Were "the Betrayed/Survivors" declaired Traitors?

[Hyaenidae]

*ka-snip*

 

Oy vey. Didn't mean to tick you off man, I don't even care for Sahaal that much, at least at the level that you seem to feel I do. Nor am I trying to act like some "knee-jerk idiot", "fanboy", or what the hell ever. Just suprised that he will only be seen in tidbits from here on, that's all. It's cool that you have found little places to slip him into the story line, and I do appreciate it, just suprised on his reduced role (considering how high Spurrier raised him) during the Heresy, is all.

 

Didn't mean to offend, dude. Guess I'm just an old man who still loves his old BL books. The fact that you care for the book at all is enough for me.

[A D-B]

*ka-snip*

 

Oy vey. Didn't mean to tick you off man, I don't even care for Sahaal that much, at least at the level that you seem to feel I do. Nor am I trying to act like some "knee-jerk idiot", "fanboy", or what the hell ever. Just suprised that he will only be seen in tidbits from here on, that's all. It's cool that you have found little places to slip him into the story line, and I do appreciate it, just suprised on his reduced role (considering how high Spurrier raised him) during the Heresy, is all.

 

Didn't mean to offend, dude. Guess I'm just an old man who still loves his old BL books. The fact that you care for the book at all is enough for me.

 

Oh, man.

 

Not you, dude. Not even this thread. Hell, not even this site.

 

True story.

[Hyaenidae]

Alright, cool.

 

On a side note, that 'Sevetar & Sahaal' short you're talking about would be gnarly as hell. I'd buy it.

[Inquisitor Engel]

On a side note, that 'Sevetar & Sahaal' short you're talking about would be gnarly as hell. I'd buy it.

 

I would buy like... Hundreds of them.

 

Bulwyf - I asked him pretty much the same question, so it may have gotten lost. :) If you're still searching: http://www.facebook.com/aarondembskibowden...394470093948221

 

LotN was the book that HOOKED me into the Night Lords, hard. I liked Sahaal. I was seduced by the story he told and the idea that the Emperor wasn't quite the beacon of light we were all led to believe. But the years went by and Talos arrived, along with Cyrion, who I think epitomizes what the Night Lords really "are" and "want" rather well.

 

Clinging to Sahaal's version of events is silly because we already have the tragic and betrayed Legion we always have, the Thousand Sons. We don't need another. The Emperor, despite only being seen a couple of times (and only really in full form in "The Last Heretic"), is someone I'm not sure I want leading humanity but based on his decisions, he's the lesser of two evils... Or the greater, if you believe the Cabal.

 

The reasons LotN was so compelling have been filled in by other stories, better stories, with better characters. Sahaal is a nice footnote and someone who should be included as nods to other background, but he doesn't need to be another Primarch-following puppy (which is what he'd be if we take his beliefs at face value) as we already have a couple of those, too.

 

Maybe my view of discarding background (I try not to call it fluff, Andy Hoare was most upset when I'm used to refer to it as such, people work very hard on it) is tilted by having written some of it and been involved in its development at one point (Tau Empire Codex and a teensy bit of Cityfight), but ADB's point that he can't be held to prior background that's since been deemed largely irrelevant. If we didn't move on from time to time, we'd still have Space Marime scouts eating Chaplain excrement and Space Dwarfs running around in Sons of Anarchy gear, just for hoots.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I've gotten reading between the lines is this:

 

The Night Lords followed Horus because they couldn't rightly follow Dorn as Warmaster after Horus' betrayal. Horus gave them opportunity to both test their mettle against other worthy combatants, and to fight easy raids and conduct terror campaigns just because, something the Emperor would never have allowed. It's the genocidal version of Daddy and Mummy had a fight, and Daddy's new house has an Xbox and a bigger TV, basically. Sahaal's version is sweet and romantic and all, but when you look at who the Night Lords are, who Curze is, it doesn't gel very well does it?

 

ADB's gone through a lot of trouble making Sahaal fit with the current background and has done a fine job. I think we all agree he's a capable man, so let's just let him have it? :D

[Hyaenidae]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I have no desire for Sahaal's view of the world to carry on, and I for one am glad the NL fluff has....matured, thanks to A D-B. He was a fun character though, and a big one for quite a while, thus my initial suprise. A D-B has quite completley explained why he did what he did, and I understand and am quite content with his response.

 

 

As for the in between the lines part, I felt like even if Horus had resisted and had cast Chaos out, the NL's would have still gone rogue. They were already renegades prior to the Heresy, after Curze had beat Dorn to a pulp then escaped confinement, followed by shattering their own homeworld. My opinion is that (using your example) it didn't matter whose house was bigger, as long as they got to mess that house up, terrorize the neighbor kids, and beat you up for the simple pleasure of it. Had the Heresy not happened, I'm guessing the VIII Legion would have become the third of the 'Unknown Primarchs'.

[Legatus]

Just to lend some weight to what A D-B has been saying: I am one of the people who did not really enjoy either 'Lord of the Night' or Sahaal as a Character. And I play Night Lords since 2nd Edition. They have consistently been my second favourite among my different armies I play, and I liked their Index Astartes article a lot. And I guess it was perhaps because of my existing familiarity with them that 'Lord of the Night' rubbed me the wrong way. Part of why I did not really enjoy it were the constant descriptions of a fully armoured Chaos Marine with raptor jump pack and lightning claws climbing out of air ducts in complete silence to sneak kill unsuspecting victims. Did not buy that for a second. The other part was Sahaal's completely bogus explanation of what had happened to the Legion, how the Emperor had betrayed them and gladly employ them as a terror weapon while secretly already plotting their demise long before the heresy. No, sorry, I knew the background, and knew that that was not the case at all. But what made it even worse than simply reading a character spouting such deluded drivel was that so many people latched onto his descriptions and took that as fact. Despite another Character, who was more "in the know" than Sahaal pointing out his errors at the end of the book. But no, too many people were already on Sahaal's side at that point.

So, I did not really enjoy the book as a pure action novel, because of the poor descriptions of raptor sneak kills, and neither was it of any value whatsoever for me as a fan of the Night Lords. It didn't tell us more about their background. It only confused many with a completely false conspiracy theory. So, really, if Sahaal never gets mentioned in any future GW publication at all, that would not be for the worst.

[Inquisitor Engel]

.... raptor sneak kills...

 

I smell an oxymoron! :lol:

 

 

 

I'm distinguishing between ambushes (which the Bleeding Eyes are quite good at) and actually sneaking around, which is... well, power armour HUMS :cuss.

[mc warhammer]

I find it a little worrisome that you let fans get so under your skin, ADB. It's sounding a little like analysis paralysis in some ways. Not only are fans always going to misinterpret the way you write "their precious Sahaal" but they're also going to misinterpret the way you write "their previous Talos" too. And he's "yours". Same way they misinterpreted how you wrote the Lion, Lorgar and Night Haunter. You can't make everyone approve, so why even take it into account? You'll go battier than Kurze.

 

The small amount of attention you've given the character has actually put him in a pretty interesting position within his legion ( he is a rarity amongst his brothers, but his delusion has singled him out as significant in a favourable manner to his primarch rather than a detriment). He is a man of influence and power who is completely blind to his brothers, his primarch and himself.

 

I for one would love to see you write Sahaal in whatever capacity you saw fit (if you had the desire) not to excite some preconceived love of the character that I might possess, but simply because I think you'd do something interesting and damned well worth reading. Isn't that the point?

[Aqui]

power armour HUMS :cuss.

 

It will if one doesn't clean it!

 

Damn those Plague Marines! :devil:

 

Going back to the original subject, I'd like to see what the fate of those still Loyal to the Emperor, even if it's not laid out in implicit detail (if anything, I'd prefer more hints than cold hard facts to be honest - retains the mystery and all that)

[Gree]

Part of why I did not really enjoy it were the constant descriptions of a fully armoured Chaos Marine with raptor jump pack and lightning claws climbing out of air ducts in complete silence to sneak kill unsuspecting victims. Did not buy that for a second.

 

Dude, Raven Guard do that all the time.

[Legatus]

No ways.

[Gree]

No ways.

 

They do in in Chapter's Due, a full squad of power armored Raven Guard sneaking up on Telion. The Deathwatch RPG explains the Raven Guard use a special silenced system of power armor. The various Raven Guard stories published by George Mann have them also pulling of all sorts of stealthy feats and sneaking about in power armor IIRC.

[Bulwyf]

Just to lend some weight to what A D-B has been saying: I am one of the people who did not really enjoy either 'Lord of the Night' or Sahaal as a Character. And I play Night Lords since 2nd Edition. They have consistently been my second favourite among my different armies I play, and I liked their Index Astartes article a lot. And I guess it was perhaps because of my existing familiarity with them that 'Lord of the Night' rubbed me the wrong way. Part of why I did not really enjoy it were the constant descriptions of a fully armoured Chaos Marine with raptor jump pack and lightning claws climbing out of air ducts in complete silence to sneak kill unsuspecting victims. Did not buy that for a second. The other part was Sahaal's completely bogus explanation of what had happened to the Legion, how the Emperor had betrayed them and gladly employ them as a terror weapon while secretly already plotting their demise long before the heresy. No, sorry, I knew the background, and knew that that was not the case at all. But what made it even worse than simply reading a character spouting such deluded drivel was that so many people latched onto his descriptions and took that as fact. Despite another Character, who was more "in the know" than Sahaal pointing out his errors at the end of the book. But no, too many people were already on Sahaal's side at that point.

So, I did not really enjoy the book as a pure action novel, because of the poor descriptions of raptor sneak kills, and neither was it of any value whatsoever for me as a fan of the Night Lords. It didn't tell us more about their background. It only confused many with a completely false conspiracy theory. So, really, if Sahaal never gets mentioned in any future GW publication at all, that would not be for the worst.

 

 

Just to note some errors in here: there is nothing wrong with sneak kills in power armor. I don't know if you've not read Raven Guard stories but they sneak up on people quite often thanks to the power armor they wear. I find it completely believable that Sahaal would have had his armor modified to run silent. It is not like aural dampeners are something impossible to create in 40k or they aren't already in use with other Legions like the Raven Guard.

 

As for Sahaal's explanation I still think it has merit. I again have to point out how oblivious some of you are coming across that a person as demented and genocidal as the Emperor was would be "above" using one of his Legions as a terror weapon. The same person that killed trillions of aliens for the crime of being, well, xenos is somehow a good person? The same person that wiped out billions of people in the Great Crusade because they didn't want to join him empire? The same person that wiped out billions for being religious or having beliefs that put them at odds with the Imperium? Seriously? You think someone like THAT would be "above" using a Legion as Brownshirts in ceramite and then when stories start to emerge that his mad dogs slipped the leash he would decide to cut his losses? Wow. I've heard of character worship before in fan service but this takes the cake.

 

I also have to point out that up to the point LotN was released the only traitor Legion that anything remotely like a valid reason to go traitor were the Thousand Sons because their effort to warn the Emperor about Horus not only was ignored but got their homeworld decimated by the Space Wolves. Having a genocidal maniac in the Emperor turn on his own terror weapon because it got out of control is not only plausible but IMO the only logical outcome of what we know from the Heresy and the NL involvement in it. They simply went too far and the Emperor wanted them contained. If there was NO Heresy is there any doubt in anyone's mind that the Emperor would have sent the Space Wolves after Curze to stop him from going over the top?

[Bulwyf]

On a side note, that 'Sevetar & Sahaal' short you're talking about would be gnarly as hell. I'd buy it.

 

I would buy like... Hundreds of them.

 

Bulwyf - I asked him pretty much the same question, so it may have gotten lost. :P If you're still searching: http://www.facebook.com/aarondembskibowden...394470093948221

 

 

 

Engel, thank you for the response. I'm not exactly sure why ADB is ignoring my questions on both FB and on here but at least I have some answer. It sounds like the First Company didn't have all the Terminators in the Legion. I still would like to know what happened to the Legion techmarines and apothecaries as it stands now in today's fractured Legion but I guess we as fans are free to do whatever we want with in terms of background for our armies or short stories.

[A D-B]

Engel, thank you for the response. I'm not exactly sure why ADB is ignoring my questions on both FB and on here but at least I have some answer. It sounds like the First Company didn't have all the Terminators in the Legion. I still would like to know what happened to the Legion techmarines and apothecaries as it stands now in today's fractured Legion but I guess we as fans are free to do whatever we want with in terms of background for our armies or short stories.

 

It's not ignoring you, you adorable crazy person. You last asked me something 2 days ago. I have a novel deadline and a 4 month-old son and almost no free time, so when it comes to replying to stuff, I tend to go for the topics that interest me lots, aren't answered elsewhere, or aren't something that I've just had to deal with recently in another thread (because repeating yourself is no fun). And this is either guessable or answered elsewhere. We know what happens to Techmarines and Apothecaries, in the sense that "No one really knows" and that's the official answer from all the codices. So you get to choose. All we know is that some Techmarines seem to have become Obliterators, and from a meta-standpoint, they're out of the game for balance issues, to make Chaos different from the loyalists.

 

I'd guess others became Chaos Lords, Aspiring Champions, Daemon Princes, regular warriors, and everything else imaginable, because the reality isn't limited to the entries in a codex - and Chaos is even less limited to that than anyone else. There'll be many commanders and Marines who were once Apothecaries (now Fleshsmiths or Paincrafters or Surgeon-Princes or whatever) and there'll be many commanders who were once Techmarines with extensive servo-jazz calling themselves Ironmasters or Warpsmiths or or Techweavers or Forgelords.

 

Now add all the new Apothecaries and Techmarines who've come along in the last infinite timespan that the war has been taking place in the Eye, who were trained by others but never formally Techmarines or Apthecaries, and you'll have literally any possibility imaginable. That's Chaos Marines at work.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Also, they wake up every morning and kill babies.

[Inquisitor Engel]

(now Fleshsmiths or Paincrafters or Surgeon-Princes or whatever) and there'll be many commanders who were once Techmarines with extensive servo-jazz calling themselves Ironmasters or Warpsmiths or or Techweavers or Forgelords.

 

I love that you whipped some of those titles up off the top of your head. It shows why you're one of the best.

 

I apologize for all the grief. :huh:

[Legatus]

Just to note some errors in here: there is nothing wrong with sneak kills in power armor.

There is a diffeence between a tactical Marine moving silently through an urban environment or hinterland and a friggin raptor with jump pack and lightning claws climbing out of an air duct.

 

 

As for Sahaal's explanation I still think it has merit.

No, it doesn't. We know pretty well under what circumstances the Night Lords turned. Since 2nd Edition. Plus, I may be too blinded by several editions of Codex and Rulebook descriptions of the Great Crusade, where the goal was to liberate human worlds from Chaos and alien enslavement. I have not read much of the Horus Heresy series, where the Emperor apparently has been turned into much more of a genocidal maniac. Since you seem to enjoy the Horus Heresy descriptions about stealthy Space Marines and the evil Emperor, I guess we can safely say that your Emperor is not the same as my Emperor. That's GW's "choose your own truth" for you.

[Bulwyf]

Engel, thank you for the response. I'm not exactly sure why ADB is ignoring my questions on both FB and on here but at least I have some answer. It sounds like the First Company didn't have all the Terminators in the Legion. I still would like to know what happened to the Legion techmarines and apothecaries as it stands now in today's fractured Legion but I guess we as fans are free to do whatever we want with in terms of background for our armies or short stories.

 

It's not ignoring you, you adorable crazy person. You last asked me something 2 days ago. I have a novel deadline and a 4 month-old son and almost no free time, so when it comes to replying to stuff, I tend to go for the topics that interest me lots, aren't answered elsewhere, or aren't something that I've just had to deal with recently in another thread (because repeating yourself is no fun). And this is either guessable or answered elsewhere. We know what happens to Techmarines and Apothecaries, in the sense that "No one really knows" and that's the official answer from all the codices. So you get to choose. All we know is that some Techmarines seem to have become Obliterators, and from a meta-standpoint, they're out of the game for balance issues, to make Chaos different from the loyalists.

 

I'd guess others became Chaos Lords, Aspiring Champions, Daemon Princes, regular warriors, and everything else imaginable, because the reality isn't limited to the entries in a codex - and Chaos is even less limited to that than anyone else. There'll be many commanders and Marines who were once Apothecaries (now Fleshsmiths or Paincrafters or Surgeon-Princes or whatever) and there'll be many commanders who were once Techmarines with extensive servo-jazz calling themselves Ironmasters or Warpsmiths or or Techweavers or Forgelords.

 

Now add all the new Apothecaries and Techmarines who've come along in the last infinite timespan that the war has been taking place in the Eye, who were trained by others but never formally Techmarines or Apthecaries, and you'll have literally any possibility imaginable. That's Chaos Marines at work.

 

Actually the first time I asked you on FB was back on July 5th but it is no bother. I do thank you for answering the question. To have someone that is juggling deadlines, a wifey and a babe to take the time to answer a fan on a board is richly appreciated and it speaks well of you to do so. I realize that in terms of tabletop you need some different units just for the sake of variety which is why Chaos has Oblits instead of techmarines but that certainly does not mean that all techmarines became Oblits. I also find it odd that we don't see any rules for Chaos apothecaries but fluff wise we can do what we want with them.

[Gree]

Just to note some errors in here: there is nothing wrong with sneak kills in power armor.

There is a diffeence between a tactical Marine moving silently through an urban environment or hinterland and a friggin raptor with jump pack and lightning claws climbing out of an air duct.

 

Yet it is the same power armor is it not? The Raven Guard appearantly manage to do both quite well enough thank you.

[Bulwyf]

Just to note some errors in here: there is nothing wrong with sneak kills in power armor.

There is a diffeence between a tactical Marine moving silently through an urban environment or hinterland and a friggin raptor with jump pack and lightning claws climbing out of an air duct.

 

 

As for Sahaal's explanation I still think it has merit.

No, it doesn't. We know pretty well under what circumstances the Night Lords turned. Since 2nd Edition. Plus, I may be too blinded by several editions of Codex and Rulebook descriptions of the Great Crusade, where the goal was to liberate human worlds from Chaos and alien enslavement. I have not read much of the Horus Heresy series, where the Emperor apparently has been turned into much more of a genocidal maniac. Since you seem to enjoy the Horus Heresy descriptions about stealthy Space Marines and the evil Emperor, I guess we can safely say that your Emperor is not the same as my Emperor. That's GW's "choose your own truth" for you.

 

Why would there be a difference? Have you ever hunted or been camping in deep forests or waste land area? I have and it can be incredibly quiet at times. You can literally hear your heart beating in your ears and can hear your clothing moving against itself because of the lack of surrounding sound. If a Raven Guard can sneak up on a trained soldier or another Space Marine in those kind of conditions because their modified armor can remove any sound from escaping how different is that from someone dropping out of an air duct?

 

Secondly, I've been a fan of 40k since Rogue Trader days. The Emperor has not been suddenly portrayed as a genocidal monster in the HH novels. He has *always* been depicted that way. He killed millions to unify Terra then he killed trillions of humans in the Great Crusade and trillions more aliens for no other reason than they were aliens. Yes, in some cases as you stated there were world that were enslaved by Chaos demons or Chaos tainted regimes or hostile alien cultures but in more cases they simply wiped out human resistance to being conquered or killed friendly aliens just to remove them. This is also not to mention his killing off billions because he decided no one should have religion.

 

So I have to dispute your assertion that GW is changing the lore to such a degree that gamers have two valid alternative views of the Emperor (at least) to choose from.

[A D-B]

Actually the first time I asked you on FB was back on July 5th but it is no bother.

 

I know that:

 

You last asked me something 2 days ago.

 

Patience, grasshopper.

[Bulwyf]

Actually the first time I asked you on FB was back on July 5th but it is no bother.

 

I know that:

 

You last asked me something 2 days ago.

 

Patience, grasshopper.

 

Could you do us a favor and make one incorrect statement so that I feel just partially better? :ermm:

[Legatus]

Yet it is the same power armor is it not? The Raven Guard appearantly manage to do both quite well enough thank you.

If a Raven Guard can sneak up on a trained soldier or another Space Marine in those kind of conditions because their modified armor can remove any sound from escaping how different is that from someone dropping out of an air duct?

With a jump pack strapped to his back and lightning claws? For reals? This is a discussion?

 

 

Secondly, I've been a fan of 40k since Rogue Trader days. The Emperor has not been suddenly portrayed as a genocidal monster in the HH novels. He has *always* been depicted that way. He killed millions to unify Terra

Which had been ruled by different warlords and had been a mad max wasteland at that time. That kind of puts his unification of Terra in a different perspective.

 

 

then he killed trillions of humans in the Great Crusade and trillions more aliens for no other reason than they were aliens.

In 2nd Edition the stated goal of the Great Crusade was to reunite the worlds of mankind, and many of them had to be liberated from the clutches of Chaos or aliens. (see for example the description in the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 7). It does not mention any conflicts against otherwise peaceful aliens for the sheer reason of them being aliens. The 1st Edition 'realms of Chaos - The Lost and the Damned' describes it in much the same way on page 178. But I am not that familiar with 1st Edition, so if there are descriptions of conflicts with peaceful aliens then I might just not be aware of them.

"During the Great Crusade massive armies of Space Marines spread out from Earth. Their task was to seek out and liberate human worlds throughout the galaxy, uniting all of humanity in a single mighty Imperium. The Great Crusade lasted for about two hundred years and saw some of the bloodiest fighting known up to those times. The worlds rediscovered by the Emperor's armies had been cut off from Earth for millennia. Some had degenerated to barbarity. Others had developed into sprawling hive worlds. Many were under the domination of aliens or had become corrupted by the evil of Chaos. All these worlds were gradually reconquered and brought back within the Imperium."

(2st Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 7)

 

This is also not to mention his killing off billions because he decided no one should have religion.

That is definitely an invention of the Horus Heresy series, or at least the Collected Visions books.

 

 

The Emperor has not been suddenly portrayed as a genocidal monster in the HH novels. He has *always* been depicted that way.

Here are some excerpts from 'The Lost and the Damned':

"For thirty eight thousand years the New Man wandered over the Earth and through human history. At first he merely observed the world about him, but soon he began to help where he could, using his ancient wisdom to spread efficient government, crop management, animal husbandry, technology, and peace.

(...)

As the human race prospered the warp became increasingly disturbed so that its flow could no longer sustain the planet as it once had. The New Man was aware of how the extreme sides of human character were feeding the Chaos Powers. Despite his best efforts to promote peace and harmony, the instinctive values of martial honour, ambition, defiance, and self-satisfaction could never be eradicated."

(1st Edition 'Realms of Chaos - The Lost and the Damned', p. 175)

"The birth pangs of Slaanesh made it all the more necessary that humanity progress as quickly as possible. Warp travel became increasingly difficult as the horror-torn dreams of Slaanesh became more intense. (...)

As a result, space travel became almost impossible, and many worlds were isolated for long periods of time. Human society broke apart and Earth was cut off from the rest of the galaxy altogether. This was the Age of Strife in human history - an age of anarchy and madness which even the New Man was powerless to prevent. The Age of Strife was only ended with the birth of Slaanesh (...)

(...)

On Earth the well ordered civilisations of the past were gone. Government had degenerated into global anarchy. From that anarchy the Emperor emerged - a saviour in the time of ultimate crisis. He led armies from the Atlantic to Greenland, from the deserts of Amazonia to the mountains of Africa, his followers evergrowing in number and strength. His message was clear and vital: unite humanity and bring order to the galaxy."

(1st Edition 'Realms of Chaos - The Lost and the Damned', p. 177)

"By the time that the warp storms were ended, the Space Marines and other Imperial forces were ready to begin their reconquest of the galaxy. The forces of Chaos were already strong, and many human worlds had been taken over by Chaos Cultists or other aliens. It was a long hard struggle, but with every victory the Imperium grew stronger as new warriors joined the Great Crusade."

(1st Edition 'Realms of Chaos - The Lost and teh Damned', p. 178)

 

So, as far as I can tell the Emperor was unambiguously a benevolent figure during 1st and 2nd Edition.

[Gree]

With a jump pack strapped to his back and lightning claws? For reals? This is a discussion?

 

If the Raven Guard can do it then I see no reason why a Night Lord can't do it. The Raven Guard have sneaked up on Telion of all people. Even with a jump pack and retractable lightning claws sneaking up on mere mortals should be far easier.

 

How? You might ask? Well Sahaal is just that good.