Kassill Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 So, after reading that Frost Axes are basically useless now (extra attack with pistol not a good trade off) I got to thinking, Logan Grimnar wields the Axe of Morkai pg 56... "...The Axe of Morkai may be used as a Frost Blade (So, is it a blade, or an Axe?) or, if Logan wields it with both hands, a power fist. Logan may allocate his Attacks as he sees fit between these two modes; for example, taking two of his Attacks as power fist attacks and the rest as Frost Blade attacks." Now I know a lot of you will say "You answered you own question, its a Frost Blade...." But really? The whole thing about CCW in 6th now is whether they are an Axe, Blade, Fist, Hammer etc... So how can Logan, who clearly has an Axe count as having a blade? So brothers, will he strike at Intiative when using the frost blade or will all his attacks go last, since he has an Axe? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254984-logan-always-striking-last-now/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Unless the FAQ or rulebook specifically covers this, I imagine it will fall under the Special Close Combat Weapons ruling i.e follow the codex ruling for the weapon. A Frost Blade is not a Power Axe, so it shouldn't use those rules (unless specifically stated). That, and an axe is still a blade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254984-logan-always-striking-last-now/#findComment-3101967 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kassill Posted June 30, 2012 Author Share Posted June 30, 2012 Unless the FAQ or rulebook specifically covers this, I imagine it will fall under the Special Close Combat Weapons ruling i.e follow the codex ruling for the weapon. A Frost Blade is not a Power Axe, so it shouldn't use those rules (unless specifically stated). That, and an axe is still a blade. New FAQ states.... "Frost Blade Str +1 AP3 Melee" "Frost Axe Str +2 AP2 Melee, Unwieldy (which I have been seeing means Intiative 1)" The question is, is his Axe of Morkai an Axe or a Blade, as they have different stats. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254984-logan-always-striking-last-now/#findComment-3101976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Morkai may be used as frost blade or if Logan wields with both hands, a powerfist Frost blade +1 Str AP3 simple Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254984-logan-always-striking-last-now/#findComment-3101982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Unless the FAQ or rulebook specifically covers this, I imagine it will fall under the Special Close Combat Weapons ruling i.e follow the codex ruling for the weapon. A Frost Blade is not a Power Axe, so it shouldn't use those rules (unless specifically stated). That, and an axe is still a blade. New FAQ states.... "Frost Blade Str +1 AP3 Melee" "Frost Axe Str +2 AP2 Melee, Unwieldy (which I have been seeing means Intiative 1)" The question is, is his Axe of Morkai an Axe or a Blade, as they have different stats. The AXE of Morkai is it's name, it's rules state that it is a Frost BLADE. Therefore until this is changed by a new codex, you would use the rules for Frost Blades i.e S+1, AP3 Look at it like this; if someone had made up their own Successor to Space Wolves and took a counts-as Logan Grimnar but modelled him with the SWORD of Morkai, would they get different stats now? Would their Logan be faster than yours? No, they would still use the rules for the weapon given in the codex, until said codex is updated. It's a Frost BLADE. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254984-logan-always-striking-last-now/#findComment-3101985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khine Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Unless the FAQ or rulebook specifically covers this, I imagine it will fall under the Special Close Combat Weapons ruling i.e follow the codex ruling for the weapon. A Frost Blade is not a Power Axe, so it shouldn't use those rules (unless specifically stated). That, and an axe is still a blade. New FAQ states.... "Frost Blade Str +1 AP3 Melee" "Frost Axe Str +2 AP2 Melee, Unwieldy (which I have been seeing means Intiative 1)" The question is, is his Axe of Morkai an Axe or a Blade, as they have different stats. The AXE of Morkai is it's name, it's rules state that it is a Frost BLADE. Therefore until this is changed by a new codex, you would use the rules for Frost Blades i.e S+1, AP3 Look at it like this; if someone had made up their own Successor to Space Wolves and took a counts-as Logan Grimnar but modelled him with the SWORD of Morkai, would they get different stats now? Would their Logan be faster than yours? No, they would still use the rules for the weapon given in the codex, until said codex is updated. It's a Frost BLADE. Funny you should mention that... xD im making an Engir Krakendoom .. logan counts as.... but with the ... HARPOON of Morkai. =x Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254984-logan-always-striking-last-now/#findComment-3101996 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milez Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Dante and Asroth have axes, but their rules state power weapon, and the FAq does not change them an axe ,unlike Khârn whose FAQ specifically stated Gorechild is a power axe. So Logans weapon, even tho states it is an axe, it is a frost blade, so +1 str and AP3 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254984-logan-always-striking-last-now/#findComment-3102005 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormbrow II Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 So Logans weapon, even tho states it is an axe, it is a frost blade, so +1 str and AP3 As the others have said, it's on page 56 of C:SW where the Axe Morkai can be used as either a Frost Blade or a Power Fist. Although in general, the Frost Axe is now useless, as the Power Fist does the same job but doubles your S value. I've more thoughts on my blog about how Wolves are affected. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254984-logan-always-striking-last-now/#findComment-3102024 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kassill Posted June 30, 2012 Author Share Posted June 30, 2012 I'm quite aware of what is states on pg 56, it's even in my original post..... What I'm addressing is the WYSIWYG problem. If Logan has an Axe, but uses blade rules, can I also model Lords/etc with Axes, but use blade rules? Probably not, and would get called out for rules abuse. It just irritates me as Axes are Wolfy (our Wolf King wields one!) but they got tossed out the window with these ridiculous rules. :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254984-logan-always-striking-last-now/#findComment-3102034 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmande Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 I'll just continue using chainaxes to represent MotW, whose value has gone up exponentially now. :lol: The fact that Dante and Astoroth were specifically FAQd to stay the same while Khârn and Typhus (who might get new rules soonish) were changed is more evidence that Logan keeps his attacks at Initiative if using the Frost Blade as stated. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254984-logan-always-striking-last-now/#findComment-3102047 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Guard Dan Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Now I know a lot of you will say "You answered you own question, its a Frost Blade...." Ruled as written Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254984-logan-always-striking-last-now/#findComment-3102100 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nadir Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 From C:SW p.56 "The Axe of Morkai may be used as a frost BLADE or, if Logan wields it with both hands, a power fist." So it is an axe but work as a blade or fist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254984-logan-always-striking-last-now/#findComment-3102125 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosjetka Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Repeating the whole thing again and again isn't going to help him, people. Ludovic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254984-logan-always-striking-last-now/#findComment-3102192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
clanfield Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 the new rule book is clear on this if it looks like a axe or halbard its a axe (on the model) sword dagger =wepon spear or lance =lance ofc its nasty as a frost axe which gos some ways to helping Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254984-logan-always-striking-last-now/#findComment-3102214 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmande Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 There's literally no reason to use the Frost Axe version if it was ruled as such. It was left alone in the FAQ where other characters have had their wargear changed, and the codex explicitly says Frost Blade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254984-logan-always-striking-last-now/#findComment-3102216 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 What I'm addressing is the WYSIWYG problem. If Logan has an Axe, but uses blade rules, can I also model Lords/etc with Axes, but use blade rules? Probably not, and would get called out for rules abuse. I think you are after a different answer than the question posed. Logan has been answered "works as a frost blade" He is a special character with some unique-ness. WG or an IC of your creation will not have this rule. So if they have a "frost axe" he will be ap2 and I1 and +1str. Personally, I have not heard of GW saying you can't "count as". I think local groups you'll see a lot of acceptance of seeing an axe and and the SW player saying "all axes are swords". To me, it's really no different than today where I have axes count as power fists or thunder hammers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254984-logan-always-striking-last-now/#findComment-3102241 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 the new rule book is clear on this if it looks like a axe or halbard its a axe (on the model)sword dagger =wepon spear or lance =lance ofc its nasty as a frost axe which gos some ways to helping Wrong when it comes to Logan. The rulebook is clear on power weapons using the rules as how they look. Axes are axes and use the rules for axes. Swords are swords and use the rules for swords. The SW FAQ tells you exactly what a frost blade does and what a frost axe does. Logan's weapon, per the RAW is a frost blade and follows the rules for a frost blade, albeit with the additional bonus of also being used as a powerfist. To the person asking about modeling axes and playing them as swords, you will have to go all or nothing IMO. An opponent might get a little cranky if you start mixing swords and axes with the same axe model. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254984-logan-always-striking-last-now/#findComment-3102283 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 the new rule book is clear on this if it looks like a axe or halbard its a axe (on the model)sword dagger =wepon spear or lance =lance ofc its nasty as a frost axe which gos some ways to helping Wrong when it comes to Logan. The rulebook is clear on power weapons using the rules as how they look. Axes are axes and use the rules for axes. Swords are swords and use the rules for swords. The SW FAQ tells you exactly what a frost blade does and what a frost axe does. Logan's weapon, per the RAW is a frost blade and follows the rules for a frost blade, albeit with the additional bonus of also being used as a powerfist. To the person asking about modeling axes and playing them as swords, you will have to go all or nothing IMO. An opponent might get a little cranky if you start mixing swords and axes with the same axe model. "Crankiness" depends on the meta location. My local group is pretty laid back. I've heard of other groups who were akin to boot camp in the military. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254984-logan-always-striking-last-now/#findComment-3102292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormbrow II Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 To the person asking about modeling axes and playing them as swords, you will have to go all or nothing IMO. An opponent might get a little cranky if you start mixing swords and axes with the same axe model. So you're saying suck it up because Logan's situation is unique to him? Cool. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254984-logan-always-striking-last-now/#findComment-3102347 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 To the person asking about modeling axes and playing them as swords, you will have to go all or nothing IMO. An opponent might get a little cranky if you start mixing swords and axes with the same axe model. So you're saying suck it up because Logan's situation is unique to him? Cool. No, I am saying depending on the patience of your opponent in trying to remember which of you axe bearing models are being played as blades and which of you axe bearing models are actually axes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254984-logan-always-striking-last-now/#findComment-3102358 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 To the person asking about modeling axes and playing them as swords, you will have to go all or nothing IMO. An opponent might get a little cranky if you start mixing swords and axes with the same axe model. So you're saying suck it up because Logan's situation is unique to him? Cool. No, I am saying depending on the patience of your opponent in trying to remember which of you axe bearing models are being played as blades and which of you axe bearing models are actually axes. Perhaps model in a way where some axes are axes and some axes are power weapons? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254984-logan-always-striking-last-now/#findComment-3102379 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wispy Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 What I'm addressing is the WYSIWYG problem. If Logan has an Axe, but uses blade rules, can I also model Lords/etc with Axes, but use blade rules? Probably not, and would get called out for rules abuse. Of course you can. If you're paying for you own HQ and its a frost blade in your army list, then okay, no problem. I can't say I've ever met an opponent who has been that strict with the rules, and I've met some doozies. There is no actual model for a 'frost blade,' so we still have a wide range of flexibility here when representing one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254984-logan-always-striking-last-now/#findComment-3102385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wispy Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 To the person asking about modeling axes and playing them as swords, you will have to go all or nothing IMO. An opponent might get a little cranky if you start mixing swords and axes with the same axe model. Yeah, that's what I'll be doing. Just keeping it simple. "My army uses a lot of power axe models, but for simplicities sake I'm using them all as just swords." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254984-logan-always-striking-last-now/#findComment-3102391 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 To the person asking about modeling axes and playing them as swords, you will have to go all or nothing IMO. An opponent might get a little cranky if you start mixing swords and axes with the same axe model. So you're saying suck it up because Logan's situation is unique to him? Cool. No, I am saying depending on the patience of your opponent in trying to remember which of you axe bearing models are being played as blades and which of you axe bearing models are actually axes. Perhaps model in a way where some axes are axes and some axes are power weapons? I am more concerned with the following scenario, "Well these three wolf guard have frost blades and these three wolf guard have frost axes." A few turns later. "I thought that guy had a frost axe, why is he striking at initiative?" 'Oh, that was the other wolf guard with the exact same looking weapon but different stats....." I would be accepting if it was announced at the beginning of the game, "All icy painted axes are frost blades and all fiery painted axes are frost axes." Otherwise I am trying to keep track of your counts as army instead of enjoying the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254984-logan-always-striking-last-now/#findComment-3102392 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wispy Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Brother Ramses is right. Counting all your power axes as swords isn't a bid deal, but it becomes a problem when you're playing hit and miss when you're picking and choosing which axe is a sword and which isn't I don't like the new power axe rules, so I simply plan to never use them. All my power weapons in my army are using the sword rule. Simple as that. Convenient for everyone. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254984-logan-always-striking-last-now/#findComment-3102402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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