shortysl Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 I'll say this now: I don't have the rulebook yet, so it's not as stupid a question as it may seem. Vindicare Assassins have the ability to target a specific model with their shooting attacks, without having to roll a 6. How does this interact with the Look Out Sir! rule? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255155-vindicare-assassin-and-look-out-sir/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 If the character takes a wound from the Vind. than he can use "look out sir" if a model is 6 inches or closer to the character. On a +4 the character passes the look out roll and the wound is taken on another model in the unit. This only works on characters not non character models. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255155-vindicare-assassin-and-look-out-sir/#findComment-3104606 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted July 2, 2012 Author Share Posted July 2, 2012 if they character takes a wound from the Vind. than he can use "look out sir" if a model is 6 inches or closer to the character. On a +4 the character passes the look out roll and the wound is taken on another model in the unit. This only works on characters not non character models. That's what I was afraid of. Characters are my target of choice with my Assassin but i guess now I'll have to kill them the old fashioned way. Cheers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255155-vindicare-assassin-and-look-out-sir/#findComment-3104617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Characters with the Independent Character rule actually get Look Out, Sir! on a 2+, just f.y.i. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255155-vindicare-assassin-and-look-out-sir/#findComment-3104642 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted July 2, 2012 Author Share Posted July 2, 2012 Characters with the Independent Character rule actually get Look Out, Sir! on a 2+, just f.y.i. Thanks for the info. Guess I've now got 145 points spare in my Grey Knight army list..... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255155-vindicare-assassin-and-look-out-sir/#findComment-3104649 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Actually guys, this is wrong, as; 'Deadshot: Wounds causing by the Vindicare's shooting attacks are always allocated by the Vindicare's controlling player' Codex: Grey Knights, pg. 53 Look Out Sir! is an allocation by the enemy, which Deadshot overrules. Remember, codex > main rulebook. So no, you get to pick which model takes the wound (they can allocate the hit all they like, but you choose who takes the wound) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255155-vindicare-assassin-and-look-out-sir/#findComment-3104841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 As per the BGB: 'When a wound(or unsaved wound) is allocated to one of your characters, and there is another model within 6", he's allowed a Look Out, Sir attempt....On a roll of 4+, the Look Out, Sir attempt is successful. You must pick a model from the same unit within 6" and resolve the wound against them instead.' So this satisfies the condition that the wounds are always allocated by the Vindicare's player, as Look Out, Sir applies after the wound is allocated. It is then taken by a poor grunt who jumps in front of the bullet and dies a tragic death. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255155-vindicare-assassin-and-look-out-sir/#findComment-3104860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sothalor Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Well, I guess you can still use the Turbo Penetrator rounds to shoot at "Metal Bawkses!" It looks like Shield Breaker rounds still work, as stripping the Invul Save occurs upon allocating a wound but before any saves are taken. Err... Hmm... I suppose looking at RAW, these events actually happen at the same time? Both the Shield Breaker and "Look Out, Sir!" occur "when a wound is allocated". I guess you could dice off to see which one happens first? Can I be a complete dick and argue that "Look Out, Sir!" as written only occurs for "a" wound, and hence if I fire a Turbo Penetrator at your character he still takes 1 of the 2 wounds even after a successful "Look Out, Sir!"? ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255155-vindicare-assassin-and-look-out-sir/#findComment-3104889 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Realistically, though this is 40k, so realism is unreal, I'd say it would break the shield of the intervening model, as it wouldn't quite make sense for it to magically break the character's shield. Still, there's no RaW on it, so I'd be fine with a dice off until they hopefully FAQ it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255155-vindicare-assassin-and-look-out-sir/#findComment-3104905 Share on other sites More sharing options...
confused_gordy Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Its very clear on RAW. The wound is ALLOCATED by the vindicare, (character looses his wargear) then a look out sir attempt can be made, then if passed, the wound is RESOLVED on another model. Dont see why this needs FAQing EDIT actually on further reading, the very bottom of the lookout sir rule specifies it is a reallocation. so the new target would take the wargear loss. either way not really and FAQ issue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255155-vindicare-assassin-and-look-out-sir/#findComment-3104959 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Urgh, sigh, so our uber sniper can't even do his job now. Cheers GW :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255155-vindicare-assassin-and-look-out-sir/#findComment-3105255 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Can I be a complete [bleep] and argue that.... Of course you can be uncivil, unsporting, and impolite...but why on earth would you want to? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255155-vindicare-assassin-and-look-out-sir/#findComment-3105454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Urgh, sigh, so our uber sniper can't even do his job now. Cheers GW :) Ahhh... But he can still one-shot most vehicles better than a Broadside. He can still take aways those special weapons guy without rolling sixes. He helps getting rid of those termies coming back in the metagame. He went from "must take in every lists" to very good ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255155-vindicare-assassin-and-look-out-sir/#findComment-3105519 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 He went from "must take in every lists" to very good :) This is probably not an accident. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255155-vindicare-assassin-and-look-out-sir/#findComment-3105520 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Yeah, well he is the best anti-tank gun in the game now (not even railguns reliably pen as him). TBH though, if he can't even snipe characters like he's meant to, I'd rather just take a cheaper Tech-Marine with a conversion beamer and blow up tanks/infantry with railgun blasts. Tech-Marine hands out a lot more bonuses too (repairs PsyDreads next to him, boosts a ruin). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255155-vindicare-assassin-and-look-out-sir/#findComment-3106539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 He can still cap non-sergeant upgrade characters: the "free" guys in units with the melta guns, missile launchers, etc. That's also pretty worthy and oft-overlooked...until now. You can also use him to force some awkward decisions on opponents...did you chew their unit down to a few models, all of which are upgraded? Shoot the big bad IC. He rolls a 1 and takes the hit...or he rolls a 2+ and then choses a still valuable model to take the fall. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255155-vindicare-assassin-and-look-out-sir/#findComment-3106564 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 He can still cap non-sergeant upgrade characters: the "free" guys in units with the melta guns, missile launchers, etc. That's also pretty worthy and oft-overlooked...until now. You can also use him to force some awkward decisions on opponents...did you chew their unit down to a few models, all of which are upgraded? Shoot the big bad IC. He rolls a 1 and takes the hit...or he rolls a 2+ and then choses a still valuable model to take the fall. True, and for squad leaders 'Look Out Sir' is only a 4+, so it could be worse. I just find it annoying his 'Deadeye' rule is meant to mean that you choose who dies, and instead yet another overrule mechanic blocks it. That's probably how I'll be using the Vindicare now. Torrent the hell out of the unit first with my other shooting, then pick off exposed characters or force those tough decisions you mention. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255155-vindicare-assassin-and-look-out-sir/#findComment-3106820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
XaClocKWorKoX Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 you would only be killing 6 models ( 7 if lucky) at the most. Im siding i can use that 145 points else where and just glance the ;) out of everything to no hull points. if i get a pen then woohoo. ill probably roll a 1 and still get a hull point removed Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255155-vindicare-assassin-and-look-out-sir/#findComment-3106850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 you would only be killing 6 models ( 7 if lucky) at the most. Im siding i can use that 145 points else where and just glance the ;) out of everything to no hull points. if i get a pen then woohoo. ill probably roll a 1 and still get a hull point removed What are you basing this off? I've used Tech-Marine with conversion beamer before, he does different things. Although having no maximum range is pretty handy, especially with 'Prescience' re-rolls from Coteaz or a cheap Inquisitor Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255155-vindicare-assassin-and-look-out-sir/#findComment-3106867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Psycannons, I assume. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255155-vindicare-assassin-and-look-out-sir/#findComment-3107104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
worloch Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Why does my Vindicare keep getting better at exploding tanks over time, and losing ability to 1 shot 1 kill infantry characters? Turbo Penetrator shot has, on average, an AP roll of 17. That's a Pen on anything in the game, as the average. AP 1 in 5th meant +1 on the Damage Result table, and in 6th it means +2. In both editions, that means a 50% chance that the vehicle is destroyed. Against a Character, however, the same shot has a 50% chance (4+ to wound) to do 2 wounds ... So I can explode a tank every turn just about, but I can't even count on taking out a 3 wound character with no Invulnerable save in a couple shots? IMO, (not that anyone asked or anything) they need to retool the assassins to be more in line with their theme. For instance, my ideas for the Vindicare are to: 1 - Deadeye special rule updated - No LoS! can be made, and he always wounds on a 2+ with shooting 2 - Go back to the 1 use bullet of each type: - Hellfire - If it wounds, unit takes a pinning test at -4 (Special shot that explodes/melts/horrible death the wounded model, causing everyone else to hit the dirt) - Turbo Penetrator - If it wounds, model makes a Toughness test and suffers instant death on failure - Shield Breaker - As now, no change Very Scary sniper that doesn't specialize in sniping vehicles :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255155-vindicare-assassin-and-look-out-sir/#findComment-3107464 Share on other sites More sharing options...
XaClocKWorKoX Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Psycannons, I assume. Yep based upon I can now make 25 shots from one squad rerolling Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255155-vindicare-assassin-and-look-out-sir/#findComment-3108173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Yep based upon I can now make 25 shots from one squad rerolling Yeah, that Terminator Inquisitor+Purifier combo is going to be quite popular at 2k+. Still, I'd expect more than 7 dead guys from that much torrenting (even without any Rends). I think they will need to FAQ 'Deadshot', so it functions as intended. Until then, Vindicare is just an anti-tank gun. 2 - Go back to the 1 use bullet of each type: No, that was silly and unnecessary. Being able to choose different ammo each and every turn is what makes him worthwhile now; only getting one Turbo or one Shield-Breaker per game would detract a lot from his current usefulness. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255155-vindicare-assassin-and-look-out-sir/#findComment-3109887 Share on other sites More sharing options...
worloch Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 2 - Go back to the 1 use bullet of each type: No, that was silly and unnecessary. Being able to choose different ammo each and every turn is what makes him worthwhile now; only getting one Turbo or one Shield-Breaker per game would detract a lot from his current usefulness. I respectfully disagree - while I not like how they managed the limited shots before, I don't think the mechanic of limited shots with extra functionality is innately flawed. As of now, do you really make a choice about what shot to use, or is the choice made for you by virtue of your target? And isn't target priority dictated by efficiency? And, in my opinion, the currently most efficient targets for the Vindy are Vehicles - in 5th edition he certainly had an AT role in my army, and I can't see that really changing in 6th. Indeed, if we don't get a FAQ as you stated, his usefulness in a non-AT role goes down even further. If you accept that his best targets will be vehicles, and ergo you will be firing most every shot you get at vehicles, your choice of shots is predetermined - you will choose the turbo-penetrator. With my proposed changes, you get choices that are more powerful than you get now, but are limited in how many times you can do them. By incorporating the 2+ to wound from the current Hellfire in to the basic shooting profile, you have to acknowledge that the current shieldbreaker shot becomes more powerful as well, as (iirc) it only functions after you successfully wound. This is your anti-misc-annoying-inv-save shot. My new proposed Hellfire gives him a good chance to lock down an infantry squad for a turn, but only a single turn, as he can only fire 1. This is your anti-infantry shot. My new proposed Turbo-Penetrator would be very powerful against a single enemy character, with a decent potential for 1 shot 1 kill on characters. This would be your anti-character shot. Each shot more powerful than it is now, each useful in certain circumstances, but limited in use so you need to choose carefully when to use them. Anyhow, I don't want to derail the thread and I truly doubt any of the above I've written will matter anyhow - just putting it out there, as it were. I think we all agree that GW should at least add errata to our FAQ that deadshot can't be LoS!ed away. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255155-vindicare-assassin-and-look-out-sir/#findComment-3110461 Share on other sites More sharing options...
worloch Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Double Post Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255155-vindicare-assassin-and-look-out-sir/#findComment-3110468 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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