Load-outs for wolf guard

[skeletoro]

I've been thinking a little about the loadouts I give my wolf guard pack leaders, and made this little table that compares 2 offensive options (power sword, power fist) with or without 2 defensive options (storm shield, TDA). I figured it would be interesting to see how well various wolf guard options measure up in duels. For simplicity's sake, I've matched the wolf guard combinations against each other - I haven't compared to other armies. Thus, this table may be less illuminating if you're looking for a good option for fighting armies that differ a lot from space marines.

 

I assumed that the wolf guard have combi weapons (so no extra attack for the power armour sword guy - keep this in mind) and either charged or used counter-attack - each gets 3 attacks total. The table below takes initiative into account, so reflects the actual overall probability of each combatant killing the other. In case you're interested, when initiatives differ, simultaneous deaths are impossible so the chance of a stalemate is 1 minus the two probabilities presented. When combatants have the same initiative, mutual slaying probability is the two probabilities multiplied together; stalemate probability is 1 - the three other probabilities.

 

There are some interesting combinations that I've left out but could add in later. Personally I'd be keen to see what difference a bolt pistol makes, as well as see wolf claws, power axes, and frost swords/axes. The table would be getting a bit unwieldy at that point and I'll have to make an excel spreadsheet to calculate the values rather than calculating the values on a piece of paper and then typing them in by hand...

 

Another disclaimer: I may have made errors :)

 

I coded a cell where the row (left value) wins by .15 or more blue, and where the column (right value) wins by .15 or more red.

 

Hmm, I'm not sure the best way to share a table online (don't have office on the computer I'm sitting at). Hopefully you can access this google docs link Anyone know of a better way to share this? I don't see a table tool in the forum, but maybe I'm not looking hard enough ;) I'll probably upload an excel file when I get around to it....

 

A few conclusions:

1) WGPL /w power armour and power swords do have an edge over those with power fists. However, they don't do well vs. any other option.

2) power fists are generally very good, and better than power weapons IF the wielder has a storm shield or TDA.

3) Storm shields provide great all-round protection.

4) TDA makes you virtually invulnerable to power sword attacks (and storm shield termies are cheaper than storm shield PA WG!)

 

Rating each loadout for use in contexts similar to above:

Fist: OK in other respects, but very poor option for dueling.

Sword: a cheap option for killing fist characters. However, you will need to watch out for more dedicated duelers, for instance, with terminator armour and/or a storm shield - against all of whom you will do poorly. (sword + bolt pistol may do a little better, but expect it to still lose every duel apart from sword vs. fist. Similar for a lightning claw)

shield fist If you are determined to fit your WG PL in a razorback, this will certainly pack a punch. Prohibitively expensive, however.

shield sword crazy-defensive. You may see some stalemates (with you tending to lose, if the fight ever ends) if you duel characters with tough defenses themselves.

TDA fist This model will end fights, one way or the other, quickly. You've got a good shot at killing your foe but if they have a fist of their own plus a shield, your odds of survival are low. What makes this build good though, is that it doesn't sacrifice any shooting to achieve this. You can feel free to give this guy a combi-plasma, which fits right in with the GH playstyle.

TDA sword Nicely trumps non-shield PA guys, but not much else. It's cheap though - with a combi-weapon you're looking at only 38 pts.

TDA shield fist This build gets the job done. It is relatively survivable and packs a punch. However, it may be a less good fit for a GH squad than the PF TDA build, due to its lack of a ranged weapon.

TDA shield sword This build kills power armour guys a bit better than the other sword builds, but that's about it. Against any of the other options, the fight is fairly likely to last a few rounds.

 

All of the above assumes you're fighting other wolf guard or similar. When facing lower toughness/armour save/initiative foes, power swords (hell, power MAULS) will look MUCH better.

 

I also wanted to start a discussion about what the best load-outs for wolf guard terminator squads are since 6th. However, I need sleep so I'm just going to post the squad I am leaning towards, with little explanation, to hopefully spark a discussion...

 

5 terminators:

1x cyclone, storm bolter, wolf claw (for only 5 points more, wolf claws are far better than power swords, especially when a bolt pistol isn't an option)

1x combi-melta, power axe (power axes are a cheap way to kill terminators)

1x combi-melta, chain fist

2x combi-plasma, wolf claw

 

Thoughts?

[Khine]

Very nice comprehensive little theory test, Brother. Would love to see some of the other possible combos tried out too.

 

I am very interested to know how a Terminator, Storm Shield, [ Heavy Weapon or CombiGun], MoTW would fair.

[Howling]

I still don't quite see the reason for a Storm Shield when going for a dueling wolf guard.....at least not in TDA...

 

Most enemies that are going to be able to penetrate your 2+ armor save will be initiative 1....so they'll either strike at the same time as you or you'll strike before them.

Since only very few armies can take 2+ armor save guys as their champions I will try going with a TDA + Wolf Claw combination(Combi if need be?) for my Wolf Guard, that should pretty much end the duell against anything other than 2+ Armor enemies...

 

That's of course only for duels with champions vs champions.....but seriously...if you're fighting a hq with 2+ life ..points everything beside a powerfist to instant kill is kinda pushing your luck when your champion only has 1 life point....at least that's how I see it...

[skeletoro]

Hmm, some good points.

 

I've made an excel to calculate duel outcomes. You can enter relevant stats and see who will win (it assumes 1 wound and has various other limitations but is still pretty cool). It supports wolf claws and wolf standards (though it always assumes that you choose to reroll to hit).

 

I've started entering duel outcomes into the spreadsheet also but it will take a while to fill in all the cells.. ugh! Might have to make a macro or something...

 

Anyway, have a play around :tu:

 

Duel calculator

[skeletoro]

Ugh!

[Brother Captain Firelupus]

LOL,

 

Love the duel calculator.

 

:wacko:

[skeletoro]

Thanks! I'm a bit torn about what the best loadout really is though. Wolf claws are great against power armour. As long as we are fairly confident our WGPLs will very rarely go up against 2+ saves, then TDA + WC + Combi seems to be the best all-round combo to me. And not even too expensive :)

 

The problem is, as soon as they go up against TDA + unwieldy, they're pretty useless. That said, you can always choose to turn down duels.

 

WC + PF or WC + TH would be interesting. They're all specialist weapons so you get +1 attacks on either :) No ranged weapons though.

[Coverfire]

Why Power Axes over fists? they're the same cost for a lesser weapon (unless I have missed something)

[Khine]

Why Power Axes over fists? they're the same cost for a lesser weapon (unless I have missed something)

 

I think that the extra power axe attack gives it a higher chance of beating another WG Terminator.

 

Skeletoro, how many rounds of challenge is this for? is it just one or multiple?

[Lord Ragnarok]

Why Power Axes over fists? they're the same cost for a lesser weapon (unless I have missed something)

 

Power axes are not the same cost as a fist for WG.

 

Frost axes ARE the same cost as fist.

[d@n]

ss/th lone wolves are the space wolves ace up the sleeve for duels. i would rather put my points into them rather then loads of maxed out wolfguard pack leaders.

[jmurph]

TDA WG should probably stick to ranged + PW/WC for killing 3+ or worse. Stick combi-plasma or combi-melta (remember it insta gibs T4 and ignores FNP) in there to take out 2+ and vehicles. Use your squads to take shooting for 2+ save guys- don't count on killing them in duels since most lists that can take them do so in units of 5+, often with SS/TH.

 

Your main sources of 2+ is Codex:SM (us. SS/TH), Codex: DA (for the cyclones), and Codex:GH (may be paladins). It's almost guaranteed that there wil be one guy in these packing SS/Th making dueling a poor option. Pour plasma into them and let your TDA mop up PA.

[frostclaw222]

The thing to also remember is that, if the Wolf-Guard-are-always-characters interpretation is correct, then every 6 is a called shot with the plasma, and the entire pack of Wolf Guard (or the accompanying Grey Hunters or Blood Claws) can Look out, Sir! for them, allowing for some serious wound-migration.

 

So, this tells me two things: there's definitely cause to shoot the blazes out of a squad before charging, if there'll be something to charge after, just for the chance of plasma-sniping a power fist or axe. Also, there's a reason to have a storm shield in a Wolf Guard pack, so that unsavable wounds have a place where they're rendered savable.

[MalachiOfRuss]

I was thinking about this recently as well. Under 5th it was a no-brainer to take combi-melta and power fist on all the WGPL. Now if the opposing unit as a champion with a power weapon your WGPL can be "challenged out" of the combat pretty easily. I've since modified my list to try taking Power Weapon, Bolt Pistol, Meltabombs on the WGPL.

[skeletoro]

The thing to also remember is that, if the Wolf-Guard-are-always-characters interpretation is correct, then every 6 is a called shot with the plasma, and the entire pack of Wolf Guard (or the accompanying Grey Hunters or Blood Claws) can Look out, Sir! for them, allowing for some serious wound-migration.

 

So, this tells me two things: there's definitely cause to shoot the blazes out of a squad before charging, if there'll be something to charge after, just for the chance of plasma-sniping a power fist or axe. Also, there's a reason to have a storm shield in a Wolf Guard pack, so that unsavable wounds have a place where they're rendered savable.

 

Hmm, true. "Look out, sir!" is declared after rolling to wound but before armour saves, correct? Having one or two wolf guard with storm shields in the back line to step forward and intercept lascannon/melta/plasma shots may not be a bad idea at all. Assuming we're talking a primarily shooty wolf guard pack though, which loadout would complement the storm shield best?

 

Power sword / wolf claw (no ranged!)

Power/chain axe/fist or thunder hammer (no ranged!)

Storm bolter or Combi-weapon (no AP in melee!)

Combi-weapon and Mark of the Wulfen (very survivable, shooty and quite good in melee, but is a bit more pricey, especially when considering that this guy may die protecting his buddies before even getting into close combat!)

 

I'm leaning somewhat towards combi-plasma and storm shield for foot-sloggers. MOTW is definitely very tempting, but the model may not survive to use it.

 

Another option for relatively cheap ablative wounds is to take 1 or 2 models in power armour (perhaps combi-plasma + ccw to save on points) and sacrifice them vs. any plasma wounds, thus saving the 10-15 points investment in the TDA. Along the same lines, an IC with 2 cheap doggies sounds like a good investment (can the doggies sacrifice themselves for characters in the squad the IC is leading??)

[Russ Brother 92]

The thing to also remember is that, if the Wolf-Guard-are-always-characters interpretation is correct, then every 6 is a called shot with the plasma, and the entire pack of Wolf Guard (or the accompanying Grey Hunters or Blood Claws) can Look out, Sir! for them, allowing for some serious wound-migration.

 

So, this tells me two things: there's definitely cause to shoot the blazes out of a squad before charging, if there'll be something to charge after, just for the chance of plasma-sniping a power fist or axe. Also, there's a reason to have a storm shield in a Wolf Guard pack, so that unsavable wounds have a place where they're rendered savable.

 

Hmm, true. "Look out, sir!" is declared after rolling to wound but before armour saves, correct? Having one or two wolf guard with storm shields in the back line to step forward and intercept lascannon/melta/plasma shots may not be a bad idea at all. Assuming we're talking a primarily shooty wolf guard pack though, which loadout would complement the storm shield best?

 

 

One thing - what benefit would having two storm shields give you? surely having one plus some cc weapon is more suitable and doesn't lose anything, also if you're going to go for a guy with Wolf Claw and PW you may as well spend a little extra and buy the 2nd WC - at least you then benefit from being able to re-roll hits or wounds and getting your extra attack in cc for having two of the same weapon.

[Runesch]

Just spend 5 points more and get wolf claw + power fist, and use what benfits the situation with 1 extra attack, since they are both specialist weapons.

 

 

Rune

[euphemismo]

I think you have to go with 2 of the same specialist weapons to get the bonus attack.

[Valerian]

I think you have to go with 2 of the same specialist weapons to get the bonus attack.

 

Nope, doesn't say that anywhere (which is different than what you had to do in 5e). According to the new rules, there is no restriction on what specialist weapons they must be, only that there must be two of them to get the extra attack.

 

Valerian

[skeletoro]

One thing - what benefit would having two storm shields give you? surely having one plus some cc weapon is more suitable and doesn't lose anything, also if you're going to go for a guy with Wolf Claw and PW you may as well spend a little extra and buy the 2nd WC - at least you then benefit from being able to re-roll hits or wounds and getting your extra attack in cc for having two of the same weapon.

oops... I think what I said was a little ambiguous.

 

I wasn't suggesting 2 storm shields on the same guy... I was suggesting 1 or 2 guys in a pack with a shield each. Also, when I said wolf claw / power weapon I meant a storm shield plus either a wolf claw OR a power weapon. That list was a list of options to pair with a storm shield.

[Russ Brother 92]

ahh sorry about that brother - in that case I would personally go for the Wolf Claw, due to preffering to be able to at least re-roll my hits or wounds in cc, gives a better chance for minimal cost

 

also how do I get the dual calculator to work? I am able to edit it - thus in-putting stats for other units (in my case I commonly face necrons) but couldn't work out how to make it calculate (pretty terrible as I work with excel on a daily basis).

[Shadow warrior]

Greetings brothers,

 

I have a question, about preferred enemy and our wolf claws.

Can I re-roll the first d6 roll of one and if I fail again re-roll for the wolf claw?

I'm trying to figure out my Logan + WG with wolfclaws still works.

 

Can't find anything in the rulebook about it.

[Runesch]

Greetings brothers,

 

I have a question, about preferred enemy and our wolf claws.

Can I re-roll the first d6 roll of one and if I fail again re-roll for the wolf claw?

I'm trying to figure out my Logan + WG with wolfclaws still works.

 

Can't find anything in the rulebook about it.

 

Page 5, "and no single dice can be re-rolled more than once"

 

So no

 

See below

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

So instead, use the re-roll from the claw to hit and the preferred enemy re-roll to wound.

 

End of Line

[skeletoro]

ahh sorry about that brother - in that case I would personally go for the Wolf Claw, due to preffering to be able to at least re-roll my hits or wounds in cc, gives a better chance for minimal cost

 

also how do I get the dual calculator to work? I am able to edit it - thus in-putting stats for other units (in my case I commonly face necrons) but couldn't work out how to make it calculate (pretty terrible as I work with excel on a daily basis).

 

Yeah, I think wolf claws are definitely worth the 5 points over a power sword. The only sadface thing about it is that then you have a squad member without a ranged attack. I don't think this would be the best match for a primarily shooty wolf guard squad - in which case I'd go for the shield + combi plasma and perhaps with an added MOTW on top.

 

The excel should work if you set the values for Combatant A and Combatant B in the top left (that's cells B3:C12). The results should automatically show up in cells B16:19. This is all on sheet 1. Sheets 2-4 are just for calculations (this mostly uses a probability tree method; pretty unsophisticated I know but hey)

 

The Saved profiles and Saved combat outcomes are just cells I've put aside for keeping records - they don't feature in any functions or contain any functions themselves.