6th edition - assault, shooting and our Space Wolves

[Griz]

Hail brothers,

 

After giving a thorough read through of the new 6th edition and having played a few games (not too much of a basis to draw from yet but giving it the good ol' college try) I've come to the conclusions that there have been some good changes and some that I have to really disagree with,mainly due to my list composition and my style of play.

 

I've read through a few topics so far and on one hand I'm a little bit shocked and also not so surprised to see that not many seem overly concerned/bothered by the changes with the advent of 6th edition. What it all comes back to with our army lists are and what kind of style you run: balanced, assault oriented or a shooting preferred list. I, myself, have always favored and truly enjoyed an assault based list coupled with some shooting elements.

 

Now going off 5th as a point of reference, I believe C:SW to be more shooting/defensive-reactive army type. I always went against the grain with this and made more assault heavy lists. But herein lies my issue with 6th or perhaps the rest of my brothers can illuminate me: assault in general has really taken a blow. Overwatch, 2d6" range (which can be a bonus, or a major hindrance - will average around 7") 25pt frost weapon for only +1str and ap3, furious charge is now only +1 str. There is a long list of assault related items that have been changed (at least to me) so much so that it seems that assaulting seems less desirable and this edition is leaning more towards a big shooting game.

 

Anyone else agree or do I just see it differently?

[eyeslikethunder]

I agree that CC looks to have taken a bit a hit offensively. Hammer of wrath might help and the fact vehicles are easy to hit now but only time will tell. Flyers are also worry as when in zoom mode they can't be hit in CC.

[Vlk]

Well, my Grey Hunters really like to charge their enemies but now it just seems stupid to charge anything but vehicles and Tau with them. I'm not going to risk getting shot to bits after failing my random charge - and now take into account the impossibility of charging after disembarking from even a stationary vehicle... My Scouts are now never going to get to CC due to the new "no assaults from reserve" policy. Our Fast units, on the other hand, will probably be really deadly, fortunately I like to run a pack of Swiftclaws which is just going to get some new toys (meltabombs for everyone!).

[Griz]

Well, my Grey Hunters really like to charge their enemies but now it just seems stupid to charge anything but vehicles and Tau with them. I'm not going to risk getting shot to bits after failing my random charge - and now take into account the impossibility of charging after disembarking from even a stationary vehicle... My Scouts are now never going to get to CC due to the new "no assaults from reserve" policy. Our Fast units, on the other hand, will probably be really deadly, fortunately I like to run a pack of Swiftclaws which is just going to get some new toys (meltabombs for everyone!).

 

Well that's just exactly it - its a big risk to assault now and not so much a "big risk, big pay off". I'm not sold on the swiftclaws, that being said it is pretty much the only viable option with regards to how assaults are going with hammer of wrath hits and being at a higher T when eating shots from overwatch. Also, we're already at a flaw vs C:SM or any other marine codex with swiftclaws being at BS/WS 3 vs their bike squads counterparts.

[Vlk]

Sure, but 1) Swiftclaws are cheaper and should be kept cheaper (with my exception of meltabombs), 2) they are pretty much just extra wounds for ICs, especially my tooled-up Wolf Lord who really loves the idea of challenges and with 5, he doesn't even need SotB anymore and can become a Warrior born.

 

But Skyclaws and TWC, of course, are perfect alternatives.

[Stormbrow II]

5th ed was all about guns and 6th is probably moreso with snap fire and flyers being hit on 6's with normal shooting and Precision strikes for characters.

 

I'm looking more and more at WGPL with TDA, Cyclone, CombiPlas and Fist. He gets 4+ saves thanks to LO,S (on top of his armour/invul) and when he rolls a 6 to hit with his missiles he can allocate it to a particular guy. With vehicles largely becoming Monsters (HP = wounds) and infantry becoming better, big squads of GH backing him up with Long Fang support is one way to go, especially with the potential to put 33 point Terminators in each squad to soak up lots of shooting before he drops.

 

Wolf Priests also get a look in: add him to a unit of Fangs and pick Flyers as your target so you have re-rolls to hit when shooting them because every hit will count.

 

I've yet to go through most of the rest of the units, having played small sized games. I'd like to get to use Wolf Scouts with Plasma guns picking off fancy guys within units throught Focus Fire and moving to be just within 12" and packing everything onto the closest guys.

 

It'll take a while but new strategies will emerge. I'm looking forward to seeing how things change further.

 

5th ed was all about guns and 6th is probably moreso with snap fire and flyers being hit on 6's with normal shooting and Precision strikes for characters.

 

I'm looking more and more at WGPL with TDA, Cyclone, CombiPlas and Fist. He gets 4+ saves thanks to LO,S (on top of his armour/invul) and when he rolls a 6 to hit with his missiles he can allocate it to a particular guy. With vehicles largely becoming Monsters (HP = wounds) and infantry becoming better, big squads of GH backing him up with Long Fang support is one way to go, especially with the potential to put 33 point Terminators in each squad to soak up lots of shooting before he drops.

 

Wolf Priests also get a look in: add him to a unit of Fangs and pick Flyers as your target so you have re-rolls to hit when shooting them because every hit will count.

 

I've yet to go through most of the rest of the units, having played small sized games. I'd like to get to use Wolf Scouts with Plasma guns picking off fancy guys within units throught Focus Fire and moving to be just within 12" and packing everything onto the closest guys.

 

It'll take a while but new strategies will emerge. I'm looking forward to seeing how things change further.

[eyeslikethunder]

Swiftclaws have 6 attacks on the charge(HoW is additional attack?). thats pretty good for 25 pts

[Vlk]

Wolf Priest only enables the unit he is in to re-roll 1s to hit, doesn't he? Not hits in general.

[Vlk]

Swiftclaws have 6 attacks on the charge(HoW is additional attack?). thats pretty good for 25 pts

 

...could you please share your math with us? Am I missing something? Because I'm pretty sure that even with the HoW, they will only be getting 5 attacks on charge.

[eyeslikethunder]

Mistyped 5 attacks

Damn iPhone

 

 

Wp only rerolls 1's

 

 

Edit correcting iPhone autocorrect I curse it's name then taunts me further

[Stormbrow II]

Ah, yes: PE only allows 1's to hit and to wound to be re-rolled so it's not that good against Flyers (assuming we aren't allowed use Flakk in Long Fang units). Oh well: he'll be confined to declaring other things as his PE.

[guinness drinking dwarf]

Assault wise It may take me a few games to member that my TWC can no longer run and assault due to the fleet rules change. This I think will work out fine though with the movement of 12" and possible 12" assault with a +1A at I10. On a side fleet now makes an Ork Waaaagh that less scary.

[Griz]

Mistyped 5 attacks

Damn iPhone

 

 

Wp only rerolls 1's

 

 

Edit correcting iPhone autocorrect I curse it's name then taunts me further

 

Ok so one of those attacks is HoW so it'll auto hit at I10. However, that's for models only in base to base, provided you get the whole squad in base to base. Then the 4 attacks on the charge are at WS 3.. and now the PE is only reroll 1's ... not overly that advantageous when you consider overwatch and could possibly be at full BS. For 25pts a model with swiftclaws and/or skyclaws I'd rather just take an assault unit from an allies list (IF even at all.)

 

Assault wise It may take me a few games to member that my TWC can no longer run and assault due to the fleet rules change. This I think will work out fine though with the movement of 12" and possible 12" assault with a +1A at I10. On a side fleet now makes an Ork Waaaagh that less scary.

 

Ah yes, but now our TWC treat all difficult as dangerous - hope you don't roll a lot of ones lol.

[eyeslikethunder]

not overly that advantageous when you consider overwatch and could possibly be at full BS.

unlikely the power only the unit your with

 

 

most allied bikers have only 1 attack base and +1 on the charge and cost more if you want a hard core bike unit it's pretty much nob bikers

 

and jump packers need to give up their 12" to use MoW

 

I alway found the great strength of bikers is their speed. Space wolves lack a lot of faster elements and bikers give you that allowing you much greater board control and options.

[Exark]

Ah, yes: PE only allows 1's to hit and to wound to be re-rolled so it's not that good against Flyers (assuming we aren't allowed use Flakk in Long Fang units). Oh well: he'll be confined to declaring other things as his PE.

A Rune Priest taking Divination can rectify this, after my first time using the new psychic powers in 6th ed today, I'm ecstatic about the possibilities for RPs taking Divination. First of all, it's basic power gives you re-rolls to hit (and if you don't like one of his two rolls, you can take this, so it's guaranteed, think about it, twin-linked predators, long fangs? the RP became a significant force multiplier).

 

There are so many possibilities, so I agree with the OP's assessment that the Wolves are a defensive-reactive army.

 

With the Strategy traits, etc. We've a lot of possibilities I figure

 

Disclaimer: I'm not a seasoned Long Fang/Wolf Guard, I am a mere Grey Hunter/Blood Claw in experience.

[Valerian]

I'm looking more and more at WGPL with TDA, Cyclone, CombiPlas and Fist. He gets 4+ saves thanks to LO,S (on top of his armour/invul) and when he rolls a 6 to hit with his missiles he can allocate it to a particular guy.

 

You can't shoot the Cyclone and Combi-Plas at the same time, so just stick with a Storm Bolter for him. Use Combi-Plas for other Wolf Guard than the CML guy.

 

Valerian

[Stormbrow II]

You can't shoot the Cyclone and Combi-Plas at the same time, so just stick with a Storm Bolter for him. Use Combi-Plas for other Wolf Guard than the CML guy.

 

Valerian

Oh Lawdee, no.

 

The Kraks are fired every turn against most targets. The Plas is for killing Terminators and potentially characters before an assault.

[Wolfsbane]

A couple things to add:

 

Dangerous Terrain causes a wound, you get armor saves as well now. A TWC that takes a wound from dangerous terrain takes a wound.

 

Jump Infantry, bikes, and Cavalry all have hammer of wrath.

 

Preferred Enemy let's you reroll 1's to hit and wound. While not as good for melee, it is balanced to both aspects of the game. Sky Claws get to reroll 1's with their bolt pistols before they charge.

[Griz]

A couple things to add:

 

Dangerous Terrain causes a wound, you get armor saves as well now. A TWC that takes a wound from dangerous terrain takes a wound.

 

Jump Infantry, bikes, and Cavalry all have hammer of wrath.

 

Preferred Enemy let's you reroll 1's to hit and wound. While not as good for melee, it is balanced to both aspects of the game. Sky Claws get to reroll 1's with their bolt pistols before they charge.

 

Well seems like not to many agree with my OP. Will have to gear my list towards a shooting list if I want true viability in 6th edition. Unfortunate though *sigh*....

[hendrik]

think of it this way griz, it will only make your force a more realistic one and more balanced. in 5th assault armies (such as certain BA lists etc) were a real pain to face! in 5th assaulting units have finally recieved a blow and introduced a sense of realism to it imo. while your 5th edition army that only focussed on CC was enough in previous editions you'll now find your army lacking against a variety of opponents (and lists). you will need AT, you will need some decent CC abilities, especially with the new addition of challenges as will you need some AA. this requires a balanced list

[Griz]

think of it this way griz, it will only make your force a more realistic one and more balanced. in 5th assault armies (such as certain BA lists etc) were a real pain to face! in 5th assaulting units have finally recieved a blow and introduced a sense of realism to it imo. while your 5th edition army that only focussed on CC was enough in previous editions you'll now find your army lacking against a variety of opponents (and lists). you will need AT, you will need some decent CC abilities, especially with the new addition of challenges as will you need some AA. this requires a balanced list

 

Thank you Hendrik for offering some insight on a larger scale. I have been playing for 15 years now and I find myself with the foresight of a blood claw at times.

 

That being said I do agree with you 100% that 6th is going to force a great deal of list changes and having to be able to deal with more contingencies, I suppose as a player who really enjoyed and strove for CC it does feel a bit defeating though. But as the editions have come and gone no matter what style you played, we all felt a bit slighted at times I suppose.

[hendrik]

don't worry griz, i too longtime loved the thrills of CC, untill my gamingroup changes when the local gamingstore went banktrupt and we only started playing at our home. In my case this meant i now only face bloodangels and necrons. two very daunting oponents with their new dex (the bloodangels will outfight me, while the necrons will outshoot me, and often i don't know what army i'll be facing so). this has caused me to rely on my big guns more often recently, heck, 2 days ago was the first time i really managed to score a decent win against those pesky bloodangels! (2000pts game, he only managed to destroy my vindicator en landspeeder while i scored 2 objectives and annihilated his army to the last man). now with combat becoming even more deadly (that's right, combat has becomen more deadly for any model not armed like one of the grunts due to challenges,etc) shooting has increased in deadlyness in equivalent amounts, balancing the game more out. all in all 6th edition will mostly be known as a balanced edition (atleast i hope). sure we'll see powerfull builds, but now those powerfull builds will have atleast a dozen anathame counterbuilds for them.

[Griz]

Sure, but 1) Swiftclaws are cheaper and should be kept cheaper (with my exception of meltabombs)

 

Actually they're the same point cost? It's 90pts for 3 bikers (including the sergaent - so you're paying +15pts for his stat line). If you're doing the same with Swiftclaws and want a WGPL attached with a bike you're paying the base cost of a WG plus 35pts for the bike.

 

For example sake - take a straight 5 man bike unit from C:SM total we're at 140pts

 

Take the same size for Swiftclaws and a WGPL to match their sergaent we're at 156pts

 

These are both before any other upgrades are taken. Also keep in mind you have to take at least TWO other WG models in order to do this. So you've already spent another 36pts to attach that one WG to the swiftclaw pack.

[jmurph]

think of it this way griz, it will only make your force a more realistic one and more balanced. in 5th assault armies (such as certain BA lists etc) were a real pain to face! in 5th assaulting units have finally recieved a blow and introduced a sense of realism to it imo. while your 5th edition army that only focussed on CC was enough in previous editions you'll now find your army lacking against a variety of opponents (and lists). you will need AT, you will need some decent CC abilities, especially with the new addition of challenges as will you need some AA. this requires a balanced list

 

Thank you Hendrik for offering some insight on a larger scale. I have been playing for 15 years now and I find myself with the foresight of a blood claw at times.

 

That being said I do agree with you 100% that 6th is going to force a great deal of list changes and having to be able to deal with more contingencies, I suppose as a player who really enjoyed and strove for CC it does feel a bit defeating though. But as the editions have come and gone no matter what style you played, we all felt a bit slighted at times I suppose.

 

Doubt it. Necron/IG flyer spam look to be the new hotness and there aren't many ways to counter it. That's the problem with the current designs- there are many situations that have few answers, so players load up on that.

 

5th was more shooty than 4th thanks to changes like no consolidation into new combats. 6th is even more shooty with Overwatch, random charges, reduced cover saves, pulling models from the closest to shooter, no assault out of vehicles, etc. And good luck going after fliers! (PS, there is no unit with the option to upgrade to Flak missiles yet).

 

SWs aren't too bad since 3+ save largely mitigates Overwatch and reduced cover and transports getting very fragile isn't so bad. Plus, counter attack provides awesome synergy with overwatch, even if Acute Senses is kinda lame now. Las/Plas rbs are probably heading to the shelf, as are dreads once people realize how lame auto glance deaths are, but our core stuff is solid. CML Wg in GH squads are going to be LOL as they snipe out on a 6 to hit. Lone Wolfs will be horrific in combat thanks to challenges so he can ignore all the chumps and tear a leader up. Rune Priests have some of the best anti-psyker in the game.

[Vlk]

Sure, but 1) Swiftclaws are cheaper and should be kept cheaper (with my exception of meltabombs)

 

Actually they're the same point cost? It's 90pts for 3 bikers (including the sergaent - so you're paying +15pts for his stat line). If you're doing the same with Swiftclaws and want a WGPL attached with a bike you're paying the base cost of a WG plus 35pts for the bike.

 

For example sake - take a straight 5 man bike unit from C:SM total we're at 140pts

 

Take the same size for Swiftclaws and a WGPL to match their sergaent we're at 156pts

 

These are both before any other upgrades are taken. Also keep in mind you have to take at least TWO other WG models in order to do this. So you've already spent another 36pts to attach that one WG to the swiftclaw pack.

 

 

I never attach WGPL to my Swiftclaw packs. That would be horrendously overpriced. Of course the price difference is balanced with worse stats and the lack of a seargant to lead them but that's just fine, otherwise it would mean that Swifctlaws are too cheap. The point is that if we need wounds for a Wolf Lord, a highly mobile melta bombs delivery system or something that can catch and tie weaker enemies, we've got our bikers and we can buy them for a very reasonable price if we keep them cheap.