nuclearship Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Just to note some errors in here: there is nothing wrong with sneak kills in power armor. There is a diffeence between a tactical Marine moving silently through an urban environment or hinterland and a friggin raptor with jump pack and lightning claws climbing out of an air duct. As for Sahaal's explanation I still think it has merit. No, it doesn't. We know pretty well under what circumstances the Night Lords turned. Since 2nd Edition. Plus, I may be too blinded by several editions of Codex and Rulebook descriptions of the Great Crusade, where the goal was to liberate human worlds from Chaos and alien enslavement. I have not read much of the Horus Heresy series, where the Emperor apparently has been turned into much more of a genocidal maniac. Since you seem to enjoy the Horus Heresy descriptions about stealthy Space Marines and the evil Emperor, I guess we can safely say that your Emperor is not the same as my Emperor. That's GW's "choose your own truth" for you. Why would there be a difference? Have you ever hunted or been camping in deep forests or waste land area? I have and it can be incredibly quiet at times. You can literally hear your heart beating in your ears and can hear your clothing moving against itself because of the lack of surrounding sound. If a Raven Guard can sneak up on a trained soldier or another Space Marine in those kind of conditions because their modified armor can remove any sound from escaping how different is that from someone dropping out of an air duct? Secondly, I've been a fan of 40k since Rogue Trader days. The Emperor has not been suddenly portrayed as a genocidal monster in the HH novels. He has *always* been depicted that way. He killed millions to unify Terra then he killed trillions of humans in the Great Crusade and trillions more aliens for no other reason than they were aliens. Yes, in some cases as you stated there were world that were enslaved by Chaos demons or Chaos tainted regimes or hostile alien cultures but in more cases they simply wiped out human resistance to being conquered or killed friendly aliens just to remove them. This is also not to mention his killing off billions because he decided no one should have religion. So I have to dispute your assertion that GW is changing the lore to such a degree that gamers have two valid alternative views of the Emperor (at least) to choose from. Hi there Sorry to bring this up once again, I wasn't here for some weeks. Do you have a reference for this statement? I think millions were already dead on Terra and he just unified what was left with all the force that was necessary. He never slaughtered anyone for the sake of slaughter. His armies just vanquished all that stood against them (why even stand against someone who offers you peace and prosperity?) More so, he didn't kill trillions of humans in the Great Crusade. He just gave his Primarchs permission to bring all human worlds back into the empire. As you could see in the HH series there were some Primarchs that valued life more than others and were more often searching to talk to the opponents than just smash trough them with everything they have. And I think all the accounts of the Imperator in battle were against Xenos, right? And even for Xenos. There was no absolute order that no Xenos shall exist. This came after his ascension to the throne. Even in the new rulebook it is stated that xenophobia was on his heights after the scouring. The Laeran were even considered to be a protecariat of the Empire before Fulgrim decided to attack them. We can say for sure that he had some issues. You can not give peace to a galaxy without breaking some things. But war was never fought just for it's own sake and I don't believe there is any written account of him ordering someone to eradicate helpless people or peacful aliens. It is not necessary to be a fan-boy of the Emperor to see that he wasn't a bad person. I think it's a phenomenon of our time that all heroes must have a dark side to appease everyone. So most of the people who say he was a homicidal maniac just want to see them so without any proof of it :pinch: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/6/#findComment-3128510 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baynachew Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 In terms of looking at the remnants of people who survived the initial purging at Isstvan V, there was also the drop site massacre of Isstvan VI, which wiped out a large section of the loyalist legions, Those that survived both were picked up Garro in the Spin-off series of the audio dramas. Having all the books from book 1 - 20 is quite helpful, i managed to pick them all up for a nice price a while ago. Abyss was great, and helped set up a background for Know No Fear. Deliverance Lost, also was quite important. The thing about Outcast Dead was that it started the important shift of the series towards the events of firstly Post Dropsite, and looking abit into the preparations that the remaining loyalists were going through, a number of ex-luna wolves and other loyalists struggled getting back. I personally feel that Loken survives and becomes part of the work of the proto-inquisition. Besides which... alot is left for the readers to decide. Personally i am busy designing a small Death Watch campaign based around the return to what is now the dead worlds of both Isstvan V and VI. It should be fun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/6/#findComment-3129494 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 In terms of looking at the remnants of people who survived the initial purging at Isstvan V, there was also the drop site massacre of Isstvan VI, which wiped out a large section of the loyalist legions, Those that survived both were picked up Garro in the Spin-off series of the audio dramas. Having all the books from book 1 - 20 is quite helpful, i managed to pick them all up for a nice price a while ago. Abyss was great, and helped set up a background for Know No Fear. Deliverance Lost, also was quite important. The thing about Outcast Dead was that it started the important shift of the series towards the events of firstly Post Dropsite, and looking abit into the preparations that the remaining loyalists were going through, a number of ex-luna wolves and other loyalists struggled getting back. I personally feel that Loken survives and becomes part of the work of the proto-inquisition. Besides which... alot is left for the readers to decide. Personally i am busy designing a small Death Watch campaign based around the return to what is now the dead worlds of both Isstvan V and VI. It should be fun. Isstvan III was the spark/ purge, not V. V was the drop site massacre, not VI. All the talk about the Night Lords is interesting, too bad it sheds ZERO light on the possibility of any Loyalists in the Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/6/#findComment-3130620 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baynachew Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Isstvan III was the spark/ purge, not V. V was the drop site massacre, not VI. Apologies, it's been a while since I've read the first 4 books. Also, in terms of addressing the Night Lords, according to the Lexicanum, they were only labelled "Chaos" Later, for a good long time, they'd actually just become renegade, they'd only fallen to chaos after the death of batma--- i mean Konrad Kurze. The Night Lords were and largely still are, skeptics. Possessed of no (un)holy crusade, no unifying belief, martial creed or even bonds of honour, they exist merely to reap the spoils of their actions and terrify those they despise. Most of them (though far from all) have little to no interest in Chaos itself and shun the company of those that do. Their use of terror tactics and fondness for piracy and salvage operations are the only common themes found amongst them.[1]The desire to cause fear is central to what philosophy the Night Lords have. This has become ritualised, to the extent that each Night Lord goes out of their way to affect a terrifying appearance, having their armour heavily artificed with symbols and imagery of death and nightmare such as skulls, skeletons, winged maws, lighting etc. Any edge gained over an opponent - including psychological ones - is important to the Night Lords. As a result, it is not uncommon for Night Lords to own a variety of personal weapons (some ornate, ancient and very deadly) and to prize them highly.[1,2] A development of the Night Lords terror-tactics is that of dominance; the Night Lords believe in theoretically achieving it before beginning a combat action in the first place, and will go out of their way to gain a superior position over the enemy, using psychological warfare for some time before the attack, or stealth-tactics in order to infiltrate the battlefield or set up in ambush. Night Lords, while not averse to enjoying the slaughter they cause, do not simply engage in battle for the enjoyment in brings; they only fight when they intend to win, and win easily and well. A Night Lord will attempt every underhanded trick he knows before engaging in a straightforward, stand-up fight.[1] Info from Lexicanum Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/6/#findComment-3130643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 According to the Night Lords Index Astartes they were "Chaos" before they even sided with Horus. "In the wake of this terrible act [destroying Nostramo, no Heresy yet, still on the side of the Imperium], Night Haunter became susceptible to the whispered temptations of Chaos. By this time, he was dangerously unhinged, leaving a trail of devastated worlds across the galaxy. Few civilised worlds were totally without blemish, and the pretexts on which Night Haunter launched full-scale invasions became less and less credible. Imperial reconnaissance craft followed in the wake of the Night Lords' fleet, reporting back to the Emperor's throne room across unimaginable stretches of time and space.The atrocities the Night Lords were wreaking in the Emperor's name were abhorrent. Blasphemous acts and horrendous violence were the signature of the Night Lords' visitations, the fleet pressing ever onwards so as to avoid retribution." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/6/#findComment-3130740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwyf Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Just to note some errors in here: there is nothing wrong with sneak kills in power armor. There is a diffeence between a tactical Marine moving silently through an urban environment or hinterland and a friggin raptor with jump pack and lightning claws climbing out of an air duct. As for Sahaal's explanation I still think it has merit. No, it doesn't. We know pretty well under what circumstances the Night Lords turned. Since 2nd Edition. Plus, I may be too blinded by several editions of Codex and Rulebook descriptions of the Great Crusade, where the goal was to liberate human worlds from Chaos and alien enslavement. I have not read much of the Horus Heresy series, where the Emperor apparently has been turned into much more of a genocidal maniac. Since you seem to enjoy the Horus Heresy descriptions about stealthy Space Marines and the evil Emperor, I guess we can safely say that your Emperor is not the same as my Emperor. That's GW's "choose your own truth" for you. Why would there be a difference? Have you ever hunted or been camping in deep forests or waste land area? I have and it can be incredibly quiet at times. You can literally hear your heart beating in your ears and can hear your clothing moving against itself because of the lack of surrounding sound. If a Raven Guard can sneak up on a trained soldier or another Space Marine in those kind of conditions because their modified armor can remove any sound from escaping how different is that from someone dropping out of an air duct? Secondly, I've been a fan of 40k since Rogue Trader days. The Emperor has not been suddenly portrayed as a genocidal monster in the HH novels. He has *always* been depicted that way. He killed millions to unify Terra then he killed trillions of humans in the Great Crusade and trillions more aliens for no other reason than they were aliens. Yes, in some cases as you stated there were world that were enslaved by Chaos demons or Chaos tainted regimes or hostile alien cultures but in more cases they simply wiped out human resistance to being conquered or killed friendly aliens just to remove them. This is also not to mention his killing off billions because he decided no one should have religion. So I have to dispute your assertion that GW is changing the lore to such a degree that gamers have two valid alternative views of the Emperor (at least) to choose from. Hi there Sorry to bring this up once again, I wasn't here for some weeks. Do you have a reference for this statement? I think millions were already dead on Terra and he just unified what was left with all the force that was necessary. He never slaughtered anyone for the sake of slaughter. His armies just vanquished all that stood against them (why even stand against someone who offers you peace and prosperity?) More so, he didn't kill trillions of humans in the Great Crusade. He just gave his Primarchs permission to bring all human worlds back into the empire. As you could see in the HH series there were some Primarchs that valued life more than others and were more often searching to talk to the opponents than just smash trough them with everything they have. And I think all the accounts of the Imperator in battle were against Xenos, right? And even for Xenos. There was no absolute order that no Xenos shall exist. This came after his ascension to the throne. Even in the new rulebook it is stated that xenophobia was on his heights after the scouring. The Laeran were even considered to be a protecariat of the Empire before Fulgrim decided to attack them. We can say for sure that he had some issues. You can not give peace to a galaxy without breaking some things. But war was never fought just for it's own sake and I don't believe there is any written account of him ordering someone to eradicate helpless people or peacful aliens. It is not necessary to be a fan-boy of the Emperor to see that he wasn't a bad person. I think it's a phenomenon of our time that all heroes must have a dark side to appease everyone. So most of the people who say he was a homicidal maniac just want to see them so without any proof of it :lol: I hate to say "read the HH novels" but I'll say "read the HH novels". He is seen in several novels as murdering millions in his conquest of Earth. He is mentioned killing people on countless worlds by invading them in the Great Crusade. He is mentioned and seen killing anyone that had religious beliefs. If you read any of the HH novels it is blatantly apparent the Imperium's attitude about any xenos species is one of genocide. Even when the aliens are friendly they are still purged. Remember the kinebrach that the interex had? Friendly and helpful and had been at peace with a large human galactic empire for thousands of years. The Imperium's response? The interex must be destroyed and the aliens killed off because, gosh darn it, how dare those humans and xenos get along fine. So your assertion that he never ordered anyone innocent to die is simply not true. I honestly don't know how you or anyone else could read the HH novels and come away thinking "boy that Emperor sure was a nice and loving Santa Claus of a guy that never did anything wrong". The HH is showing the realistic application of the bigotry he had against religion and the outright genocide he had against aliens. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/6/#findComment-3130760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baynachew Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 He is seen in several novels as murdering millions in his conquest of Earth. He is mentioned killing people on countless worlds by invading them in the Great Crusade. He is mentioned and seen killing anyone that had religious beliefs. If you read any of the HH novels it is blatantly apparent the Imperium's attitude about any xenos species is one of genocide. Even when the aliens are friendly they are still purged. Remember the kinebrach that the interex had? Friendly and helpful and had been at peace with a large human galactic empire for thousands of years. The Imperium's response? The interex must be destroyed and the aliens killed off because, gosh darn it, how dare those humans and xenos get along fine. So your assertion that he never ordered anyone innocent to die is simply not true. I honestly don't know how you or anyone else could read the HH novels and come away thinking "boy that Emperor sure was a nice and loving Santa Claus of a guy that never did anything wrong". The HH is showing the realistic application of the bigotry he had against religion and the outright genocide he had against aliens. Agree in many ways with you Bulwyf. The Emperor, had in many ways charged his Legions, and Horus himself with the reunion of the civilisations of mankind. His presence known as the Anathema (see the First Heretic for example) is one of complete and utter abhorence of any form of religious action. Through out The First Heretic, and later on with both Know no fear and Abyss, the enmity between the Word Bearers and Ultramarines was caused because the Emperor had told the Ultramarines to bring the Word Bearers to heel, because they had started forming a proto-ecclesiarchal religion, that looked at raising the Emperor above his position and to make him a God. It wasn't really bigotry persay, it was more, the doctrine of the Empirium was that of uniting mankind after the Great Night. Imagine, thousands of worlds, cut off, because of unpassable Warp Storms, where humans who had settled were cut off from Terra, and also the fact that within Terra itself, there had been a great division between the different provinces. Eventually the Emperor rose to power, through brutal destruction through his warriors otherwise known as the Thunder Warriors (See The Outcast Dead). These warriors formed the first legions of Space Marines, who put him into place. He had essentially wiped out superstition, because he saw the dangers of it. What he sought was the capturing of pure humanity, and for those who understood it, had accepted it. Those who didn't were subjected to the Exterminatus Extremis. Eventually though, he left this mission to his sons while he worked on a better way of travelling through space without the warp (see Deliverance lost, and the Warp Gates) My Argument then, is that The Emperor was more concerned with science than he was concerned with a superstitious following. The Word Bearers weakness, was that they had sought to take the emperors name to all the systems, sowing the "word" of the Emperor. On hearing this, the Emperor got pissed, and sent the UM's after them. In terms then of looking at how this worked, between the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy, Where the Great Crusade was more concerned with uniting humanity and reading the universe of xenos, and xenos taint. HH was concerned with the matters of the internal Workings of the Imperium. therefore, in terms of looking at the Emperors actions and how he charged his son's with the works that he needed them to do, the legions operated on the orders of the Primarch's. Each operating on their specific way of dealing with them. In terms of Addressing the power armour issue; Stealth in theory is possible, according to the modifications of the Raven Guard, after the massacre at Isstvan V, they had to make a plan, in order to escape the traitor legions. They managed to adapt and change the armour to suit it. thus the Mark VI- Corvus armour, was created for this specific reason, after Corax visited the emperor, he recieved an large collection of these new armour types to help his Raptors. They moved quicker, it was lighter, and more versatile, perfect in Corax's mind for the purposes of causing havoc among the traitor lines. What happened though, was the distortion of the geneseed, which caused some of the new Ravens- Raptors to mutate and change. It was a brilliant, but brutal strategy that the Alpha legion used. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/6/#findComment-3130854 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Rolunde Posted July 24, 2012 Author Share Posted July 24, 2012 Hmm... well with regards to the Imperium and Xenos, at least in the 30th Millennium. Now I've only read the first 5 novels so far, so that is all I can go off for sure. But it seemed that in the case of the Interex the problem wasn't entirely that they were allied with xenos, as much as they were allied with xenos that were using Chaos. Granted things do get a bit sticky there as at that point the Astartes seem to generally know very little about Chaos, but Horus does indicate he has at least been giving some kind of basic teaching about it. So where maybe, Maybe the IoM would tolerate Tau and/or Eldar as long as they are willing to, well really it seems pretty much take on a subservient role towards Humanity, there wasn't a "kill on sight' order for all xenos. Orks being a clearly defined "hostile species" and also any of them that could be connected to Chaos. Now there is apparently a pretty hard line drawn on the sanctity of human genetic purity, as when the Word Bearers encounter humans that have trace xeno genes they do wipe them out. But at that point it also seems the WB have taken a "cleanse by fire" only approach to everything? In Flight of the Eisenstein, the reason given for wiping out the xenos there is they were looking to settle on planets claimed by the Imperium. So again, to me it seems there is maybe some allowance for xenos, but like an absolute "zero tolerance" level for them to in any way have some impact against humanity. Of course things get so messed up by the 40k that I expect at that point the entire Imperium is pretty much just working off a "shoot first, probably don't ask any questions ever" policy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/6/#findComment-3131198 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuclearship Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 There was no order to destroy the Interex, Horus even tried to negotiate with them...but hey, maybe the books I read were written from someone else ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/6/#findComment-3141015 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Yes, and his Legion thought he was doing the wrong thing by doing so. The Imperial policy on xenos is that they must be destroyed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/6/#findComment-3141083 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Not back then, though, was it? I thought there were a few alien states that were basically left alone during the Great Crusade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/6/#findComment-3141393 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 I suggest you reread the passage, and particularly focus on Abaddons reaction to Horus' suggestion that they negotiate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/6/#findComment-3141607 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Bear in mind that a Raptor is not an assault marine. Raptors are gnarly, mutated, warp-loving freaks whose armour and kit have gradualy become one with their bodies. Some chaos marines have armour that is more like hide than metal plates. Stealth would be far easier for someone who has become truly one with their armour. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/page/6/#findComment-3141653 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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