Sooo... Daemon 'Weapons', what are they?

[totgeboren]

So, do all 'Daemon Weapon' just use their rules and add an Ap3 to that, or do the rules work like Power 'Weapons' and Force 'Weapons', where the shape of the weapon give additional rules?

I wonder, would an Accursed Crosius made using the chaos star top piece from the CSM box count as a Daemon 'Maul' or a Daemon 'Axe'? I would say 'Maul', but that is based more on fluff than look. The shape is closer to an axe really...

Or maybe its just Ap3 no matter the shape?

 

It seems like the rule is 'No Ap2 if you swing at normal I, unless you are a huge monster-thingy!"

 

Abbadon seems to have Ap3 now, as Power Swords have Ap3 and I think LCs have Ap3 too. Talk about being nerfed!

 

What say you? The FAQ was characteristicly helpful as far as GW clarification goes.

[khurdur]

I think its all AP3...

[totgeboren]

But Kharns axe is now officialy an 'Axe', as is Typhus Manreaper.

To me, that indicates that if you want an Ap3 Daemon Weapon, you should use a sword. If you use an Axe, you get I1 but +1S and Ap2 and so on.

 

Personally I find the idea of an Undivided Daemon Maul quite appealing. My Lord would have S7 Ap4, concussive with lots of attacks at I5. He could easily pound a Dreadnought to mush before it even gets to swing. :)

[Perry]

Personally I find the idea of an Undivided Daemon Maul quite appealing. My Lord would have S7 Ap4, concussive with lots of attacks at I5. He could easily pound a Dreadnought to mush before it even gets to swing. :D

 

 

 

Sounds good, looking forward to doing the same with my Dark Apostle ;)

[the jeske]

it doesnt work like that . they are just ap3 . everything else like gaining extra A , str etc has to be covered by the dex or the FAQ .

[totgeboren]

it doesnt work like that . they are just ap3 . everything else like gaining extra A , str etc has to be covered by the dex or the FAQ .

 

I might be mistaken, but the rules for Daemon Weapons state that they are a "Power Weapon". Plus some extra rules. So why would they not be able to use the rules for "Power Weapons"?

[Excessus]

Daemon weapons are power weapons just as always, and as such they are what the models shows them to be.

 

Have you modelled your lord with an axe, then it follows those rules, a sword, then those rules...and so on...

[Warsmith Aznable]

Outside of the narrow chance to kill yourself while providing some extra attacks, the bonus of the unmarked daemon weapon is a strength bonus. So this would look like:

 

Sword = Str user +1

Axe = Str user +2

Maul = Str user + 3

Spear = Str user +2/+1

 

That's how I read that. I see no reason in RAW why the strength bonuses wouldn't stack since the one is a benefit from being a daemon weapon, and the other is a benefit of the melee weapon type. Daemon effects are additions to weapons, is how I see it.

 

I base that on Daemon Weapon and Force Axe being separate considerations as per the FAQ:

 

The FAQ says that Typhus' Manreaper is specifically both a Daemon Weapon and a Force Axe, so in CC I would put his Strength at 6. If we can't use the listed initiative, then we also get to modify that Str characteristic. It only makes sense.

 

EDIT: fixing the power spear numbers on account of math is hard

[totgeboren]

Yeah, except the spear is +2/+1. A Blissgiver Spear would be quite brutal. +1 S Ap3 and instant kill on the charge at I 6. Bye bye monsters! :lol:

 

Also it's worth noting that a Frost blade now is a sword or axe depending on the model.

[Excessus]

The problem with daemon weapons is the text under "Unusual power weapons" in the new BRB...

 

I for one can't see a reason to nerf the DWs even more and just make them 'ap3'...

[Brother Ambroz]

So since all daemon weapons are classified by whatever they look like, can we make a bloodfeeder chainfist?

[TheDarkApostle]

So since all daemon weapons are classified by whatever they look like, can we make a bloodfeeder chainfist?

That's not how it works.

 

Rule Book 61:

"Power Weapons

If a models wargear says it has a power weapon with no further special rules, look at the model..to see what it has"

 

Rule Book 61:

"Unique Power Weapons:

If a weapon has it's own unique close combat rules treat it as an AP3 weapon with the additional rules.."

 

A Daemon Weapon has the unique close combat rules of +D6 Attacks and the additional Mark bonus.

 

Thus it's a Unique Power Weapon and does not get any possible bonus for being a sword, mace, spear or axe. Or anything else for that matter.

 

TDA

[Brother Ambroz]

Hmm I'm thinking a TDA lord with a bloodfeeder axe then might not be too bad. Or just a TDA lord with unmarked axe would be nice too. It'd actually be like an old darkblade.

[JamesI]

So since all daemon weapons are classified by whatever they look like, can we make a bloodfeeder chainfist?

That's not how it works.

 

Rule Book 61:

"Power Weapons

If a models wargear says it has a power weapon with no further special rules, look at the model..to see what it has"

 

Rule Book 61:

"Unique Power Weapons:

If a weapon has it's own unique close combat rules treat it as an AP3 weapon with the additional rules.."

 

A Daemon Weapon has the unique close combat rules of +D6 Attacks and the additional Mark bonus.

 

Thus it's a Unique Power Weapon and does not get any possible bonus for being a sword, mace, spear or axe. Or anything else for that matter.

 

TDA

Exactly.

 

Khârn should have been the same way, but they FAQed Khârn around that.

[TheDarkApostle]

@ Tanith Ghost

 

No it wouldn't.

 

Daemon Weapons does not get bonuses for being axes or maces.

 

An unmarked Daemon Weapon will be 2handed, +D6 Attacks, +1Strength, AP3 no matter what you model it as. Because it's a Daemon Weapon.

 

Just as a Blissgiver will be 2handed, +D6 Attacks, Instant Death, AP3 no matter what you model it as.

 

Etc for the rest of the weapons.

[Plague Angel]

How people define the word "unique" in this context is going to be the biggest obstacle in debates, for now.

[Venemox]

You have two options that you HAVE to take one (and ONLY one of):

 

Option A:

Rule Book 61:

"Power Weapons

If a models wargear says it has a power weapon with no further special rules, look at the model..to see what it has"

 

Option B:

Rule Book 61:

"Unique Power Weapons:

If a weapon has it's own unique close combat rules treat it as an AP3 weapon with the additional rules.."

 

If it's not option A (any rules other than 'power weapon'), then it MUST be B. It's not how we define 'unique', it's how you define 'no further special rules'.

There's a whole section of special rules, plus a host in each codex to boot. If it has ANY of those, it CANNOT be option A.

[*Furyou Miko]

Except for Space Wolves. They're special (they get the stats of the power weapon at +1 strength to its power weapon stats... so yes, +3 Str frost mauls, and AP3 frost swords...)

[TheDarkApostle]

Except for Space Wolves. They're special (they get the stats of the power weapon at +1 strength to its power weapon stats... so yes, +3 Str frost mauls, and AP3 frost swords...)

Except they don't.

 

Frost Blades and Frost Axes are specifically mentioned in the Space Wolves FAQ and given new profiles which also removes all references to being Power Weapons.

 

TDA

[*Furyou Miko]

Yes, but TDA... if you do the math, you'll soon realise that they are still just the power weapon profile at +1 strength.

 

So, I guess no Frost Mauls. But that's not a big loss to them.

[JamesI]

You have two options that you HAVE to take one (and ONLY one of):

 

Option A:

Rule Book 61:

"Power Weapons

If a models wargear says it has a power weapon with no further special rules, look at the model..to see what it has"

 

Option B:

Rule Book 61:

"Unique Power Weapons:

If a weapon has it's own unique close combat rules treat it as an AP3 weapon with the additional rules.."

 

If it's not option A (any rules other than 'power weapon'), then it MUST be B. It's not how we define 'unique', it's how you define 'no further special rules'.

There's a whole section of special rules, plus a host in each codex to boot. If it has ANY of those, it CANNOT be option A.

This fits my interpretation.

 

By this wording, Typhus would have had an AP3 weapon, not an axe until GW FAQed it. Same with Khârn being turned from AP3 to a power axe specifically.

 

Any weapon with rules beyond "power weapon" are AP3 unless GW specifically tells us otherwise, such as Demon Weapons, Abbadon's weapons, Relic Blades and others.

[TheDarkApostle]

@ Furyou Miko

 

Well of course they are.

 

It's what they've always been ever since their very first incarnation. Would be strange if they were not :D

 

TDA

[Plague Angel]

You have two options that you HAVE to take one (and ONLY one of)...

 

If it's not option A (any rules other than 'power weapon'), then it MUST be B. It's not how we define 'unique', it's how you define 'no further special rules'.

There's a whole section of special rules, plus a host in each codex to boot. If it has ANY of those, it CANNOT be option A.

 

This makes sense to me. I'm convinced.

[totgeboren]

It seems like my dreams of a Daemon Maul have been shattered, as the rules for Daemon weapons are only found in the Chaos codex, making them unique.

 

However, I do want to point out that this is not the approach GW is taking, as they have gone out their way to classify most non-sword weapons found on their models according to shape. That's why we now have Frost Swords and Axes, and the official examples of Daemon Weapons (Abbadon and Typhus) use the rules for a sword and an Axe respectively. Even Kharns axe became an Axe.

 

To me it is fairly apparent that the reason why Daemon Weapons all use the rules for Swords (except Typhus, becuase it isn't a sword) is because there are no official models carrying generic daemon weapons. RAI vs RAW, as GW have gone against the rulebook in every example of a non-sword power weapon with some fancy extra rule I know of I think RAI is fairly obvious.

 

But a new codex awaits, and Ap3 is still quite good too in the meantime.

[*Furyou Miko]

Does the daemon prince not have a daemon weapon that is a sword?