Death Cult Assassins and PWs

[L30n1d4s]

So, in the codex, DCA are armed with "two power weapons", type unspecified. What that tells me is that you can model each DCA with a combo of two different power weapons to make them much more versatile. Since none of the PWs are "Specialist Weapons," you can mix and match and still always get +1a, no matter which one you declare you are using in a given turn.

 

Some examples:

 

1 - One power sword and one power axe... can strike using the power sword at S4, AP 3, I6 (best against MEQs or worse, when you want to keep that high initiative value) OR can choose to use the axe and strike at S5, AP2, I1 (best against tougher, better armored units), based on who you are fighting.

 

2 - One power sword and one power maul... can strike at S4, AP 3, I6 (using sword) OR can choose to use the maul and strike at S6, AP4, I6, with "Concussive" rule (Power Maul is better against vehicles and/or against units with a 4+ Armor Save or worse than the Power Sword is).

 

3 - One power axe and one power maul... can use axe to strike at S5, AP2, I1 (best against heavily armored infantry, like Terminators) or can choose to use the maul and strike at S6, AP4, I6, with Concussive rule (again, maul is better against vehicles and/or against units with a 4+ Armor Save).

 

 

Anyway, just a little bonus that 6th edition has added to the GK codex. Makes DCA even better than before, which, arguably, pound for pound, they were already competing to be one of the most point efficient units in the entire game.

[thade]

Anyway, just a little bonus that 6th edition has added to the GK codex. Makes DCA even better than before, which, arguably, pound for pound, they were already competing to be one of the most point efficient units in the entire game.

Part of the reason for this was that they could literally kill anything they encountered in melee, effortlessly. That is no longer the case, now that they're AP3...terminators can stand up against them. They'll still overwhelm them with attacks, but 2+ is far better than 5++.

 

Nevertheless, this is an interesting point. :P Good find.

[DutchSage]

Anyway, just a little bonus that 6th edition has added to the GK codex. Makes DCA even better than before, which, arguably, pound for pound, they were already competing to be one of the most point efficient units in the entire game.

 

With overwatch guaranteeing a free shot (even at BS1) for most infantry and templates doing D3 hits they also took a decent hit in the getting into combat part. Not to mention the problem Fear can give our Ld 8 assassins. Add to that no grenades, no assaulting out of a vehicle (even if it was stationary) and challenges I can see assassins taking a backseat.

[Raus]

In my view, the rules tells us to use the type the official model uses. In this case swords. At least, that's my interpretation.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Overwatch isn't going to be a problem usually, its only on 6's, and template weapons aren't exactly common.

 

For power weapon combos, I like the power sword and power axe combo. You're not gunning for light infantry (4+ armour), you are going to be murdering Terminators and Marines. Terminators typically go at I1 (powerfists and thunder hammers are now clutch weapons, as they deny all armour), so swinging with the axe is a better bet. Against Marines and everyone else, S4 (S5 with 'Hammerhand' from a friendly IC) at high Initiative is very handy.

[thade]

In my view, the rules tells us to use the type the official model uses. In this case swords. At least, that's my interpretation.

That's fair enough and may fly with your local gaming group...however the rules-as-written say "power weapon" and the BGB tells us what those are: they can be anything we want them to be. Keep in mind that 40K is foremost a game of modeling (both the selling of models and the piecing together of models) and, honestly, much of the fun comes out of cool conversions. It's good to make your model unique so it stands out from the crowd (yet is still recognizeable for what it is). I have fielded Telion and Calgar both...and I have converted models to represent both. I am in no way an exception. :D Check out the Hall of Honor painting board here on the B&C.

 

And now your conversions actually get to mean something, as it says "power weapon" and now means "axe, sword, stave, or lance: your choice, same cost, different attributes". A very nice move on their part, I feel.

[thade]

Overwatch isn't going to be a problem usually, its only on 6's, and template weapons aren't exactly common.

You know, I've only seen a few games so far, but based on them alone I disagree with you. People were already musing about how the d3 guaranteed hits were a slight buff to flamers...and one member said he tried to solo-charge Celestine into packs of marines four times...and she got shot out of the sky all four times by Overwatch.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

You know, I've only seen a few games so far, but based on them alone I disagree with you. People were already musing about how the d3 guaranteed hits were a slight buff to flamers...and one member said he tried to solo-charge Celestine into packs of marines four times...and she got shot out of the sky all four times by Overwatch.

 

Play more games. If 6's came up as common as we liked, no one would take anything but assault cannons ;) . Sure, some matches, your opponent will roll like a god and your charge will get cut down before they connect. Other matches, he can't hit at all and you get to hit at full strength. It is designed to act as a deterrent to small units or lone models carving through squads at will. Now, there is a slight (and with the Divination psychic table, possibly a very strong) disincentive to not charge certain units.

 

Its rather like the new 2D6 charge ranges on everything. On average, people are getting higher charges off, but you can still stumble (had it happen the other day, opponent rolled snake eyes and he only needed 3" to get BTB).

[Cmdr Shepard]

In my view, the rules tells us to use the type the official model uses. In this case swords. At least, that's my interpretation.

I had the same idea. However I encoutered a great number of "contrary opionions" in the Sister of Battle forums. It is a very long discussion and I'd have the time to quote it right now. (you may look that forum, if you are curious, it's the topic about allies)

 

Anyway the controversy is the product of the rule text.

If the rule would have stated: "If your model can be equiped with a generic power weapon you may choose among the following: power sword, power axe etc.." there would have been no issue. You give them the power weapon you desire.

However since the rule say to "look at the model" you have to consider the official model, if existing, as parameter.

Custom modification of a model should have no impact on rules, unless other rules state the contrary. Do you remember the "you ignore the rocks glued on your base because you cannot bring cover with you"? ;)

So Space Wolves have axes in their official kit, thus the may take power axes if the codex says a unit can take power weapon;

Librarian models coming with the Axe, have a Force Axe. etc.

Beside fair play demands to reduce the players discretion about game mechanics and give a different weapon to a model alter the game mechanics, becuase it alter the orginal model; thus the way GW wanted the model to function.

 

Anyway I see no usefullness in giving DCA I1 weapons. They may attack TDA at the same I order but they can barely survive (if TDA have storm shileds they are doom).

10 Tactical Terminators will deliver 20 S4 BS1 overwatch shots+ the possible ML who can fire at the same time of storm bolt for 2 additional S8 shots.

 

If the TDA player is smart he will keep a dsitance > 12" shooting with their bolters until DCA are reduced in number. Remember you cannot assault if your transport moved more than 6" regardless it's type.

20 BS4 S4 shots mean: nearly 6 dead DCA in a single turn (plus the 2 AoE or S8 Cyclone attacks)

If DCA manage to assault in the following turn there will be very few of them.

 

I think DCA are not as powerful as they were in 5th edition

[Stormshadow]

This can become rely tricky and ridiculous.

There are two models out with DCA, one with two swords and one with one sword, but they both have two power weapons. I if you are now only allowed to use these models they will naturally have power swords. But if you want to ad that extra Power weapon to the model with only one sword, are you now not allowed to add an axe?

 

There is no model that I know of for the Ordos Xenos Inquisitor. Does that mean that he cannot be played or that he can have any type of power weapon he likes? There are three types of Ordo Malleus Inquisitors, all with swords, but no model in terminator armor. Does that mean that an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor is incapable of having an Axe, if not in terminator armor?

 

I rely hope that GW will release an official statement declaring that “If your opponents model is using a Power weapon, have a look at the model to see what type it is.”

[RedemptionNL]

There is no model that I know of for the Ordos Xenos Inquisitor. Does that mean that he cannot be played or that he can have any type of power weapon he likes? There are three types of Ordo Malleus Inquisitors, all with swords, but no model in terminator armor. Does that mean that an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor is incapable of having an Axe, if not in terminator armor?

 

The 3 generic Inquisitors specifically use power swords, not power weapons, so no issue there at least.

[Cmdr Shepard]

There is no model that I know of for the Ordos Xenos Inquisitor. Does that mean that he cannot be played or that he can have any type of power weapon he likes? There are three types of Ordo Malleus Inquisitors, all with swords, but no model in terminator armor. Does that mean that an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor is incapable of having an Axe, if not in terminator armor?

You are talking about a different thing.

One thing is having an option for a gear and not having an official. In that case you may can make the model ;), another is to not having an option, DCA have default weapons, but having an official model.

 

As I wrote above if GW would have said: "If your model is equiped with power weapon you may choose: Power sowrd, power axe etc" there would have never been an issue.

Honestly I don't understand why they didn't write the rule in such way.

Space Wolves Codex and FAQ are better: they mention frost swords and axes with the relevant stats.

 

By the way, are you sure you DCA need power axes? ;) They will struggle against TDA anyway (see my previous post) . GK have better stuff to place on the battlefield, in my opinion.

[RedemptionNL]

The Codex: Space Marine FAQ even goes as far as saying that all entries of 'Power Sword' in the bestiary and army list should be replaced with 'Power Weapon', which seems to indicate they want to give you a choice.

[Stormshadow]

By the way, are you sure you DCA need power axes? ;) They will struggle against TDA anyway (see my previous post) . GK have better stuff to place on the battlefield, in my opinion.

 

No. ;)

 

I want to give the axes to my Crusaders. They almost always strike last any way, and they rely need the Strength bonus. :D

[breng77]

The reign of DCA is over IMO, certainly as cheap counter assault. Mostly for reasons mentioned here. The drop to ap3 hurts a bit, overwatch does as well, as does the requirement now to run them in a raven or raider to be good at all, the random charge range (if you miss a charge you die). As for the thought that overwatch is not a big deal, 10 marines should reliably kill 2, so you need a bigger squad than before, and probably want crusaders leading the charge to take the overwatch shots. They are not horrible now, just not the kings of counter assault they used to be.

[thade]

They are still super super effective. AP3 is not terrible, really. DCA will still wholesale slaughter space marines in melee. Recall you can put them in mixed units too...maybe sticking them behind Crusaders? :D

[breng77]

Exactly you will need to mismatch more and the need to put them in an assault vehicle hurts a lot especially for sisters players, as it adds a minimum of 205 points to the cost of the unit. But they won't be used nearly as much.

[Raider]

Great find L30n1d4s !

 

Transport: I just realized that a properly equipped Stormraven is actually pretty good on his own as a Gunboat. (I`ll put up a thread about the configuration later.) So theres no big drawback when you get one for your DCA.

 

 

Overwatch: Overwatch is indeed almost irrelevant as you can add lots of cheap ablative wounds to DCA. Join Coteaz to the unit! You likely got him anyways and his 2+ save with 3 wounds is quite a good catcher for Bolterfire. Since you charge, you can easily put him up front. Plasma and the like will come in low numbers, so in thouse cases you can shield Coteaz with a single Crusader and use Look out Sir should anything go through. (2 Plasmaguns in rapidfire is 4 shots, 1/6 hits, below 1/3 to kill Crusader, 1/6 to fail Look out Sir = not often)

 

Terminators: Lets take TH/SS Terminators. DCA got 4 attacks, 2/3 to hit, 2/3 to wound (+1 Strength with Axes), 1/3 to kill. Both strike at Ini1.

 

Each DCA averages 0,6 kills. With the addition of Hammerhand (5/6 to wound) 6 DCA kill ~4,5 Terminators on average!!!

 

 

Terminators striking back: 2 Attacks, 1/2 hit, 5/6 wound, 2/3 kill. Each Termi averages 0,6 kills when DCA are closest.

 

But of course we put Crusaders in the first row.^^ 5 Terminators kill ~ 1,4 Crusaders

 

 

Conclusion: Overall Death Cults with the option for AP2 are rediculously good. People will cry cheese louder then ever.

 

6 DCA + 2 Crusaders + Coteaz might be something to start with :)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Even better, add in a Terminator Inquisitor with a psycannon+hammer and the new Divination 'Prescience' power. Re-rolls to hit, and a Relentless psycannon for opening up transports. Coteaz is a more backfield player, as he has two powers to roll for.

[GOFADK]

Even better, add in a Terminator Inquisitor with a psycannon+hammer and the new Divination 'Prescience' power. Re-rolls to hit, and a Relentless psycannon for opening up transports. Coteaz is a more backfield player, as he has two powers to roll for.

Yes that would be nice, but only got 1/6 chance to get Prescience when you roll on the chart

[RedemptionNL]

It's the Primaris power, so you can always switch to it.

[GOFADK]

It's the Primaris power, so you can always switch to it.

Dooh :D