Apothecary Vaddon Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 With a jump pack strapped to his back and lightning claws? For reals? This is a discussion? If the Raven Guard can do it then I see no reason why a Night Lord can't do it. The Raven Guard have sneaked up on Telion of all people. Even with a jump pack and retractable lightning claws sneaking up on mere mortals should be far easier. How? You might ask? Well Sahaal is just that good. No. http://bbsimg.ngfiles.com/1/9643000/ngbbs44c346bf3222d.jpg =/= http://images.wikia.com/warhammer40k/images/4/41/Corax.jpg Baaahahaha I had to. Okay, never mind me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3121799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 If the Raven Guard can do it then I see no reason why a Night Lord can't do it. I didn't know the Raven Guard were crawling through air ducts. With jump packs and lightning claws. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3121962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 If the Raven Guard can do it then I see no reason why a Night Lord can't do it. I didn't know the Raven Guard were crawling through air ducts. With jump packs and lightning claws. If they did, no one would say it was un fluffy. As good as the Raven Guard were at stealth, they did not have a monopoly on ninjas. If Sigismund and the Flesh Tearer got their Props in the training cages of the World Eaters As was shown in Butchers Nail., the Night Lords could have a supper sneaky squad of infiltrators, that was as good or better then the Raven Guard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3122030 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 If the Raven Guard can do it then I see no reason why a Night Lord can't do it. I didn't know the Raven Guard were crawling through air ducts. With jump packs and lightning claws. They did not do that exactly, but they have pulled off similar feats. Again, they sneaked up on Telion without Telion noticing. That has to be much harder than sneaking up on mere mortals, jumps packs or not. And I'm not sure why you think lightning claws are going to be an issue when they are retractable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3122042 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 And I'm not sure why you think lightning claws are going to be an issue when they are retractable. Perhaps because retracted lightning claws are essentially power fists? If you dont think it's weird that a raptor with a jump pack and "power fists" can climb silently out of an air duct, here is what I want you to do: Put on a full tracking back pack and the thickest gloves you can find. Put your hands through thick muffs so that only your fingers poke out the other end. Now cover each body part, including the gloves and the back pack with some kind of metal or plastic plating. Now climb through a horizontal shaft big enough to allow you and the back pack to pass through. Climb in and out of the shaft without making any sound. Then come back and tell me how the back pack, thick gloves and platings covering every bidy part did not prevent you from doing that without making any noise. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3122058 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Perhaps because retracted lightning claws are essentially power fists? Not nessecarily, a variety of different marks probably exist. I believe the loyalist versions are bulkier than some of the chaos ones. Sahaal appearantly has no problem handeling objects. [if you dont think it's weird that a raptor with a jump pack and "power fists" can climb silently out of an air duct, here is what I want you to do: Put on a full tracking back pack and the thickest gloves you can find. Put your hands through thick muffs so that only your fingers poke out the other end. Now cover each body part, including the gloves and the back pack with some kind of metal or plastic plating. Now climb through a horizontal shaft big enough to allow you and the back pack to pass through. Climb in and out of the shaft without making any sound. Then come back and tell me how the back pack, thick gloves and platings covering every bidy part did not prevent you from doing that without making any noise. How about you ask an Army Ranger or a veteran Black Ops soldier to do that instead? And I propose having them train in that outfit for literal centuries. Because I don't think asking an untrained civilian to do that is a fair comparison at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3122062 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 It was more of a rethorical task. But I would be interested to hear a trained army veteran's opinion on the possibility of moving silently with that kind of outfit. He would laugh, is my guess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3122067 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 It was more of a rethorical task. But I would be interested to hear a trained army veteran's opinion on the possibility of moving silently with that kind of outfit. He would laugh, is my guess. How about you ask that trained army veteran to put on that outfit and have him try to sneak up on another highly-trained army veteran commando? Because that's basically what the Raven Guard did. They snuck up on Telion. But really, using normal humans for comparison is a bad idea Legatus. The Astartes here have been doing this for centuries and have experiance and skill that should be beyond any normal human. The fact that they can sneak up on people like that speaks of to just how good they are at doing that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3122068 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ju'kosian Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 I find it ironcly to discuss the something that just cannot be (raptor in air duct..blabla) when it's a Fictional universe... If gw/black library writes it, then it's possible.. Another explanation could be that it's a Matt ward Raptor... now that would be a guy who could just do everything without making a sound.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3122070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 How about you ask that trained army veteran to put on that outfit and have him try to sneak up on another highly-trained army veteran commando? Because that's basically what the Raven Guard did. They snuck up on Telion. Once there is no climbing out of tight spaces involved, things become much less complicated. You know, less contact with different armoured body parts to metallic survaces, no need to use bulky gloves to grab onto things to move forward. Only moving one foot in front of the other. I find it ironcly to discuss the something that just cannot be (raptor in air duct..blabla) when it's a Fictional universe...If gw/black library writes it, then it's possible.. Suspension of disbelief, man. A sci-fi universe where near impenetrable Tactical Dreadnought Armour exists? Sure, no problem. A story where a Marine in such a Tactical Dreadnought Armour squeezes through a 30" gap of a broken blast door? No way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3122071 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Once there is no climbing out of tight spaces involved, things become much less complicated. You know, less contact with different armoured body parts to metallic survaces, no need to use bulky gloves to grab onto things to move forward. Only moving one foot in front of the other. But once there's no sneaking up on people with superhuman senses, things become much less complicated, you know, less chance for superhuman hearing or smell to detect someone moving or a master scout noting if someone is sneaking up on him rather than a bunch of mere mortals. You know, the difference between sneaking up on Telion and say, a bunch of normal humans. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3122077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 As a side note (beisdes those comparisons being of little use; apples and oranges and all that): answering complains about how Space Marines sneaking around was handled poorly in a Black Library novels with further examples of Space Marines sneaking around being hanlded poorly in other Black Library novels is not much help at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3122092 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 As a side note (beisdes those comparisons being of little use; apples and oranges and all that): answering complains about how Space Marines sneaking around was handled poorly in a Black Library novels with further examples of Space Marines sneaking around being hanlded poorly in other Black Library novels is not much help at all. That is only if you think it's being handled poorly, rather than accepting it as evidence of sheer skill, as was the authorial intent. Perhaps instead of you considering it as poor handeling of Space Marines sneaking around, perhaps you might consider it as evidence that said Space Marines are just that good? And no, I say my comparisons are just fine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3122093 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ju'kosian Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 How about you ask that trained army veteran to put on that outfit and have him try to sneak up on another highly-trained army veteran commando? Because that's basically what the Raven Guard did. They snuck up on Telion. Once there is no climbing out of tight spaces involved, things become much less complicated. You know, less contact with different armoured body parts to metallic survaces, no need to use bulky gloves to grab onto things to move forward. Only moving one foot in front of the other. I find it ironcly to discuss the something that just cannot be (raptor in air duct..blabla) when it's a Fictional universe...If gw/black library writes it, then it's possible.. Suspension of disbelief, man. A sci-fi universe where near impenetrable Tactical Dreadnought Armour exists? Sure, no problem. A story where a Marine in such a Tactical Dreadnought Armour squeezes through a 30" gap of a broken blast door? No way. Well if you put it that way, I can understand :P Guess some authors sometimes get carried away... the sneaking up on telion was in a ultramarine novel ?? the last one with M'kar ? did not like that one bit.. a lot of controversy IMO in that book.. not one of his greatest jobs.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3122097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Rolunde Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 As a side note (beisdes those comparisons being of little use; apples and oranges and all that): answering complains about how Space Marines sneaking around was handled poorly in a Black Library novels with further examples of Space Marines sneaking around being hanlded poorly in other Black Library novels is not much help at all. 100% my own opinion; but 100% agreed with this!^ Also IMO what would be cool is that when a character has to go into "super mega sneaky mode" such as put forth, crawling around in the air ducts and sneaking up on or past someone with very acute senses. Personally, I think it'd be interesting to see them ditch the armor completely. I mean, isn't a Marine still a bad@$$ without his armor?! Also, surely Space Wolf Scouts (who are verterans) should have a level of skill matching those of any other "sneaks" there are to be found, yet they still make use of Scout armor even though some of the novels would have us believe that Wolves are capable of moving with a degree of stealth in Power Armor. Not to add more fuel there with the idea that Wolf Guard in PA (or God forbid TDA) being able to join them or not... :D Give 'em a tunic and a combat knife and he still is supposed to be one of the greatest combatants in the Galaxy. But I don't want to go off on a big rant about how some authors handle the 40k details vs how some of the others do. I'll just do my best to avoid reading "those books" when I am aware of them. Because the killing of my suspension of disbelief is also killing my enjoyment. But I get that there are people that don't have these hang-ups. A couple of my friends are right along with them! To each their own. And all rather off topic at this point... :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3122291 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwyf Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 The reason the armor makes no sound is due from skill and also aural dampeners literally built into the armor that eliminate all sound. So sneaking up on people in armor that doesn't make sound with Astartes who are literally superhuman and have received training for centuries around those superhuman abilities is not a stretch of the imagination. If you want some simply jaw widening examples of breaking suspension of disbelief there's one Iron Snakes short story or novel where I believe it was one squad of Iron Snakes killed over a thousand Dark Eldar with no losses. Insane. I'm so glad tabletop Astartes aren't like the ones in the novel or else you'd never win playing against them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3122395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 The reason the armor makes no sound is due from skill and also aural dampeners literally built into the armor that eliminate all sound. Now that is some humbug contrived plot deus ex machina gadget if I have ever seen one. Too bad the Imperium couldn't afford a full on stealth field, that would have made things even easier for our Space Marine ninjas. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3122405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfGuardVortek Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 The reason the armor makes no sound is due from skill and also aural dampeners literally built into the armor that eliminate all sound. So sneaking up on people in armor that doesn't make sound with Astartes who are literally superhuman and have received training for centuries around those superhuman abilities is not a stretch of the imagination. If you want some simply jaw widening examples of breaking suspension of disbelief there's one Iron Snakes short story or novel where I believe it was one squad of Iron Snakes killed over a thousand Dark Eldar with no losses. Insane. I'm so glad tabletop Astartes aren't like the ones in the novel or else you'd never win playing against them. I think that might be more of an example of Dan not really understanding space marines that well and vastly under-estimating how scary dark eldar are. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3122417 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwyf Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 The reason the armor makes no sound is due from skill and also aural dampeners literally built into the armor that eliminate all sound. Now that is some humbug contrived plot deus ex machina gadget if I have ever seen one. Too bad the Imperium couldn't afford a full on stealth field, that would have made things even easier for our Space Marine ninjas. I didn't invent it, just relating why their armor is so silent. It is built that way. I also want to say I remember reading another story or novel where some Officio Assassins were running around in stealth armor that had aural dampeners in it that eliminated sound. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3122426 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Rolunde Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 /snip/... examples of breaking suspension of disbelief there's one Iron Snakes short story or novel where I believe it was one squad of Iron Snakes killed over a thousand Dark Eldar with no losses. Insane. I'm so glad tabletop Astartes aren't like the ones in the novel or else you'd never win playing against them. I think that might be more of an example of Dan not really understanding space marines that well and vastly under-estimating how scary dark eldar are. I used to feel that the Lore set how powerful Marines are and the model's stat lines simply failed to live up to that level of awesome on the table, indeed for playability (Hollywood Space Marine lists aside! :lol: ). Just in the last year or two I've switched that thought process around and decided that as far as I am concerned the game stat line is the truth and that fairly often the lore over hypes them. (So now for example the Hollywood list would actually be larger than life, exaggerated action heroes rather than closer to the truth.) I mean it does happen that as the story of our heroes are retold their legend grows. So a Platoon of Marines encounters a roughly equal sized force of Eldar. As the story goes, especially being fed through the Imperial Editorial Machine for "improved accuracy" for its citizens, the tale eventually comes to be told that a Squad of Marines encounter an Eldar battalion. Living on Ceti Alpha Six, you live your entire life never seeing an Astartes warrior, but here the tales of how what may actually be 6'5" tall Marines are 8' tall giants of muscle and can flip tanks and such. The gods walk among men... ;) But again I get that this is a case of "I reject your reality and substitute your own." Someone wants to feel that the Lore of 8' tall marines with full auto 40mm grenade launchers is the truth, I can't really say they are wrong and I am right. Just that I see it now the other way around. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3122446 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 The reason the armor makes no sound is due from skill and also aural dampeners literally built into the armor that eliminate all sound. Now that is some humbug contrived plot deus ex machina gadget if I have ever seen one. Too bad the Imperium couldn't afford a full on stealth field, that would have made things even easier for our Space Marine ninjas. A sword that ignores armor! What a humbug contrived plot deus ex machina gadget if I have ever seen one. A Halo that protects you magically with a force field! What a humbug contrived plot deus ex machina gadget if I have ever seen one. A gun that fires plasma blasts at someone! What a humbug contrived plot deus ex machina gadget if I have ever seen one. :lol: Just in the last year or two I've switched that thought process around and decided that as far as I am concerned the game stat line is the truth and that fairly often the lore over hypes them. (So now for example the Hollywood list would actually be larger than life, exaggerated action heroes rather than closer to the truth.) Then logically is you follow the rest of the fluff, Space Marine chapters must be much larger than 1000 men, as if they had tabletop stats then an entire Chapter could be easily wiped out if they encountered just a few thousand Guardsmen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3122452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Rolunde Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 Then logically is you follow the rest of the fluff, Space Marine chapters must be much larger than 1000 men, as if they had tabletop stats then an entire Chapter could be easily wiped out if they encountered just a few thousand Guardsmen. Oh that is such a slippery slope right there, I don't even want to consider that part of it, haha. :P But yeah, there would indeed need to be more Marines than as advertised, but also keeping in mind there does need to be some limit for game vs lore. Because otherwise we start to run into the logistics of 2 players both fielding Dante at the same time, etc. :lol: As can probably be pretty quickly found out with my posts, I do focus more on the 30k era of fluff, where the Astartes Legions have been retconned into being Far Larger than the traditional 40k Space Marine Chapters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3122480 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 The reason the armor makes no sound is due from skill and also aural dampeners literally built into the armor that eliminate all sound. So sneaking up on people in armor that doesn't make sound with Astartes who are literally superhuman and have received training for centuries around those superhuman abilities is not a stretch of the imagination. If you want some simply jaw widening examples of breaking suspension of disbelief there's one Iron Snakes short story or novel where I believe it was one squad of Iron Snakes killed over a thousand Dark Eldar with no losses. Insane. I'm so glad tabletop Astartes aren't like the ones in the novel or else you'd never win playing against them. I think that might be more of an example of Dan not really understanding space marines that well and vastly under-estimating how scary dark eldar are. That chapter wasn't meant to be taken literally. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3122482 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Rolunde Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 **weird delayed double post** Move along, move along; this is not the post you're looking for. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3122486 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 A sword that ignores armor! What a humbug contrived plot deus ex machina gadget if I have ever seen one. A Halo that protects you magically with a force field! What a humbug contrived plot deus ex machina gadget if I have ever seen one. A gun that fires plasma blasts at someone! What a humbug contrived plot deus ex machina gadget if I have ever seen one. Those are all par for the course. But an author wanting to have the 8 foot heavy armoured shock troopers with full auto grenade launchers sneak around like ninjas inventing a sound dampening device for that particular purpose? That is horribly contrived. That is like the "bat handwriting analyzer" batman and robin just so happen to have when finding a strange riddly note. "Sergeant Corvus, those warp beats have a keen sense of smell. We will never be able to sneak past them." "No problem. Activate the odor suppression devices." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3122495 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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