Were "the Betrayed/Survivors" declaired Traitors?

[Gree]

A sword that ignores armor! What a humbug contrived plot deus ex machina gadget if I have ever seen one. A Halo that protects you magically with a force field! What a humbug contrived plot deus ex machina gadget if I have ever seen one. A gun that fires plasma blasts at someone! What a humbug contrived plot deus ex machina gadget if I have ever seen one.

Those are all par for the course. But an author wanting to have the 8 foot heavy armoured shock troopers with full auto grenade launchers sneak around like ninjas inventing a sound dampening device for that particular purpose? That is horribly contrived. That is like the "bat handwriting analyzer" batman and robin just so happen to have when finding a strange riddly note.

 

 

"Sergeant Corvus, those warp beats have a keen sense of smell. We will never be able to sneak past them."

 

"No problem. Activate the odor suppression devices."

 

How exactly is that contrived? The Imperium is certainly advanced enough to have that and more advanced technology, and the Raven Guard Chapter is exactly the type of organization to try and procure such technology. I'm not really quite sure how that's more contrived than officers wearing giant flags into combat or wielding the power of their minds to blow up people with psychic powers.

[Legatus]

I'm not really quite sure how that's more contrived than officers wearing giant flags into combat or wielding the power of their minds to blow up people with psychic powers.

Officiers wear giant flags because squad leader models with giant flags look cool.

 

Psykers have the power to blow people up with their mind because magic forces are cool.

 

Someone wanting Space Marines to sneak around (which on the one hand is something they are not generally described to do, and on the other hand is not what one would expect of them when seeing the models or artworks of them, provided a modicum of common sense) and thus coming up with a technology that would circumvent their innate inability to do so that had been taken for granted for the early four editions of the game, that is contrived.

[Gree]

Someone wanting Space Marines to sneak around (which on the one hand is something they are not generally described to do, and on the other hand is not what one would expect of them when seeing the models or artworks of them, provided a modicum of common sense) and thus coming up with a technology that would circumvent their innate inability to do so that had been taken for granted for the early four editions of the game, that is contrived.

 

But the Raven Guard are described as doing that. They are the stealth chapter. They sneak around. I've seen Raven Guard models depicted as infiltrating. We are not talking about the Adeptus Astartes as a whole, we are talking about the sneaky Chapters, like the Raven Guard and suchlike. It makes perfect sense that they would use technology to help them sneak better.

[A D-B]

As a side note (beisdes those comparisons being of little use; apples and oranges and all that): answering complains about how Space Marines sneaking around was handled poorly in a Black Library novels with further examples of Space Marines sneaking around being hanlded poorly in other Black Library novels is not much help at all.

 

Not that I'm any authority here, but (as an example) this is exactly what I mean when I say every writer (whether they're a fan, a Forge World writer, a Black Library author, or a Codex designer) basically sees 40K through their own lenses - and that's very much the point. That's the point as it was explained to me my GW Brass, and it's the point as I see it when I write.

 

To me, that sound nullifier tech just wouldn't exist with Space Marines in my perception of 40K, at least not with the Raven Guard who are famously under-equipped with older marks of armour, and when examples of Space Wolf scouts being primary examples of why you leave the power armour at home when you go a-sneakin'. That doesn't make it wrong. It doesn't even mean I dislike the idea (I don't; I think something like that could absolutely exist all over the place in 40K). It just doesn't match how I see the Raven Guard, so to me, they'll never use something like that if I ever touch them in my writing, because they don't have access to it. I think it offers a cool look at the Chapter, and one a lot of people will like, too. There's no right or wrong answer.

[Gree]

To me, that sound nullifier tech just wouldn't exist with Space Marines in my perception of 40K, at least not with the Raven Guard who are famously under-equipped with older marks of armour, and when examples of Space Wolf scouts being primary examples of why you leave the power armour at home when you go a-sneakin'. That doesn't make it wrong. it doesn't even mean I dislike the idea (I don't; I think something like that could absolutely exist all over the place in 40K). It just doesn't match how I see the Raven Guard, so to me, they'll never use something like that if I ever touch them in my writing, because they don't have access to it.

 

I never understood why the Raven Guard would be underequipped. It's been ten millenia since the Heresy and they're a First Founding Chapter. In fact their homeworld is even stated to have a high industrial output in their Index Astartes. Surely any losses would have been replaced a long-time ago.

[A D-B]

To me, that sound nullifier tech just wouldn't exist with Space Marines in my perception of 40K, at least not with the Raven Guard who are famously under-equipped with older marks of armour, and when examples of Space Wolf scouts being primary examples of why you leave the power armour at home when you go a-sneakin'. That doesn't make it wrong. it doesn't even mean I dislike the idea (I don't; I think something like that could absolutely exist all over the place in 40K). It just doesn't match how I see the Raven Guard, so to me, they'll never use something like that if I ever touch them in my writing, because they don't have access to it.

 

I never understood why the Raven Guard would be underequipped. It's been ten millenia since the Heresy and they're a First Founding Chapter. In fact their homeworld is even stated to have a high industrial output in their Index Astartes. Surely any losses would have been replaced a long-time ago.

 

You'd think so. I'd think so too, but I didn't write the article.

 

Either way, it's tangential to the point.

[Legatus]

But the Raven Guard are described as doing that.

In the Horus Heresy series perhaps. In the Index Astartes they left the reconnaisance operations to their Scouts, and employed units in drop pods or Assault squads as rapid response forces to strike at vulnerable enemies. The speciality of the Raven Guard was rapid redeployment of their forces, and not sneaking power armoured units. This was not only described in their Combat Doctrines, it was also represented in their first rules, where they were able to deep strike a lot of units (this was pre Drop Pod rules) and got bonuses for reserve rolls when they had Scouts on the board. Their Scouts would sneak around and find a suitable target, and then the Drop Pods and Assault Marines were called in to take it out.

 

The Index Astartes and the 4th and 5th Edition Codex briefly mention "operating behind enemy lines" and Shrike leading his men for several months undetected behind the lines of an Ork Horde, but these instances of "stealth" are on a regimental level, where a larger force evades detection and cannot be pinned down by the enemy, due to fast actions and redeployment. they are not feats of sneaking tactical and assault Marines. They were not acting like Rambo or Solid Snake, sneaking up on Ork sentries and stealth killing them. They were more like Rommel's Ghost Division, moving so fast or disappearing so quickly after a raid that the enemy was unable to mount a counter attack or to pin down their location.

 

Their theme is rapid re-deployment, being the ones that decide where to fight, and evade counter attacks. Their theme is not silent power armoured Marines stealth killing enemy sentries. Well, I guess according to the Horus Heresy series it now is.

[Gree]

But the Raven Guard are described as doing that.

In the Horus Heresy series perhaps. In the Index Astartes they left the reconnaisance operations to their Scouts, and employed units in drop pods or Assault squads as rapid response forces to strike at vulnerable enemies. The speciality of the Raven Guard was rapid redeployment of their forces, and not sneaking power armoured units. This was not only described in their Combat Doctrines, it was also represented in their first rules, where they were able to deep strike a lot of units (this was pre Drop Pod rules) and got bonuses for reserve rolls when they had Scouts on the board. Their Scouts would sneak around and find a suitable target, and then the Drop Pods and Assault Marines were called in to take it out.

 

The Index Astartes and the 4th and 5th Edition Codex briefly mention "operating behind enemy lines" and Shrike leading his men for several months undetected behind the lines of an Ork Horde, but these instances of "stealth" are on a regimental level, where a larger force evades detection and cannot be pinned down by the enemy, due to fast actions and redeployment. they are not feats of sneaking tactical and assault Marines. They were not acting like Rambo or Solid Snake, sneaking up on Ork sentries and stealth killing them. They were more like Rommel's Ghost Division, moving so fast or disappearing so quickly after a raid that the enemy was unable to mount a counter attack or to pin down their location.

 

Their theme is rapid re-deployment, being the ones that decide where to fight, and evade counter attacks. Their theme is not silent power armoured Marines stealth killing enemy sentries. Well, I guess according to the Horus Heresy series it now is.

 

Not just the Horus Heresy series. They sneak around in Chapter's Due. They sneak around in Helion Rain. They sneak around in the Unkindess of Ravens. They sneak around a couple of other short stories written by George Mann. The Deathwatch RPG books introduce them as having imrpoved stealth skills compared to other Astartes and special equipment to help them move silently.

 

In fact as much as I can recall, pretty much every peice of fluff since then has them sneaking around like ninjas. Face it, the Raven Guard have evolved and changed since then.

 

And no, even Shrike's descriptions talks about them ''slipping away into the shadowed ruins'' and ''lurking in the darkness.'' There is certainly enough vague elements to support any interpretation.

[Legatus]

In fact as much as I can recall, pretty much every peice of fluff since then has them sneaking around like ninjas. Face it, the Raven Guard have evolved and changed since then.

More and more pieces of fluff have picked up on the flawed Codex Astartes from the Uriel Ventris novels. Needless to say, I do not view the influence the Black Library novels have on the Warhammer 40k franchise as positive as many others do.

 

In a way, the WH40k game sourcebooks (of the 2nd Edition) are like the original Star Wars movies, creating a wonderful sci-fi universe. The Black Library novels are like licensed Star Wars media (you might get the occasional clone wars cartoon, but you also might get a holiday special). And the Horus Heresy series is like the three prequel movies (bigger "budget", but full of retcons and basically just cheapening the original).

[Gree]

In a way, the WH40k game sourcebooks (of the 2nd Edition) are like the original Star Wars movies, creating a wonderful sci-fi universe. The Black Library novels are like licensed Star Wars media (you might get the occasional clone wars cartoon, but you also might get a holiday special). And the Horus Heresy series is like the three prequel movies (bigger "budget", but full of retcons and basically just cheapening the original).

 

No, it's really nothing like the Star Trek EU system, I assure you. A D-B already compared and explained the differences between the two in his blog. It's all equally valid. Star Wars is not. If you are going to argue issues of the Raven Guard and Astartes stealth then I have many examples to pull up and refute you with.

 

Furthermore the 40k settting and policy deliberately encourages writers to make their own different interpretations. Such a thing is not the same with Lucas or the various subcontractors. Yes, yes, I know you hold on tightly to your Second Edition codices and regard anything new with distain, but they are now published and wheter they make sense or not is up for debate.

 

And of course, that all assumes that said original fluff and sourcebooks were nessecarily good.

[Legatus]

In a way, the WH40k game sourcebooks (of the 2nd Edition) are like the original Star Wars movies, creating a wonderful sci-fi universe. The Black Library novels are like licensed Star Wars media (you might get the occasional clone wars cartoon, but you also might get a holiday special). And the Horus Heresy series is like the three prequel movies (bigger "budget", but full of retcons and basically just cheapening the original).

No, it's really nothing like the Star Trek EU system, I assure you. A D-B already compared and explained the differences between the two in his blog. It's all equally valid. Star Wars is not.

Obviously I was refering to what kind of impact the different products had on the franchise, not to how the different producs are officially recognized.

 

 

If you are going to argue issues of the Raven Guard and Astartes stealth then I have many examples to pull up and refute you with.

I guess we'll have to settle with me preferring the 40K sourcebook Raven Guard and you prefering the Black Library Raven Guard.

[Bulwyf]

To me, that sound nullifier tech just wouldn't exist with Space Marines in my perception of 40K, at least not with the Raven Guard who are famously under-equipped with older marks of armour, and when examples of Space Wolf scouts being primary examples of why you leave the power armour at home when you go a-sneakin'. That doesn't make it wrong. it doesn't even mean I dislike the idea (I don't; I think something like that could absolutely exist all over the place in 40K). It just doesn't match how I see the Raven Guard, so to me, they'll never use something like that if I ever touch them in my writing, because they don't have access to it.

 

I never understood why the Raven Guard would be underequipped. It's been ten millenia since the Heresy and they're a First Founding Chapter. In fact their homeworld is even stated to have a high industrial output in their Index Astartes. Surely any losses would have been replaced a long-time ago.

 

You'd think so. I'd think so too, but I didn't write the article.

 

Either way, it's tangential to the point.

 

The only thing I can see from today's Raven Guard would be like the survivors of the Great Depression or people I personally know that escaped famine conditions in Ethopia and the Sudan. They can be surrounded on all sides by food and easy access to it but still eat sparingly and hate wasting any morsel of food. I can see the Raven Guard in modern times being used to such munitions deprivation that they are parsimonious to the degree of obsession about being careful with using more advanced weapons, armor, Terminators or Dreadnoughts.

 

That is the only rational explanation I can find for why any Legion or Chapter in today's 40k universe would still feel any sting from material loss 10,000 years ago.

 

 

Also back to the aural dampeners: I seem to recall suggesting years ago on this very site in a discussion about Night Lords and Sahaal that you were in that to help explain why Night Lords might be quiet enough to sneak up on people in power armor that they used aural dampeners and that it could also explain that bit in the lore as to why NL armor has lightning effects around it as either an intentional or unintentional byproduct of the use of the aural dampeners in the armor since it wasn't originally equipped for it.

[Captain Rolunde]

/snip/... even Shrike's descriptions talks about them ''slipping away into the shadowed ruins'' and ''lurking in the darkness.'' There is certainly enough vague elements to support any interpretation.

 

I suspect some kind of dirty Eldar/xenos tech usage; or more likely some kind of unholy Chaos mutation or sorcery at work there.

 

Especially considering:

"The genetic material of the Raven Guard was greatly damaged by the accelerated processes utilized following the Drop Site Massacre of Istvaan V."

"Even further degeneration in the gene-seed has caused several of the implants to fail."

"...and other defects within the gene-seed cause Raven Guard Space Marines' skin to become paler over time until it is as white as their Primarch’s, and the eyes and hair of all Raven Guard Astartes will eventually become a deep black."

 

I mean come on, that last bit right there, according to the Adeptus Custodes in The First Heretic is pretty much enough to see them "cleansed". :P

 

The Emperor's Finest do not go quietly through the night... skulking about, like thieves or Night Lords.

 

OR... Alpha Legion! dun dun dun... ^_^

 

Henceforth, I shall have to make sure not to allow any Raven Guards into my Deathwatch... :ermm:

[Gree]

The Emperor's Finest do not go quietly through the night... skulking about, like thieves or Night Lords.

 

That's what Scouts do you realize?

 

But really, I don't even care anymore. I'm dropping out of this discussion about the Raven Guard.

[Captain Rolunde]

The Emperor's Finest do not go quietly through the night... skulking about, like thieves or Night Lords.

 

That's what Scouts do you realize?

 

But really, I don't even care anymore. I'm dropping out of this discussion about the Raven Guard.

 

Scouts aren't the "Emperor's Finest",

they're still in training. ^_^

 

If they make it, then they get their Power Armor and leave their skuling ways behind them. :ermm:

 

Cheers Gree!

 

~CR~

[Marius Vairosean]

Just finished third night lords novel after becoming interested in them through the HH books of which I am a massive fan and (maybe sadly)have read them all. Nostramo was a den of iniquity and constant darkness. Murder, beat, gang warfare etc. were the norm. Until the night haunter, the Primarch who landed on Nostramo in his growth chamber then as an infant began a campaign of retribution on the evils he saw. The planet then saw a form of peace through fear eventually. The Emperor the found him, named him Konrad Curze (stupidest primarch name imo konrad? Really?) and bequethed him the legion. After prosecuting the Great Crusade by fear and deception he ended up destroying Nostramo with cyclonic warheads to stem the flow of rapists and murderers into the ranks of the legion he ended up hating. Curze was assasinated by an imperial assasin then the legion remained at Tsagualsa where all the primogenitors of the Ultramarines attacked as one and split up/decimated the legion. No one controlled the entire legion after Curze although in 40k there in a prophet who may unite the warbands of the Night Lords.

This my first ever post sorry if went on a bit!

[Bulwyf]

Just finished third night lords novel after becoming interested in them through the HH books of which I am a massive fan and (maybe sadly)have read them all. Nostramo was a den of iniquity and constant darkness. Murder, beat, gang warfare etc. were the norm. Until the night haunter, the Primarch who landed on Nostramo in his growth chamber then as an infant began a campaign of retribution on the evils he saw. The planet then saw a form of peace through fear eventually. The Emperor the found him, named him Konrad Curze (stupidest primarch name imo konrad? Really?) and bequethed him the legion. After prosecuting the Great Crusade by fear and deception he ended up destroying Nostramo with cyclonic warheads to stem the flow of rapists and murderers into the ranks of the legion he ended up hating. Curze was assasinated by an imperial assasin then the legion remained at Tsagualsa where all the primogenitors of the Ultramarines attacked as one and split up/decimated the legion. No one controlled the entire legion after Curze although in 40k there in a prophet who may unite the warbands of the Night Lords.

This my first ever post sorry if went on a bit!

 

Welcome to the boards.

[Inquisitor Engel]

(stupidest primarch name imo konrad? Really?)

 

Welcome to the board.

 

I now present, classic literature. ;)

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/87/Heart_of_Darkness.jpg/200px-Heart_of_Darkness.jpg

 

http://books.google.com/books/about/The_He...id=qQlN7E1pi9YC

 

It's a fabulous read. Basically, the central 'villain' of HoD is named Kurtz. Obviously his first name comes from the author, Jospeh Conrad. In "Apocalypse Now," which is HoD set in Vietnam, Martin Sheen plays Kurtz's hunter/killer, so they Assassin who kills Curze is name M'Shen (Why they made it a Calidus and therefore a she is beyond me, an Eversor would have done just as well) I strongly recommend reading it. If you'd like a more interactive version of the story, the recently released "Spec Ops: The Line" is basically the same story set in the desert instead of the jungle.

 

Suffice to say, GW used to be way, way less subtle about their historical, literary and pop-culture influences.

[Marius Vairosean]

Welcome to the boards.

 

Thanks. This place is cool. I'd just like to say that i've just read all three Night Lords novels and i'm a big fan of your writing ADB. I think Talos was a little too nice in the first two but still an awesome character. Really enjoyed The First Heretic too. One of my favourite HH books. I'm very into the history of the primarchs and the legions. Can anyone tell me why nobody has touched Sanguinius and the Blood Angels legion? A Flawed Angel of war, achingly beautiful yet somehow carrying the flaws that afflict the blood angels! how cool would that be!! He should have been done on the early crusade stories imo Is there many of the authors on here?

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Thanks. This place is cool. I'd just like to say that i've just read all three Night Lords novels and i'm a big fan of your writing ADB. I think Talos was a little too nice in the first two but still an awesome character. Really enjoyed The First Heretic too. One of my favourite HH books. I'm very into the history of the primarchs and the legions. Can anyone tell me why nobody has touched Sanguinius and the Blood Angels legion? A Flawed Angel of war, achingly beautiful yet somehow carrying the flaws that afflict the blood angels! how cool would that be!! He should have been done on the early crusade stories imo Is there many of the authors on here?

 

Perhaps they are saving the best for last. An Ace up their sleeve even.

[Captain Rolunde]

Sanguinuis and the Blood Angels?!

 

Well "Good News Everyone", because: http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/fear-to-tread.html

[Apothecary Vaddon]

I guess we'll have to settle with me preferring the 40K sourcebook Raven Guard and you prefering the Black Library Raven Guard.

Funny thing is, both are equally valid. Both are canonical, or non-canonical (depends on your interpretation of what BL and GW puts out).

^^^

Also, copies are out - or at least, author copies are out. Swallow put up pics of a few copies he got a few days back

[Marius Vairosean]

Sanguinuis and the Blood Angels?!

 

Well "Good News Everyone", because: http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/fear-to-tread.html

 

that looks very cool. i'm surprised Blood Angels have not been done before! In answer to the original subject each legion that had turned to Horus had a purge of the disloyal. each Legion having already formed brotherhoods, lodges etc. of those counted as "loyal". Garro and The Flight of The Eisenstein having been mentioned already. Isstvan III being the anvil upon which the Traitor Legions were formed.

[Emperors Immortals]

(stupidest primarch name imo konrad? Really?)

 

Welcome to the board.

 

I now present, classic literature. ;)

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/87/Heart_of_Darkness.jpg/200px-Heart_of_Darkness.jpg

 

http://books.google.com/books/about/The_He...id=qQlN7E1pi9YC

 

It's a fabulous read. Basically, the central 'villain' of HoD is named Kurtz. Obviously his first name comes from the author, Jospeh Conrad. In "Apocalypse Now," which is HoD set in Vietnam, Martin Sheen plays Kurtz's hunter/killer, so they Assassin who kills Curze is name M'Shen (Why they made it a Calidus and therefore a she is beyond me, an Eversor would have done just as well) I strongly recommend reading it. If you'd like a more interactive version of the story, the recently released "Spec Ops: The Line" is basically the same story set in the desert instead of the jungle.

 

Suffice to say, GW used to be way, way less subtle about their historical, literary and pop-culture influences.

 

 

I just had to re-recommend this, please read this book - most of modern psychological and philosophical concepts are shown very clearly ie the idea of a noble primitive state, "civilisation" being dependant on "progress" and of course the duality of human ethics. Apocolypse Now may be more accesible and has an amazing cast.

 

cant wait for that "like" button to start lol.

[nuclearship]

argh, double post, please delete