Okay. Flyers. How do we deal with 'em?

[Atlantic]

Fliers make me pretty uncomfortable right now. I don't really feel like the lack of anti air fire at the current stage of the game is at all appropriate. I understand they want to sell air planes and terrain, but infantry ought to be able to handle fliers a bit more easily.

[Grey Mage]

Why should it be easy?

 

They have very low AVs in many cases- alot of the Xeno ones can be taken down with some lucky shots from bolters! Or Heavy Bolters in every single non imperial case. TLAC dreads? You got them- twin linked still works with AA, so why not give it a whirl?

[Atlantic]

I'm not worried about the vehicles. They are paper, few of their weapons are ap3.

 

However, I'm not a fan of the flying monstrous creatures. Those guys are pure awesome and tough as nails. They really don't need to be that hard to hit too.

 

 

I'm also not saying it has to be easy. Just give me one or two guns that my foot sloggers can use that I don't need to roll 6's to hit with.

[Captain Idaho]

I do actually agree though; GW do need to provide some decent anti-air weapons for infantry. I think Dreadnoughts and Tactical squads should be given actual weapons which a new and designed purely for anti-air duties.

 

Something like this:

 

Flakk Cannon S8 AP- Heavy2, Skyfire (AA only)

 

Anyway, fliers are making me uneasy, particularly AV12 ones used in numbers. A Quad gun will only go so far!

[bystrom]

"All missile launchers come with frag and krak missiles as standard, and some have the option to upgrade to include flakk missiles."

It's pretty darn cut and dry there with no room for debate. Flakk isn't standard and must be an upgrade option. No codex yet has the option, soo...

Thanks, as I said translation sometimes makes things less clear.....

My flyers are happy. They feared all the possible "free of charge" A/A fire few players wanted to deploy, now their pilots are less concenred ;)

There's a very long thread debating/arguing over it in the OR; things that may pop up in your gaming group.

 

The problem to me isn't flyers, its that there are AV12 flyers. AV10 and AV11 flyers can be shot down with your massed infantry weapons, but AV12, you usually can't. And they're not that much more expensive than other flyers.

 

Though giving weapons that only can shoot well AA doesn't sound unreasonable (not like the missile launcher found in the BRB, which can shoot whatever it wants). While I haven't faced flyers, I feel that a single quad cannon is a bit exposed. Its like having a single AT unit, it'll just get focus fired to death if your opponent wants to.

[Cmdr Shepard]

The problem to me isn't flyers, its that there are AV12 flyers. AV10 and AV11 flyers can be shot down with your massed infantry weapons, but AV12, you usually can't. And they're not that much more expensive than other flyers.

 

Though giving weapons that only can shoot well AA doesn't sound unreasonable (not like the missile launcher found in the BRB, which can shoot whatever it wants). While I haven't faced flyers, I feel that a single quad cannon is a bit exposed. Its like having a single AT unit, it'll just get focus fired to death if your opponent wants to.

 

Stormraven is more expensive than any other flyers and it's the only "all sides" AV12 flyer. I have two nice stormravens but I know they will be shot down.

[Captain Idaho]

It's Vendetta squadrons which are the problem though.

[Cmdr Shepard]

It's Vendetta squadrons which are the problem though.

 

Moving flyers squadrons will be problematic. They must remain at 4" from another model in the same squadron but must move at least 18" with a max 90° pivot. If you are not able to move 18" and within 4" from another model they are destroyed (well onely the models that are unable to move 18" while remain within 4" of course)

 

Unless I miss something I believe this will limit the effectiveness of flyers squadrons. Correct me If I'm wrong, I'd like to field an allied Vendetta squadron :P

[Captain Idaho]

Actually you bring up a very interesting point; fliers have a minimum movement therefore the braver and more aggressive player has less to fear from fliers because they will fly past their targets.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Actually you bring up a very interesting point; fliers have a minimum movement therefore the braver and more aggressive player has less to fear from fliers because they will fly past their targets.

 

Well 90° pivot gives still a good manoeuvrability, especially if you plan your route a round ahead, making small corrections to the flyer trajectory until you reach the point where the 90° pivot will allow you to engage "rear targets". I'm aware this will require a good degree of skillfulness.

 

Remember you will always have a 45° fire arc while you make trajectory's modifications.

 

I really like the concept of flyers and their presence makes the game more logical (air support is essential in moder warfare too) but I fear my own flyers will not perform as I wish and since they represent a fair portion of an army I hope they will not be the reasons of defeat.

After all the hype it wouldn't be pleasing performing worse then you could have done without them, right? :lol:

[Schultzhoffen]

The problem (as has been mentioned) are flying MONSTROUS CREATURES. They have high toughness, plenty of wounds, vector strike, etc, etc...

 

Facing winged Hive Tyrants or Daemons WILL ruin your day.

 

One Icarus Lascannon or one Quad Gun will get maybe one shot/volley before said flying MC is among your guys (perhaps you take off a wound or two...) and then the dying begins.

 

In case you've misunderstood - the dying of YOUR units. Vector Strike and Hammer of Wrath is the real worry.

 

Now imagine facing several winged MCs.

 

The guys with Daemons as an army are already rubbing their hands/claws/tentacles in glee.

[Brother Navaer Solaq]

In case you've misunderstood - the dying of YOUR units. Vector Strike and Hammer of Wrath is the real worry.

 

Now imagine facing several winged MCs.

 

The guys with Daemons as an army are already rubbing their hands/claws/tentacles in glee.

 

+1 bump this.

 

I have seen the Daemon MC in action and it was destructive. The only thing that stopped it was another MC. Off topic...

I wonder if there is an MC model that counts as a heavy slot that can ally with codex marine armies?? I would hate to have to get a dreadnaught to stop an MC if possible.

 

As for fliers, I can only think of 6 max fliers for certain PA armies. But as I have read in this thread that would woefully leave the player weak ground forces.

 

Necrons and IG are excluded because dedicated transport and vehicle squadron rules for the armies.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I wonder if there is an MC model that counts as a heavy slot that can ally with codex marine armies?? I would hate to have to get a dreadnaught to stop an MC if possible.

 

Eldar Wraithlord?

[Grey Mage]

Actually you bring up a very interesting point; fliers have a minimum movement therefore the braver and more aggressive player has less to fear from fliers because they will fly past their targets.

 

Well 90° pivot gives still a good manoeuvrability, especially if you plan your route a round ahead, making small corrections to the flyer trajectory until you reach the point where the 90° pivot will allow you to engage "rear targets". I'm aware this will require a good degree of skillfulness.

 

Remember you will always have a 45° fire arc while you make trajectory's modifications.

 

I really like the concept of flyers and their presence makes the game more logical (air support is essential in moder warfare too) but I fear my own flyers will not perform as I wish and since they represent a fair portion of an army I hope they will not be the reasons of defeat.

After all the hype it wouldn't be pleasing performing worse then you could have done without them, right? :D

Vendettas have hover mode now. So they can just be skimmers at the start of any turn, and then start flying again the next turn. Its not without its problems, but it makes them incredibly maneuverable compared to other flyers.

 

Also remember that squadronmates need not move at the same speed, and coherency is done after all models have made their moves... I just dont think its likely to result in alot of dead flyers.

[Captain Idaho]

Basically, WD needs to have some decent anti-flier upgrades/fortifications so we can stand a chance against armies dominated by fliers, which of course will be accepted by tournaments (only ToS needs to accept these things for other tournaments to follow suit).

 

It's incredibly frustrating to be honest, because Daemon armies can flood defences with flying units and all we can get is a single fortification which can shoot them reliably. I don't want to change the theme of my army to include fliers myself, so we need to find a solution here!

 

We know if a flying MC is shot it has a 1 in 3 chance of being grounded, which enables us to pour fire into or charge as appropriate. (is it hit or wounded, I forget and am at work?)

 

Dreadnoughts might stand a better chance since there's no more 2D6 penetration roll, but only against the smaller ones or the ones with less attacks. Still, not reliable to counter charge in.

 

What about Challenges? As Marines we can let a Sergeant take then automatically fall back. Alternative, Marines all get S6 at initiative against them now, so declining the challenge when you have a large squad is a good tactic.

 

I feel our universal S6 will help a lot against flying MCs, since there's not a Daemon with a higher initative than 4 and can fly, or else they take a different Mark and aren't T6! Not sure on Hive Tyrants, but at least they can only take 2 at most!

 

Lastly, from what I remember (book at home) the owner of a flying MC declares they are diving (counting as a jump infantry MC) in their own time, therefore if you voluntarily fall back you stand a reasonable chance of escaping then have a turn to shoot them as normal.

 

So maybe we do have a chance here! :(

[Cmdr Shepard]

Actually you bring up a very interesting point; fliers have a minimum movement therefore the braver and more aggressive player has less to fear from fliers because they will fly past their targets.

 

Well 90° pivot gives still a good manoeuvrability, especially if you plan your route a round ahead, making small corrections to the flyer trajectory until you reach the point where the 90° pivot will allow you to engage "rear targets". I'm aware this will require a good degree of skillfulness.

 

Remember you will always have a 45° fire arc while you make trajectory's modifications.

 

I really like the concept of flyers and their presence makes the game more logical (air support is essential in moder warfare too) but I fear my own flyers will not perform as I wish and since they represent a fair portion of an army I hope they will not be the reasons of defeat.

After all the hype it wouldn't be pleasing performing worse then you could have done without them, right? :(

Vendettas have hover mode now. So they can just be skimmers at the start of any turn, and then start flying again the next turn. Its not without its problems, but it makes them incredibly maneuverable compared to other flyers.

 

Also remember that squadronmates need not move at the same speed, and coherency is done after all models have made their moves... I just dont think its likely to result in alot of dead flyers.

 

If Vendattas use hover mode they can be destroyed in the old fashioned way, it won't be necessarily a "one shot kill" but there is a huge difference between hitting them on 3+ and hitting them on 6.

Anyway Vendettas are not the only flyers with hover mode. Stormravens have hover mode and they are AV12 all sides.

 

Depending on the "table cowding" you may have porblems in moving all the "squadronmates" at least 18": I'm not saying it will result in a great number of crashing flyers but it may be problematic under certain circumstances (for example table crowed with hordes, since you cannot end your movement on an enemy model, even if you are a flyer :P )

Beside when you make your maneuver to engage, for example, mid-table ememies you risk to expose rear armour to enemy fire.

I'm a huge a fan of flyers but these "gameplay aspects" cannot be ignored.

 

Vendettas are still among the best flyers in the game, especially due to their cost and their weaponery.

I may buy one or two more vendettas and see how thw squadron performs...

 

@ Captain Idaho:

Flying MC must take the "grounding test" every time they are hit.

[Captain Idaho]

@ Captain Idaho:

Flying MC must take the "grounding test" every time they are hit.

 

Ah that was it! Better than wounded in that case. To clarify though, it is hit by a unit and not every hit.

[Cmdr Shepard]

@ Captain Idaho:

Flying MC must take the "grounding test" every time they are hit.

 

Ah that was it! Better than wounded in that case. To clarify though, it is hit by a unit and not every hit.

Yes, I think so.

If a unit fire 6 shots you should be able to force the check. Anyway grounding them may do a little damage if the MC is a daemon since it will keep it's invul save, and the "big stuff" has good invul saves...

Being forced to snap-fire only is a marginal adversity for most of them...

[thade]

How do the Night Scythe and Doom Scythe defenses work? AV11 at first look seems like "Hit on 6, Glance on 5s, three times and it's toast" which a hail of bolter-fire from two or three squads could muster. How does Living Metal work nowadays? Any other shenanigans I need to worry about? (Other than the core rules perpetual night-fighting limitation.) Jink saves, right?

[Captain Idaho]

Nah, Living Metal is just a way of preventing Shaken or Stunned results, it's still just AV11. Hit it with a decent strength weapon and it'll blow up!

 

For most fliers, Jink only comes from Skimmers unless they want to ruin their own shooting and choose to "Jink" - counting all of their own shots as Snaps Shots. However, the weapon systems on Necron Fliers are still pretty tasty, since you have twinlinked Tesla Destructor weapons and that means every roll of a 6 to hit nets the Necron player 3 hits!

[Grey Mage]

Yeah, all skimmers get jink if they move, but flyers have to sacrifice for it... wich is nice.

 

Assuming you dont ind allies- like say the ultramar PDF etc- you could bring a small hydra battery for about 300pts, including troop+hq.

[Captain Idaho]

I have been contemplating this actually! A Primaris Psyker, Veteran squad of plasma death and then a Hydra squadron would be pretty awesome really.

[Cmdr Shepard]

I have been contemplating this actually! A Primaris Psyker, Veteran squad of plasma death and then a Hydra squadron would be pretty awesome really.

If you know you are about to fight against flyers a Hydra squadron will be amazing. However if you play against a army with no flyers Hydra won't be very effective against ground targets, sadly.

[Captain Idaho]

Been thinking about fliers and something has been niggling me; just how effective is a single Aegis Defence Line going to be when you consider a single heavy weapon firing at normal BS won't be that decisive against armies full of fliers (i.e. Necrons and Imperial Guard) whilst the other armies and their fliers shouldn't be too decisive or just too heavily armoured to reliably destroy them with our single firing weapon.

 

What do other people think about this?

[Ricter]

Been thinking about fliers and something has been niggling me; just how effective is a single Aegis Defence Line going to be when you consider a single heavy weapon firing at normal BS won't be that decisive against armies full of fliers (i.e. Necrons and Imperial Guard) whilst the other armies and their fliers shouldn't be too decisive or just too heavily armoured to reliably destroy them with our single firing weapon.

 

What do other people think about this?

 

Interceptor, plus the weapon is difficult to remove. It's also rather cheap for its damage output, such that if they're focusing on it, that allows your other units more time to shoot down fliers.