Have Terminators suddenly got ALLOT better?

[Valerian]

Here's one more to think about - the Apothecary upgrade for Paladins loses his ranged weaponry (Storm Bolter) for the upgrade. Now, however, he can toss a Krak Grenade (S6 AP4) every shooting phase, provided the enemy is within 8". That's pretty cool, too.

 

V

[shortysl]

You and me both Brother

 

GKT can now bring so much pain on any army list. Until we meet lots Plasma weapons. Then we're royally screwed.

 

Try a Stormraven on for size. They're Flyers now so the always start in Reserve but they're nigh on impossible to hit and can stow 6 Terminators in the hold. Bastions with quad guns can be a problem but in that case, take a Land Raider instead. See how well those Plasma Guns fare against AV14 rolling in on them.

 

With a little bit of thought, there's nothing we can't handle. If you have a Vindicare Assassin, he'll come in handy against Plasma Gunners, though he is a bit expensive for use as a grunt-killer.

[MTMK15]

Try a Stormraven on for size. They're Flyers now so the always start in Reserve but they're nigh on impossible to hit and can stow 6 Terminators in the hold. Bastions with quad guns can be a problem but in that case, take a Land Raider instead. See how well those Plasma Guns fare against AV14 rolling in on them.

 

With a little bit of thought, there's nothing we can't handle. If you have a Vindicare Assassin, he'll come in handy against Plasma Gunners, though he is a bit expensive for use as a grunt-killer.

 

my GKT list has 2 LRs and 22 Terminators in total at 2000 points. One of them is my GM and the other is my Libby. I think they're quite safe.

[shortysl]

Here's one more to think about - the Apothecary upgrade for Paladins loses his ranged weaponry (Storm Bolter) for the upgrade. Now, however, he can toss a Krak Grenade (S6 AP4) every shooting phase, provided the enemy is within 8". That's pretty cool, too.

 

V

 

This is pretty cool actually. Is it a standard Ballistic Skill roll? Can we throw Psyk-Out Grenades?

[Valerian]

Here's one more to think about - the Apothecary upgrade for Paladins loses his ranged weaponry (Storm Bolter) for the upgrade. Now, however, he can toss a Krak Grenade (S6 AP4) every shooting phase, provided the enemy is within 8". That's pretty cool, too.

 

V

 

This is pretty cool actually. Is it a standard Ballistic Skill roll? Can we throw Psyk-Out Grenades?

 

Yep, standard BS roll. Can't throw Psyk-Out Grenades, just Frag and Krak, and only Krak is really worth tossing.

 

V

[shortysl]

Here's one more to think about - the Apothecary upgrade for Paladins loses his ranged weaponry (Storm Bolter) for the upgrade. Now, however, he can toss a Krak Grenade (S6 AP4) every shooting phase, provided the enemy is within 8". That's pretty cool, too.

 

V

 

This is pretty cool actually. Is it a standard Ballistic Skill roll? Can we throw Psyk-Out Grenades?

 

Yep, standard BS roll. Can't throw Psyk-Out Grenades, just Frag and Krak, and only Krak is really worth tossing.

 

V

 

Very nice. If I remember correctly, can't we also use grenades against Walkers in close combat using standard Weapon Skill rolls too?

[Sothalor]

I don't have the new rulebook yet, so I thought I'd ask as I've been itching to make a Paladin Apothecary model.

 

In 5th edition a lot of folks felt the Apothecary wasn't worth the cost because anything that ignored an armor save didn't allow a FNP save. Has that changed? Some of the chatter I've seen appears to indicate that's the case. Feel No Pain is on a 5+ but the only thing that denies it is an attack that would cause Instant Death?

[shortysl]

I don't have the new rulebook yet, so I thought I'd ask as I've been itching to make a Paladin Apothecary model.

 

In 5th edition a lot of folks felt the Apothecary wasn't worth the cost because anything that ignored an armor save didn't allow a FNP save. Has that changed? Some of the chatter I've seen appears to indicate that's the case. Feel No Pain is on a 5+ but the only thing that denies it is an attack that would cause Instant Death?

 

Correct. Feel No Pain is 5+ but can be used against any attack that is not double the model's toughness or greater. It's worth noting that even if the wounded model is an Eternal Warrior, it still will not get a save against a double toughness attack, even though it does not cause Instant Death. Force Weapon attacks that cause Instant Death also ignore Feel No Pain.

[Sothalor]

I see, thanks!

 

I wonder if that makes the Apothecary more worth his points? With the exception of plasma, what else is typically AP 2 that isn't also Strength 8 or above? Nothing really comes to mind right now.

[shortysl]

I see, thanks!

 

I wonder if that makes the Apothecary more worth his points? With the exception of plasma, what else is typically AP 2 that isn't also Strength 8 or above? Nothing really comes to mind right now.

 

Any weapon with the Rending special rule, if it rolls a 6 to wound. Eldar Starcannons (possibly AP3 actually), Exitus Rifles/Pistols, Executioner Pistol, Animus Speculum, Neural Shredder, Needle Pistol (these are all found in Codex: Grey Knights however). Certain psychic powers have a variable AP value and some are just straight AP1 or 2 (like Smite and Warp Rift).

 

There are a fair few but even the ones listed above tend to be exotic or limited in number. That, or they're spread across a very small number of armies. I personally would always take the Apothecary, even if it meant I couldn't afford the Brotherhood Banner. The variety of attacks you get Feel No Pain against now is far greater than those that ignore it.

[confused_gordy]

It's worth noting that even if the wounded model is an Eternal Warrior, it still will not get a save against a double toughness attack, even though it does not cause Instant Death.

 

What makes you think this is the case? It is not stated in the instant death rule.

 

Feel no pain states that, 'rolls cannot be made against wounds that inflict instant death'.

 

However eternal warrior states that, 'a model with this rule is immune to the effects of instant death'. (as there are 2 effects of instant death, one being death, the other being a lack of feel no pain. using the plural here would seem to have to refer to eternal warrior allowing feel no pain rolls.)

 

If 'Feel No Pain rolls cannot be made against unsaved wounds that inflict instant death', is not an effect of instant death, I don't know what is.

[DarthOvious]

You and me both Brother

 

GKT can now bring so much pain on any army list. Until we meet lots Plasma weapons. Then we're royally screwed.

 

If you take an apothecary upgrade then not only do you get your 5++ save but you also get a feel no pain save because feel no pain can be taken vs plasma now. :tu: If you ask me I think the Apothecary upgrade looks pretty neat now. You also get it against power weapons as well, so even if you fail you 2+ armour save, you get a feel no pain after it as well.

[adamv6]

my GKT list has 2 LRs and 22 Terminators in total at 2000 points. One of them is my GM and the other is my Libby. I think they're quite safe

 

MTMK15, do you combat squad them?

 

You can only transport 12-16 of those models, so the others are either in reserve or footslogging.

 

BTW, your LRs won't last 3 turns against Necrons :tu:

[DarthOvious]

I see, thanks!

 

I wonder if that makes the Apothecary more worth his points? With the exception of plasma, what else is typically AP 2 that isn't also Strength 8 or above? Nothing really comes to mind right now.

 

It's more about the fact that it will be used more. If you fail your 2+ armour save then you will get it most of the time as well. Off the top of my head here is a short list of AP2 weapons or better.

 

1) Plasma Weapons of which there are a lot of

2) Smite

3) Necron Warscythes

4) Rending hits that aren't 2S (Psycannons and assault cannons)

[RedemptionNL]

And the new Power Axes, which I sense we'll see a reasonable amount of once people quit complaining that it's not as good as a power fist. :lol:

[DarthOvious]

And the new Power Axes, which I sense we'll see a reasonable amount of once people quit complaining that it's not as good as a power fist. :lol:

 

Not as good, no, but then you don't need to pay any extra points for it.

[RedemptionNL]

Aye, Power axes are pretty good. They usually about 15 points cheaper, and you get an extra attack with any other non-specalist weapon, which helps offset the lower Strength in a lot of cases. With 3 attacks with an axe versus 2 attacks with a powerfist against a T4 enemy, the axe actually does more damage.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Don't forget all plasma weapons :D none of them are S8, S7 only

[MTMK15]

If you take an apothecary upgrade then not only do you get your 5++ save but you also get a feel no pain save because feel no pain can be taken vs plasma now. If you ask me I think the Apothecary upgrade looks pretty neat now. You also get it against power weapons as well, so even if you fail you 2+ armour save, you get a feel no pain after it as well.

 

Everything is so tempting now. I'm considering both a Nemesis Warding Stave and the Narcethium

[MTMK15]

MTMK15, do you combat squad them?

 

You can only transport 12-16 of those models, so the others are either in reserve or footslogging.

 

BTW, your LRs won't last 3 turns against Necrons

 

2, 5 Men Termie squads in the LRs. Libby is with the LR. Mr Libby has his little friend, Teleport Homer and brings in 10 Paladins and a Grand Master to bring all the pain.

 

However, I am painfully aware of the Necron's heavy anti-armour. Something I can't really ignore but I'm just gonna hope IF I play Necrons. If not, I can just deepstrike down into them and attempt to make a mockery of them

[WhoaDirty]

my GKT list has 2 LRs and 22 Terminators in total at 2000 points. One of them is my GM and the other is my Libby. I think they're quite safe

 

MTMK15, do you combat squad them?

 

You can only transport 12-16 of those models, so the others are either in reserve or footslogging.

 

BTW, your LRs won't last 3 turns against Necrons :lol:

 

LRs won't need 3 turns when you move 18" a turn with Flat Out. :)

[mycnh]

You and me both Brother

 

GKT can now bring so much pain on any army list. Until we meet lots Plasma weapons. Then we're royally screwed.

Makes that dude w/ the plasma syphon more appealing

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Landraiders are still hell expensive, I'd rather just buy more Knights (boots on the ground is always a problem for us).

 

Power swords and axes are going to be everywhere now. I expect Chaos Terminators and Aspiring Champs to be rolling with axes now

[XaClocKWorKoX]

a modrak list is great against crons. using the new power sunburst nova or the shockwave attack. First into the fray NOVA power attack ( can not be deny cause it doesnt target anything it is an AOE affect ) Blind makes them BS1 or shockwave causes Pinning. happy trails then teleport homer and pyshic comm. the rest right into the fight and DAKKKKAAAA

[Reclusiarch Darius]

a modrak list is great against crons. using the new power sunburst nova or the shockwave attack. First into the fray NOVA power attack ( can not be deny cause it doesnt target anything it is an AOE affect ) Blind makes them BS1 or shockwave causes Pinning. happy trails then teleport homer and pyshic comm. the rest right into the fight and DAKKKKAAAA

 

Assuming you roll those powers. Assuming you trade (as you need either a Terminator Inquisitor or a Libby, and they're mutually exclusive, as Mordrak is eating your first HQ slot). It's also a massively expensive delivery. Sunburst has tiny range as well (6"), so good luck catching more than a single Necron unit with it.

 

For the same points, I'd rather just take regular Terminators who score