Justicar Thawn...

[L30n1d4s]

Before the jump, he was already a pretty decent upgrade for a GK Terminator Squad (albeit slightly pricy points-wise), but since the new rules are out, he is truly a good deal. Let's look at why.

 

First, what does he bring to the fight? He is a character (so can do challenges), has standard TDA armor, frag/krak/psy-out grenades, SB, and a Nemesis Force Halberd (so I6). He also has WS5, but otherwise has the stats of a normal Justicar. His special rules are what truly bring value.

 

-The Aegis and Preferred Enemy (DAEMONS)- Nothing special here, normal -1 to enemy Ld when targeting Thawn/his squad with a Psychic power and re-roll 1s for attacks against Daemons.

 

-Fearless - Aahhh, here it gets interesting. In 5th edition, characters did not pass on Fearless to their squad if they were the only ones with the rule. Also, fearless had some serious drawbacks, mainly when losing in close combat. In 6th edition, this has changed. As long as a single model in the unit has Fearless, the whole unit gets that USR. Additionally, there really are no serious drawbacks to it now... basically, it just makes you immune to the Fear USR, makes you unable to Go to Ground, and makes the unit auto-pass pinning, regroup, and morale checks. So, Thawn not only makes his squad Fearless, but overall it is a very positive benefit.

 

-I Shall Not Yield - Basically make Thawn "immortal and never give up KPs," as long as he gets resurrected before the game ends. A potent combat (and psychological) capability for a character who counts as a Troop choice and can hold objectives.

 

-Psychic Mastery Level (2) - Not only does this allow his squad to use Hammerhand and their Force Weapons on the same turn, but perhaps even more importantly, it increases the squad Deny the Witch ability. All GKs naturally count as Psychic Master Level (1), meaning that they Deny the Witch on a 5+ vs the normal 6+. Since Thawn bumps that up to Psychic Mastery Level (2), that "trumps" any attacks from psykers with Psychic Mastery Level (1), making the Deny the Witch roll a 4+, which can make a very big difference. Since most basic Psykers are Mastery Level (1) (unless the upgrade to Codicier/Master of Runes, etc.) this means most enemy powers targeting his squad will have to get through the Aegis -1 Ld (-4 if a GK Dread is near) and his 4+ Deny the Witch roll.

 

So, overall, Thawn got measurably better in 6th and would be a solid choice for anyone picking a GK Terminator quad as one of his Troop choices.

[Gentlemanloser]

Nice catch on fearless!

 

What changed about the PML that lets the 'squad' use two powers?

 

As far as I can tell, nohing about 6th changed the fact that BoP limits you to a single power, and that Thawn can only use his PML 2 when he's his own, solo, unit.

[Abaddonshand]

One thing worth noting is we don't need fearless to avoid the fear rule. All ATSKNF models don't suffer from fear IIRC. It really wouldn't due to have paladins (or any GK) actually afraid of daemons now, would it?

[Valerian]

One thing worth noting is we don't need fearless to avoid the fear rule. All ATSKNF models don't suffer from fear IIRC. It really wouldn't due to have paladins (or any GK) actually afraid of daemons now, would it? ;)

 

True, but Fearless now is a lot better, as you won't have to take any of the Morale checks. With Challenges alone, Thawn just got a whole lot better. Never really considered him before, but am going to definitely look into that now.

 

I think we'll have to do some research again on whether he/his squad can cast 2 powers per turn. With his PML2 I don't really see how you can justify that he couldn't but I know it was argued before. Have to see if new subtle rules in the BGB actually make a difference.

 

Valerian

[Gentlemanloser]

I suppose it depends on the wording of Brotherhood of Psykers, which is now in the BRB.

[confused_gordy]

ATSKNF also got a general boost in that, there is no regroup restriction on being within 6 of an enemy unit any more. making it very very viable.

[bob sprocket]

What about the fact that Thawn doesn't have the Brotherhood of Psykers rule? And therefore, probably isn't bound by it.

 

This is a big question. Imho it's the difference between Thawn being very bad (for points effectiveness) or a very good choice.

[Gentlemanloser]

Well, if Thawn isn't bound by BoP, he gets to use his 2PML even when part of his unit. The flip side is that the Unit now no longer has a live or dead Justicar, and can no longer use any Powers.

 

Thawn isn't an IC, but an UC, part of said unit. What does the new 6th BRB say on sharing of special rules? Either the Squad confers BoP to Thawn, and he's bound by it. Or the Squad loses BoP, and you're back to only Thawn being able to use Powers/Activate Force Weapon.

 

Thawn is listed as not having BoP, as it would make little sense for him to have it when he ressurects and become a single mini unit in his own right.

[Spartans]

The flip side is that the Unit now no longer has a live or dead Justicar, and can no longer use any Powers.

 

Not true the codex says "A Grey Knight Unit can use one psychic power each turn" it then goes on to say regarding perils of the warp and how it effects the unit if the Justicar or Knight of the Flame is dead "or against a random non-character model in the squad"

 

What this means is that the powers all go via a Justicar or Knight of the FLame first but if he is dead they can still use there power and it goes via a random model in the squad.

[Gentlemanloser]

You might want to quote it a little more fully. ;)

 

What leadership does the unit use to make the test?

 

The Justicar if he's alive, or the unit if he's dead.

 

That specific unit doesn't have a Justicar, alive or dead, if Thawn isn't bound by BoP.

 

So what Leadership is used to make the Psychic Test?

[Toasterfree]

the squads.....

[Gentlemanloser]

Nope. You only use the Squads if thier Justicar is dead.

 

Thawn is still alive. :lol:

[Elric the Silvercoat]

Nope. You only use the Squads if thier Justicar is dead.

 

Thawn is still alive. :lol:

Last I checked they were both 9 so it doesn't matter.

[Gentlemanloser]

It's not about the value thought.

 

There's no applicable stat to allow a Psychic Test.

 

You can only use the Squads Leadership if thier Justicar is dead. Justicar Thawn is alive and well in the unit, so that's out. And if Thawn *isn't* covered by BoP, you can't use his for the BoP test either.

 

That's the issue. :lol:

 

If Thawn isn't bound by BoP, the unit *cannot* make any Psychic Tests. Until he dies of course.

[painkiller]

@Gentlemanloser: You wouldn't be a lawyer in real life, would you? :D

 

I seem to recognize the train of thought ;)

 

Anyways, although I can follow you on the matter at hand, I do not agree for two reasons alone:

 

1. In my view, it is far too complex an angle on the issue for it to be the realised intent of GW.

 

2. It doesn't fit the game or the playstyle of 40K to interpret rules so narrowly.

 

The above only expresses my personal views on the matter.

 

Brgds,

 

Painkiller

[Gentlemanloser]

Nah, not a lawer, but it's been suggested to me before! lol!

 

Well, I'm only throwing this up for the folk who insist that Thawn can use his PML in addition to the Squads BoP. Which while I'm sure isn't RAW, isn't RAI either.

 

GW dropped the ball on explaining Mordrak and Thawn, and the "they were designed for 6th" stance doesn't fix these issues either.

 

Personally, the RAI (which I feel is supported by RAW) is that while Mordrak and Thawn are an upgrade charcater part of thier own squad, they are bound by, and use the Squads BoP rule.

 

When either are found on thier own, and are a single mini unit in thier own right, they don't have, or use BoP (which would make no sense, and be utterly redundant), but operate using thier innate PML.

 

As for Thawn being PML2. Well, his psychic prowess is being dampened by being the conduit for his entire squads pyschic might. :(

[boreas]

GL: Here's the way I see it. The GK unit has brotherhood of psyker. As such, it can use 1 psychic power each turn. If Thawn is alive, the unit uses his Ld (Even if he's not in the unit anymore! It's Ld 9 anyways). If Thawn is dead they use their own Ld.

 

As for Thawn, I don't see why he'd be subjected to BoP, since he doesn't have the rule. So just like an IC that has joined the squad, he can cast his own powers. That's how I read the RAW.

 

Now, as for RAI, I think GW meant for Thawn to bring a second power per turn (not two more). As such, Thawn should be FAQed...

 

Phil

[Gentlemanloser]

Boreas, thing is, he's not an IC, and the BoP rule state the *unit*.

 

Is Thawn a part of the unit? If so, he's bound by BoP.

[boreas]

But if an IC joins a unit, he's also part of the unit. That why I can target that unit and still hit the IC. Or move that entire unit (including the SC) in a transport. Hence IC giving their fearless to the unit. But whereas the Fearless USR specfies "the character and a unit he joins" IIRC, nowhere in the BoP rule is there wording that would imply transferred USR. That's why IC (or characters wihtout the BoP rule) can use their own Psychic powers independantly, even if part of the unit.

 

Thus:

 

-A Termi *unit* with a GKGM can use 1 power (the termi unit's, with BoP) and the GKGM can still use his own (he's not bound by BoP)

 

-A termi *unit* w/ Thawn can use 1 power (the termi unit's, with BoP) and Thawn can still use his 2 powers (he's not bound by BoP).

 

The fact that a model is an IC or UC doesn't change anything, as I read it. A model either is, or is not, bound by BoP.

 

Phil