dreadknights are taking off the gloves

[GOFADK]

What about page 51? It says you kan use both weapons.

[RedemptionNL]

Which line are you referring to? The only bit on page 51 I see is the 'More than one weapon' paragraph that states you have to choose which weapon you are using, and cannot mix and match weapon abilities. Only that you get an extra attack if you have two Specialist Weapons or two non-Specialist weapons.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I don't see what the big deal is really... even against vehicles we can now go to smash mode with the greatsword, which doubles the strength to 10 but still keeps the greatswords rerolls on pretty much everything. This still seems preferable to using the doomfist. Since a DCCW isn't a specialist weapon we get the +1 bonus attack now, but I don't think there's any precedent to trying to claim the strength bonus with the greatsword. It's an either/or sort of thing. If a model was armed with a thunderhammer and a lightning claw they certainly don't get to double their strength and attack with the lightning claw, nor do they get to reroll wounds if they're using the thunderhammer ;)

[Aidoneus]

The argument isn't a BRB one; it's directly in the codex. The wording on the Nemesis Greatsword specifically says

A model with a Nemesis Greatsword re-rolls failed To Hit, To Wound and armour penetration rolls in close combat.

Note, it gives the re-rolls so long as the model simply has the Greatsword. It doesn't indicate that only the Greatsword has the re-rolls, or that the model only gets them when it attacks with the Greatsword. So you can pay 25pts to carry around the Greatsword, just never actually swing with it. Its mere presence will give you re-rolls no matter what weapon you use, and you'd much rather use that S10 Doomfist than the S6 Greatsword.

[BrotherWasted]

I don't see what the big deal is really... even against vehicles we can now go to smash mode with the greatsword, which doubles the strength to 10 but still keeps the greatswords rerolls on pretty much everything. This still seems preferable to using the doomfist. Since a DCCW isn't a specialist weapon we get the +1 bonus attack now, but I don't think there's any precedent to trying to claim the strength bonus with the greatsword. It's an either/or sort of thing. If a model was armed with a thunderhammer and a lightning claw they certainly don't get to double their strength and attack with the lightning claw, nor do they get to reroll wounds if they're using the thunderhammer ;)

 

Inquisitor - the Strength only gets doubled when using the Doomfist, since the double Strength is part of the weapon profile now and not a separate ability. You must declare you are using the Doomfist in order to get double Strength :D

 

Very minor thing, but people can call you out if you use the sword and claim double strength.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Inquisitor - the Strength only gets doubled when using the Doomfist, since the double Strength is part of the weapon profile now and not a separate ability. You must declare you are using the Doomfist in order to get double Strength :D

 

Very minor thing, but people can call you out if you use the sword and claim double strength.

In previous editions yes... however Monstrous Creatures now have a "smash" option.. which is where they halve their # of attacks but double their strength. This replaces the +2d6 armor pen of previous editions as far as I can tell.

 

so instead of "mythical statline A" of 4 attacks at str 5 +2d6 armor pen... we'd have:

 

normal 4 attacks str 5 + 1d6 vs vehicles

or

smash 2 attacks str 10 + 1d6 vs vehicles.

 

I am pointing out that instead of worrying about using the doomfist for the strength 10, why don't we just use a "smash" attack with the greatsword and get rerolls ;) (since I am of the camp that we cannot use a doomfist and a greatsword and try to say our greatsword gets str 10).

[nurglez]

DK is str6 ^_^, and I agree that you cant combine both weapons, but it is rather open to both thanks to wording.

 

Smash attacking with a greatsword means business :)

[Chairman_woo]

What do people think about taking the rangedd weapons on him now? He clearly got alot better as a CC beatstick but shooting is still as important as ever (if not more so) and the heavy psycannon now seems pretty good. Blasts hit vehicles anywhere under the marker and rending is ap2 which got a whole lot more important to have. Combined with a heavy incinerator you can force alot of high S wounds onto terminators and the like at reasonable range, some of which might rend. Maybe even run him with just a heavy psycannon now for cheap?

[Inquisitor Fox]

DK is str6 ;), and I agree that you cant combine both weapons, but it is rather open to both thanks to wording.

 

Smash attacking with a greatsword means business ;)

I wrote str 5 as I didn't have the Codex with me at work and was trying to demonstrate more how smash worked to my limited understanding, but true! :D

[RedemptionNL]

normal 4 attacks str 5 + 1d6 vs vehicles

or

smash 2 attacks str 10 + 1d6 vs vehicles with a reroll for armour penetration.

 

;)

[Valerian]

normal 4 attacks str 5 + 1d6 vs vehicles

or

smash 2 attacks str 10 + 1d6 vs vehicles with a reroll for armour penetration.

 

:)

 

I will still much rather charge the vehicle, declare that I'm going to use my S10 Doomfist, and get 5 attacks at S10 without the re-rolls for AP. In my opinion, 2 or 3 attacks with AP re-rolls < 4 or 5 attacks without AP re-rolls, especially since you are attacking at S10 in either case.

 

V

[boreas]

I guess it depends on the vehicle... Vs AV10, using the doomfists at full attack is a no-brainer. Vs AV14, it's adifferent story... or is it?

 

-5 attacks, 3 hits (the vehicle has moved!), each hit has a 33% chance to penetrate for a total 70% chance of a penetrate (no, it's not 3 times 33%!).

 

-3 attacks (do you round up!?), 2 hits, each hit has a 56% chance to penetrate with the re-roll for a total 80% chance to penetrate.

 

So, with the Smash attack, you've got a better chance of getting a penetrate on a LR/Monolith, but less chances to do damage overall (assuming my math is right!).

 

Phil

 

ps: a St10 hit has 33% chance to penetrate, 66% chance to not penetrate. With a re-roll, you consider the chance of not-penetating, which is (66% x 66%)= 44%, leaving a 56% chance to penetrate. The chance of both hits not penetrating is (44% x 44%) = 19%, so I get a (rounded) 80% chance of at least one penetrating.

[Valerian]

Yes, you always round up in 40k.

 

Second, all you need is to glance enough to remove the hull points; don't need to penetrate., so what's the math on that?

 

V

[boreas]

Part 2, including glancing...

 

Vs AV10, using the doomfists at full attack is a no-brainer. Vs AV14, it's adifferent story... or is it?

 

-5 attacks. 3 hits and 50% chance of removing a HP. Chances of removing are:

 

0HP: 12.5%

1HP: 37.5%

2HP: 37.5%

3HP: 12.5%

 

-3 attacks (do you round up!?), 2 hits, each hit has a 75% chance to remove a HP

 

0HP: 6.25%

1HP: 37.5%

2HP: 56%

 

So with the latter, you've got a better chance at penetrating and a slightly better chance at removing 2HP. The cost is that you've got no chance of removing 3+ HP. But really, odds of hitting 4+ times are about 5%, and then chances of removing 4+ HP are about 2.5%. Pretty slim. So really, then smash attack feels like it's got a better risk-to-results potential against AV14. That being said, a cheap sacrificial squad of 3 henchmen with meltaguns has a slightly better chance (33%) of one-shotting a LR... if they manage to reach the melta range.

 

 

Moral of the story: Dreadknight is an absolute beast against AV10-11 (most armor) as it will auto-destroy it in CC everytime, barring bad luck. If an AV14 tank has lost 2-3 hull points, you can expect your DK to destroy it most of the time. If it's lost 0-1 HP, it's getting edgy, don't bet your game on the move.

 

 

Phil

[Aidoneus]

So with the latter, you've got a better chance at penetrating and a slightly better chance at removing 2HP. The cost is that you've got no chance of removing 3+ HP.

No offense Boreas, but I have to question any calculation that says 3 attacks has 0% chance of causing 3 Hull Points. Odds aren't great, sure, but the chance is there.

 

Here's my calculation of the relevant statistics. Because we're comparing attack options, I used average number of damage results as the dependent variable, because it's simple and gives us a simple number to compare. The Greatsword says you only re-roll failures, so I never re-rolled a glance to make it a pen. I also assumed the target was moving in every case. Against a stationary target, the Doomfists would be slightly better compared to the Greatsword. Also, this assumes the Greatsword doesn't let you re-roll the Str10 hits from the Doomfist, which I still maintain the clear wording allows. If that were the case, I think we can all agree that it would be the obviously-superior option in every case.

 

There are lots of comparisons to be made and analysis to be done. Put simply, sometimes the Sword is better (Hammerhand vs. low-AV vehicles), but the Doomfist is almost always better, especially if you care more about Pens than Glances. Anyway, here are the results, so you can take from them what you will.

 

http://i1169.photobucket.com/albums/r520/A...DamageChart.jpg

http://i1169.photobucket.com/albums/r520/Aidoneus44/DreadknightDamageChart.jpg

[boreas]

Haha, my calculation was based on 2 hits, not 3 attacks.... So no possibilty of removing 3 HP! I assumed 3 attacks 2 hits because it's a good statistical probablity and 2-events statitics becomes that much harder to compute when your' trying to seen the chance of each outcome (1HP, 2HP,...). Chemistry was always my stronger thing, not math :P In any case, those 3 HP would actually be down 3.6% of the time with 3 smash attacks, but still insufficient to take down a mint LR only on HP!

 

While my stats were definitely not as extensive as yours, I still come to the same conclusion if you plan to use your DK as a tank hunter: Dreadknight with only fists an absolute beast against AV10-11 (most armor) as it will auto-destroy it in CC everytime, barring bad luck. If assualing an AV14, you should always use "smash". If the tank has lost 2-3 hull points, you can expect your DK to destroy it most of the time. If it's lost 0-1 HP, it's getting edgy, don't bet your game on the move.

 

The sword is only worth it if you plan to go into CC vs infantry, IMHO. But then again, I still plan to use my DK with only Incinerator. It's cheap and efficient to deal with troops while quite capable of killing most vehicle (barring that mint AV14 vehicle!)

 

Phil

 

ps you table didn't include fists+smash: I get those results, vs14 (because vs AV10 it's not useful and other AV, in CC, are not common)

 

Attacks: 3 , hits: 2, chance to glance: 34% chance to penetrate: 56%: average glance: 0.68 average pen: 1.12, total: 1.8

 

That still the best average of pens vs 14 and the best average of total HP vs AV14. Still in line with my 2 HP being the expected results!

[Aidoneus]

If assualing an AV14, you should always use "smash". If the tank has lost 2-3 hull points, you can expect your DK to destroy it most of the time. If it's lost 0-1 HP, it's getting edgy, don't bet your game on the move.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you arguing that a dreadknight equipped only with doomfists should use Smash? He's already S10! Sacrificing 2 attacks is not worth re-rolls to-pen. Are you perhaps thinking of 5th ed, when the doomfists were S6?

 

Here's the math on Doomfist Smashing:

 

On the charge

AV10: 0 glance, 2 pen, 2 total

AV11: .333 glance, 1.667 pen, 2 total

AV12: .389 glance, 1.556 pen, 1.944 total

AV13: .444 glance, 1.333 pen, 1.778 total

AV14: .5 glance, 1 pen, 1.5 total

 

Not charging

AV10: 0 glance, 1.333 pen, 1.333 total

AV11: .222 glance, 1.111 pen, 1.333 total

AV12: .259 glance, 1.037 pen, 1.296 total

AV13: .296 glance, .889 pen, 1.185 total

AV14: .333 glance, .667 pen, 1 total

 

The math clearly indicates that using your full attacks with the Doomfists, rather than sacrificing 2 attacks to Smash.

 

The sword is only worth it if you plan to go into CC vs infantry, IMHO. But then again, I still plan to use my DK with only Incinerator. It's cheap and efficient to deal with troops while quite capable of killing most vehicle (barring that mint AV14 vehicle!)

Agreed. For 160pts, you get an excellent all-round unit. That heavy incinerator is worth its weight in gold!

[boreas]

Weird... Charging with doomfists and smash, I get:

 

average glance: 0.68 average pen: 1.12, total: 1.8

 

Let's see, I'll redo my maths: 5 attacks, come down to 3 (half, round up).

 

-66% chance hitting

-56% chance penetrating (66% x 66% chance of NOT penetrating: 44%, so 56% chance penetrating): 1.12 pen

-19% glancing: (50% x 50% chance of doing nothing= 25%) (100% chance - 56% penetrating - 25% chance of doing nothing): 0.38 glance

 

Total: 1.5 (worse than not smashing, getting 1.666).

 

Ah.... Quite right, I've fumbled my glancing before (used 33% x 33% instead of 50% x 50%). So you're absolutely right, smash is never worth it against even AV14.

 

 

Phil

[Valerian]

Ah.... Quite right, I've fumbled my glancing before (used 33% x 33% instead of 50% x 50%). So you're absolutely right, smash is never worth it against even AV14.

 

Which is exactly what I've been saying in multiple threads on this very thing all week - when you've got the choice between 5 S10 attacks on the charge, and 3 S10 attacks with rerolls for AP, just go with the basic attacks - the Smash attacks to nothing for our Nemesis Dreadknights, because of our sweet Nemesis Doomfist, which you even get to keep and use if you upgrade one arm to carrying the Great Sword.

 

It'll play out much differently for other Monstrous Creatures, but for the NDKs the Smash move will really never be the smart play.

 

Valerian