Captain Rolunde Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 /Begin Transmission/ Greetings Brothers! I suppose for my first post, I'll get started with the part of the Lore I am most interested in, by far. The Horus Heresy and the Legions during the period around that, seems as good a place start as anything else. So far I've read the first 4 HH books. (I don't plan to read them all but there are still a few more I do intended to read still.) Now it seems that there are probably very few surviving "Loyalists" of the Traitor Legions, they suffered extremely heavy losses during Isstvan III. But we do know some did survive (Loken, Varren, Qruze, Garro and his 70 or so Death Guard on the Eisenstein). And although at the end of Galaxy in Flames it looked pretty grim for the 200 and some odd Astartes on Isstvan III, as of the end of that book it seemed there was possibly some very slim chance some of them may have survived. At the end of Flight of the Eisenstein Garro indicates that he believes his Legion is about to be declared Traitors (which of course with a few exceptions they pretty much are or will be. It looks like on average it was maybe as much as 1/3rd of those Legions remained Loyal?) Qruze has gone back to wearing the livery of the Luna Wolves as a sort of way of showing his loyalty, as apparently from his point of view it was the Sons of Horus that are the Traitors and seem to feel this will help to distance himself from them. - Do any of the other books go into detail on what happens with regards to any potential "Loyalist Traitors"? Are any Loyalists by default just pretty much lumped into the cast of Traitor by default and can pretty much expect to be gunned down by either side unless by some miracle they can very quickly indicate somehow that they are Loyal? I know that it is hinted/indicated that the Grey Knights, Inquisition and possibly the Deathwatch will be formed in part out of a very few non-Traitors (is there a right phrase for "Loyalists from the Traitor Legions"?!) I'd suppose that would just be the handful of key people that Malcador sends Garro to find and maybe the loyal Death Guard survivors. - Any chance for surviving Loyal ECs, WEs other DGs and Luna Wolves (non-Traitor Sons of Horus) to come in out of the cold assuming any of them actually did survive? Well hopefully that is enough to get my pondering out there! ;-) - Also, Dorn sends Sigismund off to Isstvan to check out Garro's claims, has anything been written covering this part of the story? Thanks for any inpiut all, Cheers! ~Captain Rolunde~ /end Transmission/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Since the majority of the Legion turned, and what's more important having been led by their Primarchs, the entire Legion is declared traitor. Marines from those Legions who remained loyal have effectively left their former Legion to take a different side. I.e. all those Marines of the Sons of Horus who remained loyal and survived after the Istvaan III are not "the loyal Luna Wolves". They are now Marines not associated with any Legion. In some cases they were allowed to continue to serve, but since their former Legion and gene-lords are traitors, and since the Imperium decided to lock up the gene-stock of the traitor Legions, they would not produce any following generatgions of Marines. After about 500 years after the Heresy, the last Marines of the traitor Legions who had remained loyal will have died of natural causes, and there would be no more "loyal Luna Wolves" or "loyal Iron Warriors" from that point forward, Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/#findComment-3102545 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Garro's story continues via Audio Dramas which flesh out exactly what happens to him. As for what happens to Traitor legions/survivors of traitor legions... Battle for the Abyss (while not the best read in the HH) is entertaining enough and deals with a few... Outcast Dead also somewhat touches on the subject.... That's all I can think of off the top of my head. But it is my belief that after strenuous tests/psychic evaluations etc, surviving members of traitor legions that remained loyal were allowed to continue operating, whether being absorbed into a new legion, or the =][= or just working with the Imperium in general.. Who better to give intel than a member of the Legions they are waging war against. That being said, this is where the psychic evaluations become most crucial, you don't want false intel... Hope this helps... If only a little. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/#findComment-3102557 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Rolunde Posted July 1, 2012 Author Share Posted July 1, 2012 Great thanks guys, that was all very helpful. Based on reviews I've read of Outcast Dead I've been leaning towards avoiding that one, even though it seems to be about exactly what I am wonderng it also sounded like it was a bit.... "derp." I'll have to look into Battle for the Abyss though and see what I can learn from it. As to any impact it would have on gaming, with regards to this I'm pretty much interested in that period where they would still indeed be alive. I've got some ideas on a "altered outcome" for the Horus Heresy, but in general am mostly pretty content to let things stand as they are. I enjoy enough of the existing Chapters I don't feel the need to try and keep the "Loyal Few" around past the freshness date. I do like the idea that the early forces of the Inquisition would in part be made up of the Survivors though. Grey Knights aside, I like the idea of maybe some of them serving as "Black Shields" starting out the Deathwatch, or maybe forming my own version of that called "The Knights Errant." Or maybe just imagine that they were absorbed into some of the Imperial Fist's 2nd Founding such as the Black Templar's and Crimson Fists, seeing as they all seem to have found a bit of a potential Patron in Dorn. Thanks again guys, Cheers! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/#findComment-3102628 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Hah! Ignoring Outcast Dead for Battle for the Abyss is like ignoring Night of the Living Dead for Survival of the Dead or Zombi 2. Good luck with that Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/#findComment-3103337 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Hey, Zombi 2 is good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/#findComment-3103401 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Rolunde Posted July 1, 2012 Author Share Posted July 1, 2012 Hah! Ignoring Outcast Dead for Battle for the Abyss is like ignoring Night of the Living Dead for Survival of the Dead or Zombi 2. Good luck with that Doh! And I do see on Amazon that the reviews for Abyss have been pretty bad, for what those are worth... Maybe some knowledge is not worth the price, haha. Although it sounds like maybe neither of these books actually address the fate of any of those on Isstvan III, but do show what happened to some of those that were not in the area at the time. So I guess I can kind of get the idea from what I do know of Outcast Dead without actually reading it. That said, if it is actually good I might have to pick it up anyways. Thanks all! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/#findComment-3103569 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 There are some loyal members of the Traitor Legions mentioned in the story 'Iron Within' in 'Age of Darkness'. The story also briefly mentions the plans for them, at least for the further course of the Heresy, but does not give much more than a brief statement. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/#findComment-3103816 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Novels Horus Rising False Gods Galaxy in Flames The Flight of the Eisenstein Fulgrim Battle for the Abyss Age of Darkness. Rebirth (1k Sons), The Iron Within (Iron Warriors). Audio books. Garro: Oath of Moment Garro: Legion of One Garro: sword of Truth (Not out yet) All these stories have Loyalist as their focus. I also think that the 8 Founding Grey Knight Grandmasters are the tellers of most of these stories. There are many threads on this topic that we argues about the details. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/#findComment-3104309 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Rolunde Posted July 2, 2012 Author Share Posted July 2, 2012 Novels... Audio books... All these stories have Loyalist as their focus. I also think that the 8 Founding Grey Knight Grandmasters are the tellers of most of these stories. There are many threads on this topic that we argues about the details. /snip/ Great, looks like a nice check list for my reading there. Thanks! And dang it, I might end up having to get the GK Codex eventually as apparently it has some info on this as well? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/#findComment-3104562 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Yes, pg 6, The Founding "..... The other eight were Space Marines whose abilities were as peerless as their dedication to the Emperor. Some hailed from legions that had abandoned the Emperors light in favor of Horus' dark promises, but theses Battle-Brothers had never lost their loyalty and had fought the Heresy from within." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/#findComment-3104677 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirdfox Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Too bad the loyalist Terran-born Word Bearers were never able to make it back to Old Earth. Lorgar was pretty thorough. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/#findComment-3105078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Yeh i agree. There was a time when i thought there was one but i was Wrong. I place the blame on Erebus though, as i do for most of the bad things in the HH. I see no hint of a Loyalist Word Bearer, Alpha Legion, or Night Lord. Now that A DB has done the NL's and WB's i don't see any surviving/ existing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/#findComment-3105801 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unintentional Batman Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 I see no hint of a Loyalist Word Bearer, Alpha Legion, or Night Lord. Well, I never... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/#findComment-3105839 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sazabi24 Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Yeh i agree. There was a time when i thought there was one but i was Wrong. I place the blame on Erebus though, as i do for most of the bad things in the HH. I see no hint of a Loyalist Word Bearer, Alpha Legion, or Night Lord. Now that A DB has done the NL's and WB's i don't see any surviving/ existing. Word Bearers: TFH explicitly stated that the Word Bearers did an internal purge, meaning that there were loyalists. Not to mention that Deliverance lost showed that there were man Word Bearers who knew nothing of the Heresy and were most likely loyal Alpha Legion: uh... every single Alpha Legion story hints at some ambiguous "loyalty" Night Lords: There haven't been any heresy stories told from the Night Lords perspective, but chances are that there were loyalist terrans at the very least. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/#findComment-3105922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Word Bearers: TFH explicitly stated that the Word Bearers did an internal purge, meaning that there were loyalists. Not to mention that Deliverance lost showed that there were man Word Bearers who knew nothing of the Heresy and were most likely loyalAlpha Legion: uh... every single Alpha Legion story hints at some ambiguous "loyalty" Night Lords: There haven't been any heresy stories told from the Night Lords perspective, but chances are that there were loyalist terrans at the very least. What i meant to say way that there is no hint of any surviving Loyalists. The two purges done by the WB's were apparently thorough. Erebus was too smart to leave any loose ends. Something he tried to share with Horus but it fell on def ears. Collected Visions page 228. The final fate of Isstavan III. Horus talks to his commanders and has had enough of what is going on on the planet, He tells his commanders to withdraw and for all to prepare to use fleet artillery to bombard the city to oblivion. "Erebus the dark apostle, emissary from Lorgar of the Word Bearers spoke. ' My lord Horus, this is a commendable plan and one which i fully endorse. However, it is not guaranteed that an artillery barrage , even one of such magnitude, will completely deal with these foes. Some will inevitably survive. If you pardon my presumption at mentioning it Sire.' 'Thank you Erebus. I do not seek you endorsement but it is welcome. Of cores some will survive, but we will by then have quit this cesspool of a planet. They will be no further threat to us if they have no one to fight. They have no shuttle craft to leave the planet with. Isstavan III will be their tomb or prison, i care not which it is. We have bigger, more important tasks ahead of us. When all else is done, we can return here at leisure and dispose of any remaining issues.' We now know that Erebus was spot on. We have only to find out how many lived. The Alpha Legion may think they are loyal to something but i don't think the Sigilite would think them pure enough to trust with the founding of the Grey Knights. The Night Lords have a small window that a loyalist might slip through but i have seen not even the smallest hint. They seem to have had too much love for their Primarch. Even Terrans Sevatar like were pure evil. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/#findComment-3106082 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schultzhoffen Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 'Battle for the Abyss' is not worth the effort -one of the worst HH books. 'Thousand Sons', 'Prospero Burns', 'The Outcast Dead', 'First Heretic' and 'Know no Fear' should also be added to your list. "Know No Fear" is awesome. Get it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/#findComment-3106192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Rolunde Posted July 2, 2012 Author Share Posted July 2, 2012 Cool, I've got my hands on First Heretic, it's next up for reading. I've been planing to get both A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns. (Love both the Sons and the Wolves.) And Know No Fear, I read the preview pages for it and thought it looked pretty great. I'm looking forward to the rest of that story and I haven't even read it yet! :) - I'll admit I've suffered some of the "I'm supposed to like them so I don't" animosity that seems to go around on the Ultras; but this version of them has really turned it around for me. I have some respect for the Eastern Empire Guilliman was building up. Will do on putting Outcast Dead back on my "must" list. Eventually I guess I'll have to step up and buy the Audio's of Garro. Maybe if I wait long enough their will be a "3 pack" when Garro: Sword of Truth is done, heh. Ah, Alpha Legion, I'd like to think their road to Hel has been paved with good intentions; or something like that. I've seen some good conspiracies around here about them. Not a fan of the "A wizard!/super sneaky Alpha's did it" all the time GW seems to want to spin, but the more subtle stuff is pretty interesting. Weren't the Night Lords pretty much made up of Scum and Villainy? Although i suppose there would have been some Terrans at the start of each Legion, eh? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/#findComment-3106430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Weren't the Night Lords pretty much made up of Scum and Villainy? Although i suppose there would have been some Terrains at the start of each Legion, eh? Yup. As one old wizard famously said about Nostramo, "you will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villany": http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/e/e5/OutriderDepartingMosEisley-ANH.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/#findComment-3106455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Hehe Legs, Zombi 2 was terribad but in a good way, like a Troma film, but it is one you can probably live without seeing. I'd still recommend it as a Youtube watch or something, in the same way I'd recommend Battle for the Abyss as being a library borrow instead of a book purchase. Outcast Dead is a filler novel but one of the best of the non-major Heresy 'arc' novels. It starts wretchedly slow but sometime in the halfway mark you are on a ride and it is good. And the Emperor is quite lovely and meets my every expectation of being the paragon of Humanity :D You will likely enjoy all the novels you have outlined. I did! Curze eliminated that hive of scum and villainy by scaring the villains so bad after pulping most of them that it was just a dark and quiet place to live. I'd imagine it would be something like if Vader or Maul walked into the cantina instead of good ol' Ben "Two-Hands" Kenobi. If the nice old Jedi cows them what would those two monsters do? It was only until Curze was on Crusade doing Emperor only knows what to who for many many moons that Nostramo became a den of evil, and its recruits were... compromised. Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote some WONDERFUL novels on that sort of thing. Tortured souls doing the work that is called of them while being cursed as monsters sidemouthed by the men giving the orders. As far as the Terran thing, blood calls blood and the lure of the Emperor and his personality cult to everyone is pretty much how any Marine would view their Primarch in my opinion no matter where they are from. It seems the Terran Marines who held on to pre-Imperial/Unity ideals and beliefs were more apt to resist the falls of their respective Primarchs. *le sigh* Another edition to go try and puzzle out! ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/#findComment-3106545 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 'Battle for the Abyss' is not worth the effort -one of the worst HH books. 'Thousand Sons', 'Prospero Burns', 'The Outcast Dead', 'First Heretic' and 'Know no Fear' should also be added to your list. "Know No Fear" is awesome. Get it. BotA may be "bad" but it dose HEAVILY involve Loyalist from the traitor Legions. The other books you talk about do not touch at all on this topic. They might all be good, but shed zero light on what happened to those loyal to the Emperor who had the misfortune to be in a legion who turned heir backs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/#findComment-3107491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 The Night Lords have a small window that a loyalist might slip through but i have seen not even the smallest hint. They seem to have had too much love for their Primarch. Even Terrans Sevatar like were pure evil. Sevatar is Nostraman. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/#findComment-3107498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Curze eliminated that hive of scum and villainy by scaring the villains so bad after pulping most of them that it was just a dark and quiet place to live. I'd imagine it would be something like if Vader or Maul walked into the cantina instead of good ol' Ben "Two-Hands" Kenobi. If the nice old Jedi cows them what would those two monsters do? It was only until Curze was on Crusade doing Emperor only knows what to who for many many moons that Nostramo became a den of evil, and its recruits were... compromised. Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote some WONDERFUL novels on that sort of thing. Tortured souls doing the work that is called of them while being cursed as monsters sidemouthed by the men giving the orders. For the record, 'The Prince of Crows' in Shadows of Treachery has a significant chunk about Nostramo in that context, with Curze pacifying it. People have been waiting so long, I thought it was best to show it at last, rather than leaving them hanging even longer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/#findComment-3107508 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 The Night Lords have a small window that a loyalist might slip through but i have seen not even the smallest hint. They seem to have had too much love for their Primarch. Even Terrans Sevatar like were pure evil. Sevatar is Nostraman. Damm i hate being wrong. /gerr/ Ok then, can anyone plz tell me who was the Terran, Night Lord, Captain, who took over leadership of the legion after the Night Haunter died? The Legion refused to Follow him and broke up into warbands? Were his hands painted red?.... Maybe the guy who took over for Sevatar? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/#findComment-3107801 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Curze eliminated that hive of scum and villainy by scaring the villains so bad after pulping most of them that it was just a dark and quiet place to live. I'd imagine it would be something like if Vader or Maul walked into the cantina instead of good ol' Ben "Two-Hands" Kenobi. If the nice old Jedi cows them what would those two monsters do? It was only until Curze was on Crusade doing Emperor only knows what to who for many many moons that Nostramo became a den of evil, and its recruits were... compromised. Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote some WONDERFUL novels on that sort of thing. Tortured souls doing the work that is called of them while being cursed as monsters sidemouthed by the men giving the orders. For the record, 'The Prince of Crows' in Shadows of Treachery has a significant chunk about Nostramo in that context, with Curze pacifying it. People have been waiting so long, I thought it was best to show it at last, rather than leaving them hanging even longer. We love you ADB :P edit: Walkier: Are you talking about Zso Sahaal? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/#findComment-3108110 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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