tacs are dead ... Say he saves 4, and fails on 2 ... 4 remain unsaved. Chappy rolls for save, saves twice, and fails twice, chappy is dead and removed (he already attacked) ... Defender resolves attacks for 3 tacs, then removes two dead tac marines ... Then combat resolution occurs ...

 

Whips ... Took too long ...

[Seahawk]

You are both right, although Seahawks appears to be selectively remebering the text

Not at all ;).

 

I was more focused on a smaller and easier example: Captain power sword vs 5 guys, one with a storm shield. Causes 5 AP3 wounds

 

Because of the mixed saves bit, say the Captain's player for some reason starts with trying to off the SS dude. SS dude passes save #1...then #2, #3, #4, and #5. These all have to be rolled for singly, because as soon as he is dead the remaining wounds go amongst other members. A captain with an excellent roll like that would be very angry that a single dude saved everything when in previous editions, everyone else would be dead!

 

I suppose one way to look at it is that you can allocate as many wounds to a certain group as there are wounds available to soak them up. That way you can't over fail and have it transfer on.

 

I dunno, maybe I just need a game or two to sort out this absolutely :devil: terrible bit of rules writing.

 

I can't wait to face GKT, where every guy is different and you can't batch roll for anything. *sigh*

[ShinyRhino]

I can't wait to face GKT, where every guy is different and you can't batch roll for anything. *sigh*

 

Armament means absolutely nothing anymore. It now all goes on available saves and base contact.

[thade]

I can't wait to face GKT, where every guy is different and you can't batch roll for anything. *sigh*

I mean, they're actually mostly the same, right? 2+/5++ (they can't get storm shields). In melee one of them may be 2++, another few may be 4++, so it's a lil different. The thing that will gum up the works there are Paladins (and Nobz...and Tervigons...all of which are Characters according to the new BGB) and each one of them can decide "Look Out, Sir!" 4+ is a good idea now and again....