Okay. Flyers. How do we deal with 'em?

[thade]

Right, so...I once bought an Aegis Defense Line kit...and kit bashed it to build a Rifleman Dreadnought. I staunchly refuse to buy any more at this time. ;) That goes for the other fortifications, and I'd like to not buy flyers.

 

Soooo....when I first saw Flakk missiles I thought two things:

1. Ug, what a dumb name. Merged the two existing names, so unimaginative.
   
2. Oh, cool. I've run ML Devs for years now; they will be super effective!
   

But, yea...I don't think they get flakk missiles. :(

 

Do marines have any weapons with the Skyfire rule? Will I always be Snap Firing at these things while they strafe me to oblivion?

 

I haven't engaged any on the table yet (in fact I didn't play today at all, I just advised on rules for two games) but another player from another table today was gleeful at how effective his two flyers were. They did a ton of damage and seemed indestructible. Now, to be fair, I don't know what his opponent was fielding (maybe it was a DoA list or something) but it did not inspire confidence.

 

Well, enough QQing from me. Who's seen these things? Who's killed them? How do we kill them? :(

 

EDIT: dammit, I'm totally sorry. I meant to post this in TA. Please feel free to kick it over there. And kick me too. :(

[Seahawk]

No Flakk missiles are available to anyone...yet.

 

SM have the Stormtalon, but that's it. The only current option is that or Aegis Quad Gun or Bastion Icarus lascannon.

 

That'll teach you to go the cheap and blegh-looking route for flakka dreads! B).

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

If I'm interpreting my FAQ's, at tleast the Space Wolf one correctly, we use the updated missile launcher rules found in the reference pages of the rulebook, so fun for all your missile launcher Long Fang friends, who also get better Split Fire.

[Grey Mage]

Ill do it with my wolves the same as I will with my eldar- Ill get an aegis defense line on the field with a quad gun.

 

Its perfectly serviceable, gives me some guaranteed cover for my heavy weapon teams, and looks good to boot. Shouldnt be seein to many flyers right off the bat that it cant deal with, and at 4 shots I can go for hull point kills quickly and move on to the next one as needs be.

 

NOTE: Twin linked is still twin linked. So Preds and Dreds and Landraiders are all good AA firepower for the time being with S9 and +1 to the damage table from AP 2. Id use those as a good supplement to your normal AA firepower for most armies... Baal preds might be even better with the assault cannon vs alot of them *being AV 10*.

 

And of course theres psychic powers that can give you access to skyfire and rerolls to hit, both of wich will help get the job done.

[confused_gordy]

Or you could hope they have brought way too many flyers, and remove their ground army turn 1 (auto winning the game).

 

Also you can neuter a lot of them, by simply being between 6 and 12 inches away from them (in-front), as if they don't have hover mode they will have to fly over you, making you basically not target-able, and if they do have it, they will have to stop zooming to engage you.

 

a twin linked assault cannon also averages 1.2222222 hits against a zooming flyer, so occasionally you might get lucky with those (although with only st6 its unlikely).

[Cmdr Shepard]

Or you could hope they have brought way too many flyers, and remove their ground army turn 1 (auto winning the game).

 

Also you can neuter a lot of them, by simply being between 6 and 12 inches away from them (in-front), as if they don't have hover mode they will have to fly over you, making you basically not target-able, and if they do have it, they will have to stop zooming to engage you.

 

a twin linked assault cannon also averages 1.2222222 hits against a zooming flyer, so occasionally you might get lucky with those (although with only st6 its unlikely).

You auto win by removing ground army only starting from turn 2 :)

[DarkGuard]

As others have said twin-linked weapons should be OK, I may be having to put my Rifleman Dread back in at this rate!

 

The Aegis line looks to be a solid choice, but will be quite pricy with the quad-gun.

 

Another way, if you're one of those heathen traitorous Marines :) could be to ally in a tesla barge from the Necron Codex, it's twin-linked and every roll to hit will be a 6, which grants 2 more hits.

 

And of course, there are our own flyers, the Stormtalon with a skyhammer could be a very good choice with the hull point system.

[Cmdr Shepard]

As others have said twin-linked weapons should be OK, I may be having to put my Rifleman Dread back in at this rate!

 

The Aegis line looks to be a solid choice, but will be quite pricy with the quad-gun.

 

Another way, if you're one of those heathen traitorous Marines :) could be to ally in a tesla barge from the Necron Codex, it's twin-linked and every roll to hit will be a 6, which grants 2 more hits.

 

And of course, there are our own flyers, the Stormtalon with a skyhammer could be a very good choice with the hull point system.

 

I had the same idea bout Necron.

 

Hey DarkGuard, since you are a moderator I have a question for you about allies.

I wrote a list GK+Necron (may count as Adeptus Mechanicus) can I post it in the army lists forums? It seems the forum policies allow it but I want to be sure. Thanks :)

 

EDIT: removed typing error

[Captain Idaho]

I was contemplating this very same issue. I ideally wanted to keep my Ultramarines as a pure ground force, but now I guess I'll have to get the Quadd gun Aegis Defense Line. A birdy tells me it's the price of a Thunderfire, which means my 20 Tactical squads on the groud (without Transports) can dig in against opponents.

 

I hear the Interceptor rule will mean you could potentially shoot down every flier as it comes on the table!

 

******

 

Anyway, let's evaluate the exact threat from Fliers in this edition. How many armies have them and in what sort of numbers and roles?

 

On the whole we won't see any more than three Fliers in a single 1500-1750pts army due to Force Organisation limitations. In the case of Orks, this could be a regular thing, though Warbikers might become more popular going forward. Marines; I reckon even less. Who is going to take a trio of Stormtalons when you still want Typhoons and Attack Bikes?

 

Our Blood Angels and Grey Knight brothers will still have their Stormravens of course, but again are in competetion with other choices. They are also quite expensive even for fliers.

 

Another key element to consider is what the opponent is concerned about. If they are worried about fliers themselves, they might take an flier to run interfence, or their own Quadd gun.

 

Lastly, what about the ground forces of opponents? If your opponent forks out points on fliers then they might be light on the ground in other areas. As an example, Dark Eldar players like their Ravagers right? Well each Flier they choose removes a Ravager at a higher points cost which I consider a win for Marine lists!

 

So let's formulate our strategies and tatics based upon the above.

 

I will put some initial ideas later on :)

[Cmdr Shepard]

I hear the Interceptor rule will mean you could potentially shoot down every flier as it comes on the table!

An Interceptor weapon can open fire on a single unit who arrived from reserves. So a quad gun can open fire on single unit (in this case flyer) if you use two FOC then you may have 2 quad guns being able to target two flyers per turn.

[DarkGuard]

As others have said twin-linked weapons should be OK, I may be having to put my Rifleman Dread back in at this rate!

 

The Aegis line looks to be a solid choice, but will be quite pricy with the quad-gun.

 

Another way, if you're one of those heathen traitorous Marines :) could be to ally in a tesla barge from the Necron Codex, it's twin-linked and every roll to hit will be a 6, which grants 2 more hits.

 

And of course, there are our own flyers, the Stormtalon with a skyhammer could be a very good choice with the hull point system.

 

I had the same idea bout Necron.

 

Hey DarkGuard, since you are a moderator I have a question for you about allies.

I wrote a list GK+Necron (may count as Adeptus Mechanicus) can I post it in the army lists forums? It seems the forum policies allow it but I want to be sure. Thanks :P

 

EDIT: removed typing error

 

I think I got the idea for the tesla barge off 3++ to be honest, credit where it's due. It's a very nice AA weapon that's not even AA.

 

And as long as the primary detachment (so main army) is PA then you can post that in the relevant army section. Just be prepared for your Battle-Brothers ire at you allying with the cursed xenos. ;)

[Cmdr Shepard]

As others have said twin-linked weapons should be OK, I may be having to put my Rifleman Dread back in at this rate!

 

The Aegis line looks to be a solid choice, but will be quite pricy with the quad-gun.

 

Another way, if you're one of those heathen traitorous Marines ;) could be to ally in a tesla barge from the Necron Codex, it's twin-linked and every roll to hit will be a 6, which grants 2 more hits.

 

And of course, there are our own flyers, the Stormtalon with a skyhammer could be a very good choice with the hull point system.

 

I had the same idea bout Necron.

 

Hey DarkGuard, since you are a moderator I have a question for you about allies.

I wrote a list GK+Necron (may count as Adeptus Mechanicus) can I post it in the army lists forums? It seems the forum policies allow it but I want to be sure. Thanks ;)

 

EDIT: removed typing error

 

I think I got the idea for the tesla barge off 3++ to be honest, credit where it's due. It's a very nice AA weapon that's not even AA.

 

And as long as the primary detachment (so main army) is PA then you can post that in the relevant army section. Just be prepared for your Battle-Brothers ire at you allying with the cursed xenos. ;)

 

I'll be using the crused xenos for my own purposes ;). In typical GK style :D

Thanks for the clarification, DarkGuard ;)

 

I personally think Tesla destructor is a wonderful A/A weapon, especially if you put it on a Necron flyer and use it like an "interceptor" but OP mentioned non flyer A/A, if I'm not mistaken.

[DarkGuard]

Yes, thade also mentioned not buying anything else as well, sorry there buddy.

 

You mention you have a Rifleman? That'll be a decent AA unit thanks to twin-linked. While most fliers you see will be AV11/12, most only have 2 or 3 hull points and you only need glancings to take them down.

 

In fact, I'd rate Rifleman as one of our best AA weapons at the moment thanks to twin-linked, discounting our very own Stormtalon and the Aegis Line of course.

[Seahawk]

If I'm interpreting my FAQ's, at tleast the Space Wolf one correctly, we use the updated missile launcher rules found in the reference pages of the rulebook, so fun for all your missile launcher Long Fang friends, who also get better Split Fire.

Technically, nobody gets Flakk missiles still. Only the Frag and Krak are standard; Flakk is a bought upgrade, which just isn't available yet. (p.57)

 

 

 

In fact, I'd rate Rifleman as one of our best AA weapons at the moment thanks to twin-linked, discounting our very own Stormtalon and the Aegis Line of course.

They shall forever be known to me now by their more entertaining (and accurate) name: Flakka-dreads!

[Cmdr Shepard]

If I'm interpreting my FAQ's, at tleast the Space Wolf one correctly, we use the updated missile launcher rules found in the reference pages of the rulebook, so fun for all your missile launcher Long Fang friends, who also get better Split Fire.

Technically, nobody gets Flakk missiles still. Only the Frag and Krak are standard; Flakk is a bought upgrade, which just isn't available yet. (p.57)

 

I heard players talking about getting them for free with their ML, glad to see you made the issue more clear.

I don't have the English rulebook yet, my Collector Edition will arrive soon or so they say. I know there is always some "discrepancy" when they translate the rulebook in other languanges.

 

So do you confirm even in the orginal English text the Flakk missile is clearly an upgrade you have to buy and not something you get for free with your ML?

I ask because there is a growing debate on it in my gaming group.

 

Thanks for the info :tu:

[Seahawk]

"All missile launchers come with frag and krak missiles as standard, and some have the option to upgrade to include flakk missiles."

It's pretty darn cut and dry there with no room for debate. Flakk isn't standard and must be an upgrade option in the codex. No codex yet has the option, soo...

[Cmdr Shepard]

"All missile launchers come with frag and krak missiles as standard, and some have the option to upgrade to include flakk missiles."

It's pretty darn cut and dry there with no room for debate. Flakk isn't standard and must be an upgrade option. No codex yet has the option, soo...

Thanks, as I said translation sometimes makes things less clear.....

My flyers are happy. They feared all the possible "free of charge" A/A fire few players wanted to deploy, now their pilots are less concenred -_-

[DarkGuard]

In fact, I'd rate Rifleman as one of our best AA weapons at the moment thanks to twin-linked, discounting our very own Stormtalon and the Aegis Line of course.

They shall forever be known to me now by their more entertaining (and accurate) name: Flakka-dreads!

 

:lol: I actually lol'd there. I think I'll try and strong arm that term into common parlance.

[thade]

Not sure I like what seems to be the theme here...that I need to buy another kit. One that I previously kit-bashed for a now nigh-useless model. :rolleyes: Poor Dreads.

 

I'll still use 'em in fun lists, of course.

 

Anyway, either heavys (Devs) and a TL-autocannon Dread is a lot of non-specialized anti-air...a few 6s will glance a few of the speedy ones out of the sky.

 

Meanwhile, any that are Transports need to "switch to Hover mode" (which they declare in their Move phase and it lasts until their next Movement phase) can be hit as normal.

[AndyTau]

I think you're overestimating the threat of fliers.

 

Let's establish a few things here.

 

1) They have a nasty alpha strike

2) They then have difficult turning and keeping targets in range

 

I've played about 6 games of 6th - 1 tau, 3 world eaters, 2 daemons - and I didn't use any skyfire.

 

My Tau shot down the storm ravens using mass twin linking

My World Eaters rushed across the board (thanks to mandatory reserving of fliers) and by the time the fliers were on the board, were inside their flight arc

Daemons have the body count to simply not care

 

Strategies to beat flyers without using anti-air

 

1) Use the points you save to take control of the board and destroy a large portion of your opponents army turn 1

2) Use the lack of incoming firepower to clog the center of the board. with 18" + 18" movement, it is impossible to keep the center of the board under the sights of a flyer

3) Use mass infantry in cover and go to ground as the rule - ride it out with 3+ cover and snap fire back if you have the weapons.

[Lucien Eilam]

Ug, what a dumb name. Merged the two existing names, so unimaginative.

 

They didn't merge the existing names. Flak is a real world term for AA fire, originally from German "Fliegerabwehrkanone" -air defence cannon. They've just 40ked it up with an extra k.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Daemons have the body count to simply not care

 

Curiously the Daemon army I'd like to build for 6th Edition is full of Flying MC, who will reduce the body count :P

I don't know if this approach would be competitive but I'd like something different from my usual projects....

I though Flying MC could deal with flyers...

 

Anyway sorry if I got a little off topic :)

[AndyTau]

I've always preferred nurgle/slaanesh, which tends to be hordey so that the troop choices can actually do their job.

 

The flying circus isn't nearly as good as you think it is once you review how Grounding works.

[Captain Idaho]

Been thinking that one of the biggest things to do is prioritise your firing order. If you are going to fire your Landraider with Twin Lascannons at fliers then it's probably best to fire them first since they stand a better chance of getting a destroyed result if they hit, which means if you have already glanced a Flier once from your Quad gun you've basically wasted your Quad gun fire. However, if you are firing the Lascannons first then destroy a flier, you can fire the Quad gun at the other flier (or afterwards if a squadron, like Vendettas).

 

And then there is the alternative; if you have already put a glance or two on one flier then it's probably better to fire the Quad gun first since it stands a better chance of glancing at least with one of it's shots, so the Lascannon fires elswhere.

 

Regarding Flying MCs; if they are Swooping to move close, make sure you hit them multiple times to bring them down with a thump! If you manage to ground a Flier, don't heistitate to take advantage of this and shoot the thing/assault it to finish it off before it gets up again.

[Cmdr Shepard]

I've always preferred nurgle/slaanesh, which tends to be hordey so that the troop choices can actually do their job.

 

The flying circus isn't nearly as good as you think it is once you review how Grounding works.

Yes I know it. I just wanted to build the army because I find it a fun one :D. Since I have a lot of armies, and everytime I build them with competitivity in mind, I thought to build a fun list.

 

If I'm not mistaken, I'm not expert about chaos daemons, all the daemons save are invul. So grounding will not remove the model's save.

I think flying MC may be easier to maneuver then flyers since they are usually smaller.

 

Anyway, as I said, I'm not an exepert on daemons :)